Points to remember:

• Changeovers (even on 6000' reels) require threading at least 2 projectors for a given run. Many shows will require 3 or more rethreads per feature. Platters require only ONE thread to present an entire feature. (Most rocket scientists will already side with me here.)
  
• Platters do not need rewinding. How much of your time will be WASTED rewinding reels of film? With 30 screens, how many rewind benches will you have to have? Also, can you imagine that even if your 30 plex was only running short movies, that you will have to be rewinding 60 reels of film every couple of hours!!! Yeah, that's a BIG time saver.
  
• Once a film is screened once on a platter...that's it! The reels will always be in order. Every single performance of a changeover presentation allows for the possibility of a projectionist mistake. Think about all the chances for loading reel 3 instead of reel 2 on the second machine! How bad would it be if the new Disney movie suddenly turned into a sex scene from loading a reel from another movie!!!
  
• Platters do not require handling of the film, thus the prints will AUTOMATICALLY stay in better shape. No longer will reel changes be all scuffed and cinch marked up from all of that unnecessary handling.
  

Expect more points to come as you make your argument.

Obviously, you never took rocket science, but that is another story...

I am presumming that eventhough you are allowing full automation you just are not going to allow me to use my beloved Kinoton FP-30E-R projectors, eventhough the Europeans get to use them. Because if you do, your arguements ALL start to fall pretty darn fast...there are no rethreads, the projectors can hold up to 12K per so just about every feature ever made will fit on two machines, if they are in frame on the first thread up, then they are in frame forever, rewinding is at a leasurly 100fps so no cinch marks...basically it starts to become the operatorless booth...but I would suppose that you would do some hand waving on that and force a more conventional booth (ie Century or Simplex) so here we go on that route

You are threading a projector and a platter, I am threading two projectors. Time difference, negligable and depending on who is the quicker threader upper, it could go either way...not to mention clean up more spills!

>>"How much of your time will be WASTED rewinding reels of film?"<< Since I hope you would allow power rewinds, not much personal time at all...it would be measured in seconds per reel based on the distance of the rewinder from the projectors.

>>"Once a film is screened once on a platter...that's it! The reels will
always be in order."<<

You got me on that one, I guess platters do have a virtue.

>>"Think about all the chances for loading reel 3 instead of reel 2 on the
second machine! How bad would it be if the new Disney movie suddenly
turned into a sex scene from loading a reel from another movie!!"<<

Having seen this happen on a platter house, it isn't unique to reels. Presuming these theatres do not share film bins, the chances are about as slim as threading the wrong print on the platter. Furthermore, go with large hub (8") and large flange reels to ensure all but the longest films played on two reels).

>>"Platters do not require handling of the film, thus the prints will
AUTOMATICALLY stay in better shape. No longer will reel changes be all
scuffed and cinch marked up from all of that unnecessary handling."<<

I can't remember the last time I saw cinch marks on reel changes...they are so easy to avoid it would like me poking fun at platter people for diagonal scraches because they didn't feed the film on the platter properly, sure it is possible and has happened way too often, but it certainly isn't an essential part of the process.

And if you can have a film cleaner on your platter/projector, I can have em on my rewinder/projector. At night, my reels will be in their nice bins.

Now during the day...I'll be walking, leasurly rethreading projectors, rewinding, trimming the focus and what ever else need be done...you will be waiting for the gun to go off for the massive rethread at show change, mine will have been done an hour previously.

Steve

PS The "last fight" really wasn't (and neither is this) and I did as I claimed, I didn't post after I said I wouldn't. We will see how this one goes but tomorrow is Mom's day so I probably won't get a chance to check up. Any time you want to drop it Brad, I'll do the same.

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

No, very few people have those self rewinding Kinoton projectors, so you are correct I will insist on a conventional setup. HOWEVER, I've worked with systems that DO rewind through the projector and what a joke! Constant film damage, over and over. Let's save this argument for a rainy day and stick to the topic at hand though.

QUOTE:
You are threading a projector and a platter, I am threading two projectors. Time difference, negligable and depending on who is the quicker threader upper, it could go
either way...not to mention clean up more spills!

What planet are you from? I can take you any day of the week on my threading a platter vs. you threading a projector. You are failing to remember that for me to reset the platter is that all-so-hard task of giving it a spin, a quick tuck and a pull of the center ring. The actual threading only takes less than 10 seconds! You on the other hand may be able to thread a projector in 10 seconds, but you are forgetting the loading time to run to that rewind bench, grab the reel, make sure it's facing the right direction, get it on the spindle, lock it down, find the first foot of leader (God I hope you add extra leader) and start threading. Oh, but wait...you've got to run fetch a takeup reel too! Darn, you lose. (And what in the heck do you mean by cleaning up spills?)

Your argument that reels are found out of order on platters is correct, but ludicrous when comparing to changeovers! First, the print will be screened once regardless of film transport to verify print condition and that everything is in frame and in the correct order. Well, AT THAT POINT, the ONLY possibility for a screwup is on a changeover setup buddy...and that possibility can happen on ANY SHOW! Where do you come up with this stuff?

I will give you the cinch mark argument. However, you must agree with me cinch marks on changeover houses are more common than platter scratches from a misthreaded platter. I've yet to see a changeover setup that did not cause cinch mark scratches after a decent amount of running the same print, but I will take your word on it...at least until I visit the Uptown and can verify one way or another.

Film cleaners...oh but you forget that "brute force" pull of the weight of the reels my friend! As your reels come closer to an end, there is more tension exerted onto the film at the film cleaner. That's not a good thing. You lose again.

Finally, as to me "waiting for the gun to go off", when is the last time you've been to a 30 plex??? That's NOT how things work. There are movies starting every 5-10 minutes...NOT ALL AT ONCE! Go get a paper tomorrow and check the start times.

Where's that darned referee 'cause Steve is down and no one is counting!

(And yes for those listening in, no we're not really angry at each other. This is something we do from time to time for fun.)

jasoN

------------------
"That's what life is - a series of down endings. All Jedi had was a bunch of muppets." -Dante Hicks
 

Steve:
Now during the day...I'll be walking, leasurly rethreading projectors, rewinding, trimming the focus and what ever else need be done...you will be waiting for the gun to go off for the massive rethread at show change, mine will have been done an hour previously.

Hmm, I can clean 12 theatres and re-thread all the projectors and not be under too much pressure. If we're talking 30 plexs that means they'll have a dedicated projectionist and I won't have to mess around with that theatre cleaning shit. I would have not problem keeping up, no 'gun' going off. And as far as you 'leasurely around' I should hope not. What do projectionists do between shows at multiplexes? Everything you do except waste time rewinding film, and therefore have more time for tearing down/building up prints and checking screens more often.
 

I can't imagine having to mess with changing reels all day long. At least in my plattered booth I can mop the floor, clean the port windows (half of them), take double the amount of time checking presentations, and such while the platters are doing their job. Changing reels would be nice for screening rooms where they show the film one time, but would be a major pain in the ass for a multiplex. It's hard enough getting people to thread in frame. At least once the movie is started and it is in frame, there is no concern of it going out of frame as the reels change! Changeovers are an outdated and very foolish way of doing things when the technology is here with platters. Are you like 100 years old Steve?

 

>>"No, very few people have those self rewinding Kinoton projectors, so you are correct I will insist on a conventional setup."<<

They are now a current off the shelf product (Kinoton FP30E-R) so it is wrong to disqualify them and it would be a knock down punch that you just couldn't recover from. Is the only way you can make your arguments is to disqualify anything that doesn't help your arguement? Because right now YOU LOSE!

>>"The actual threading only takes less than 10 seconds! You on the other hand may be able to thread a projector in 10 seconds, but you are forgetting the loading time to run to that rewind bench, grab the reel, make sure it's facing the right direction, get it on the spindle, lock it down, find the first foot of leader (God I hope you add extra leader) and start threading. Oh, but wait...you've got to run fetch a takeup reel too!"<<

Gee Brad I have run platters but have you run reels? The T-U reel comes from the upper spindle, it doesn't have to be fetched. On the reels I don't have to spin the reel or pop out the center ring and such nor thread through a cluster, tree 15-30 feet of rollers, take up, move the takeup cluster to the appropiate platter. Again, it will be a wash as to who is faster here. The "spills" point was a (rather poor) joke..."quicker picker upper" (ie Bounty) vs the "quicker threader upper."

Regarding out of order, as usual you simply omit that which doesn't fit your case...I consided that once a platter is properly made up, you have eliminated the out of order, upside down reel issue. But are you now also refusing me large reels to ensure my print is on just two reels? If not, then out of order is also rather hard on reels. My other comment was towards that both systems can fall victim to threading the wrong feature (have seen it done many times). We have one customer that anodized their reels different colors to avoid the possibility.

>>"I will give you the cinch mark argument. However, you must agree with me cinch marks on changeover houses are more common than platter scratches from a misthreaded platter."<<

No I won't give you that one...Lets just walk around the country and look at all the platter related scatches out there but if it is just you and me running things (the theme of this fantasy or nightmare arguement) lets just agree that neither are an issue.

>>"Film cleaners...oh but you forget that "brute force" pull of the weight of the reels my friend! As your reels come closer to an end, there is more tension exerted onto the film at the film cleaner. That's not a good thing. You lose again."<<

By this I presume you don't even allow me torque motors for the reels (just like Brad, never allow technology to help another's arguement). Ok then, hence the large hub reels...the tension is minimal through out (I've only been doing it for decades), no problem using film cleaners or, as I said I set one up on the bench. If I get to use my Kinotons, then I use the Kinitronics cleaner/anti stat...get two cleans per show without applying a pertrolium product to the film.

You mean in your fantasy 30-plex you can't run 30 separate titles at once? Shoot, I had mine (31 screens)running art, rep and first run because I could. Yeah, the typical mega-plex runs 2-3 prints of the same titles (it was coming up as an arguement on the stupidity of the 30-plex). I mean if you wanted to run a 10 -15 plex build it that way with bigger rooms. But the "typical" 30-plex is all that much more easy to run, in fact it is as easy to run a modern 30-plex on reels as an old 10-plex.

>>"Where's that darned referee 'cause Steve is down and no one is counting!"<<

Not by a long shot...you have tied my arms and one leg but I still haven't lost, not even close.

One last question Brad, what year would you consider the piviotle year for the platter, that is when it became the norm for operation?

Steve

PS To the others, I would like to keep Brad's comments separate.

Dustin, your argument about changeovers not improving an operator's likelyhood of checking his presentation has proven false by observation...the nature of being forced to come by a particular screen once per show and actually be in the proximity of the port tends to make them more aware, no guarantees since slothdom is seemingly a virtue to some. In Brad and mine's case, I don't think this will be an issue.

All the rewinding and rethread does to the operator's time is insure that they come to each screen just once per show, are you trying to tell me that you don't even do that? Is just one check up per show too much?

In actuallity, there is just as much time for cleaning ports, mopping floors and volumes more time for print "build ups and tear downs" They go quicker and start sooner (in both directions).

"Aha! Jason must not have tried FilmGuard yet! That knocks the static argument right out the port window."

-----

nope. i have to talk the cheapskate into buying some. wish me luck

jasoN

------------------
"That's what life is - a series of down endings. All Jedi had was a bunch of muppets." -Dante Hicks
 

As far as tear down/build up speeds, I should think reels would take slightly longer. Sure, your saving on that one splice, but since the film is on reels you'd presumably have a harder time finding the other splices, not being able to see the slight color difference in the edges of the reels. But I'm sure its a difference of a minute or two, not really a factor in this argument.
 

Steve, could you run a 30 plex with all 20 minute reels, manually rewinding each reel and not miss a single changeover? I would pay good money to see that. Of course, anyone who installs a changeover booth in a 30 plex would be a complete moron.
 

You are making this specific argument: "changeovers vs. platters". Am I correct? That is your argument, right? Well my friend, if you want to make a generalization on that premise then you most certainly can NOT bring in a Kinotone or other rewinding through the projector machine! Nowhere in the repeated debates did you say "self rewinding projectors on reels vs. platters"! Got it? Good, because not very many theaters out there have that equipment. YOU LOSE THERE!

YES, I have run many a show reel to reel with changeovers. Yes, the takeup reel can come from the upper arm, but not always. Many theaters (ones I've worked in actually) have various different sized reels and you can't just simply stick a 22" reel and expect it to take up a 26" reels worth of film! In many cases I had to specifically calculate out how things would work so I had enough "takeup room" on a spare reel. I realize that is probably not the case in your booth, nor would be in your fantasy booth with Kinotons, but that does happen out in the regular world and should not be dismissed as a time waster. Regardless, I can still outthread you in speed on "workload time" if we were side by side and I started rethreading the platter while you took the full takeup reel off, mounted the next reel and got it threaded. (This is assuming we can both thread projectors at roughly the same speed without errors.)

How about those damned bent reels? Every theater has at least one. Try taking up a show on a reel that has a slight bend to the flange and watch it dump and mangle the print! Oops, you lost again!

Oh, but I haven't even touched on the constant possibility of belt breaks! Yet again, a mangled mess of film all over the floor. Another punch straight in Steve's face and he goes down again!

By the way, I would think it would be YOU who would need the Bounty paper towels to keep the damned leader off of the floor. The leader NEVER touches the floor when I thread. Not a single frame. I'll bet yours does.

On out of order, YES you may use 2 reels, BUT that possibility of presenting a show in the "wrong order" CAN STILL HAPPEN! Stop saying it can't. That is a lie.

Torque reels? Large hubs? Steve, again this argument is "platters vs. reels". Why must you have all of these handicapps just to run reels without problems? The typical changeover booth will have 24" reels (floating or non) with a standard 4" core. Never have I seen a changeover booth with torque motors. Now I'm not saying they don't exist, but they are NOT commonplace. You must run your shows with brute force pull, a typical belt takeup and with 4" cores, otherwise you are admitting defeat right now. If our ref were not on his lunch break, I believe he would agree the most common projector is something along the lines of a Simplex or Century and anything larger than a 26" reel is VERY rare in the typical theater, as well as torque motors. Stop wasting my time stretching for such items and please stick to the basic argument at hand.

Film cleaners. Let's tackle this head to head one day. You can use your sticky rollers or brushes 10,000 times per performance and it will still be a solid victory for me.

Your question on the pivotal year for the platter is senseless. That has no bearing on these discussions. I presume you're trying to force me into a corner with some lame pre-planned comeback like "well reels have been in use since the beginning of film, de, de, de". You're stretching again, Steve.

Here's one you will never understand...changing trailers! I can beat you at this game on actual time taken and I'm willing to bet you money you will sit there and say "but how can that be? I just don't understand!"

Since you seem to want to get into handicaps, let's say we both fall down the stairs and break one of our arms and it is in a cast and sling. I can keep operating on platters, can you with large reels?

Why are we having this argument? Last time I checked, both of you guys (Steve & Brad) were equipment "SUPPLIERS". <grin>

Ever heard of the Eprad Sword? I used to run one just because I thought it was neat to watch!

Um, I was only dealing with a single screen at the time.

I will address both sides here.

Steve, your argument reflects a degree of professionalism and pride that is often lacking in this industry today. You desire to have a hands on presense to insure that the film is projected to the audience in the best manner possible.

Brad, you are seeking the same end result while projecting to 30 seperate audiences.

Platters are a simple economic necessity in today's world.

Platters can scratch. I realise this.(yeah right)

Platters don't scratch film! People scratch film!

With proper training and professionalism, we can rule out the scratch argument.

I'm not taking sides here, but who would benefit the most by selling double the amount of projectors, lamphouses and rewinds to each theatre it serviced?

The increased ticket cost would most certainly NOT make the customer any happier.

As for spending the night in bins, would the film be any less happy sleeping under a nice, soft, static free cover?

Every part of the print (except for the leader) will be untouched by human hands for the duration of the run. What? Your techs wear gloves!? Ummmm Hmmmmm..... Sneak in some night when they don't expect you.

Film is incredibly fragile. It gets worse every time you touch it (gloves or not).

I vote we don't touch it!

Don't take this the wrong way. It takes a skilled operator to show a movie. Frame, focus, optical sound alignment and digital knowledge are a must!

But, the best operator in the world still has greasy, oily fingers!!

The less he has to "touch" the media, the better.

Steve, it's okay!! We still think you are the best!! We (the general public) just don't want to rewind film. (OKAY! I'm lazy!)

1. Reels always in order.

2. Film touched only at make-up.

3. Nasty, filthy film cans removed from the projection area.

4. Quicker operator response to breakdowns without disrupting the rest of the theatre's show schedules.

...What if something plays into the floor when there are 11 change-overs to be made in the next ten minutes?

Nope, there's just no beating a good Alpha Platter used with a Component Engineering SA-10 watching for film motion and presence.

The war's over!! Live a little!

Russ

two i use to work for cinemark tinseltown twenty. I know the types of people they hire to run a booth. lets take a thur for instance.(changeover nights) one time a person i knew had two mispliced trailers and three backwards. easy fix. pull out trailers and replace. trailer changes are also more convenient seeing as that they occur more often in a thirty plex because you simply have more theaters to chang. what are you going to do? rewind each 6k till you hit trailers then rewind to trailer that is to be removed then change it? i can change a trailer in 2min.

next lets look at moving prints. this too will occur more often in a 30-plex including screenings. changeovers. theater percentages, etc. I just put on a couple of clamps pick up the print and go on my happy little way. it seems to me that it would be more of a hassle to move two seperate 6k reels to another proj.(more trips involved here) god forbid yo are moving them from one wing to completely the other side of the theater.

like i said earlier i know the types of people that are tolerated to be in the booth. like bradd said earlier, once it is on the platter it is there. and will run through the right order each time. most people are smart enough to start the wrong proj. especially on a day that you are just plain thinking bacwards. or i have also seen enough times of people deciding to thread soundline backwards how easy is it to change once it is going?

And how much does Goldberg charge for one of these babies? Steve, your mathematics in cost are yet hurting again. Get back up and let's go another round!
 

"Of course, anyone who installs a changeover booth in a 30 plex would be a complete moron."

Two Questions:

1) How many screens of changeovers have you ACTUALLY run by yourself at one time? I could imagine myself running two screens at a time if I hustle. Of course, there are pros out there who could probably do that in their sleep.

2) Don't you think that even in the most modern googolplex there should be at least one house with changeover capability? There could be a platter there for "normal" showings but I think places like Cinemark would show a lot more independant or art films if they didn't have to worry about building up and breaking down for a one-off show.
 

Your second point would be convenient, but would require a second operator just to watch that one show. I don't see it as being cost effective in payroll (building/breaking down time vs. babysitting one feature).

 

"thats my story and im sticking to it!"
 

Where is Chapin Cutler of Boston Light and Sound when you need him?

I figure it would be a small matter for one guy to run the special show while the other guy pilots the rest of the booth. It'd only be for 2-3 hours. We do things like that all the time when one guy has to go downstairs to fix a popper or something.

If the changeover system was automated with big reels, it would be even easier. It would STILL save time because you can tear-down the first half of the show while the second half runs.