Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: threading

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Posted by Ethan Harper (Member # 472) on 05-16-2000, 10:28 PM:

i know this might be a stupid question to debate or ask about, but it will probably get erased if it is not worthy.

O.K. here we go.

how do you thread(considering that we are using platters here)
1. bottom up
2. top bottom
3. stupid old-skool method of threading to proj. motoring leader onto floor then to take-up platter.

i personally was traineed top-bottom but then realized all of the flaws that are included in this technique. I am proud to say that i go bottom-up. this way no film has touched the floor to drag dirt from the floor to the platter to the print.

Just curious on others methods and why.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-16-2000, 11:48 PM:

I always "thread up" and insist all operators I train learn this way. It is a quicker and more accurate method and ensures the leader never hits the floor.

The old "motor the leader onto the floor is nothing short of PATHETIC!" (I would say no offense here to those that thread like this, but I would be lying.)

Many "top to bottom" threaders use a clothespin to secure the leader from hitting the floor or place the leader into the holdback sprocket before commencing threading from top to bottom. This is perfectly fine and gets the same end job done as threading bottom to top, but really is a waste of time.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-17-2000, 01:36 AM:

I certainly don't use a clothespin. I put the film in the bottom sprockect and close the pad roller, securing it from falling to the floor. I then thread the failsafes and engage the platter. (all of this is after djusting the intermittent to the "stop" position---to where is has JUST stopped, this way I get the loops right every time). I then thread down like normal, and once I get to the bottom, I relieve the slack on the bottom pad roller and reclose it. Loops are always perfect this way since the intermittent is set the way I set it.

This way works, is fast, and keeps the leader off of the floor.

Posted by Dwayne Caldwell (Member # 417) on 05-17-2000, 04:00 AM:

I normally thread bottom up so I don't have to mess with letting loose the slack through the bottom pull down sprocket that you usually have when you lock the leader down on the bottom sprocket pad roller then thread top to bottom. That's not to say the method Joe uses is inferior. It's just a preference for me. I do, however, have to use Joe's threading scheme on Cinemecannica projectors. I could never get used to threading through the sound drum assembly backwards on those things. It might have something to do with that big ass sound drum pad roller.

I was trained with the clothespins at GCC, but quickly got out of that habit when a fellow projectionist showed me the bottom sprocket pad roller trick, and I can't imagine using a clothespin for anything other than sealing an opened bag of chips. But the projectionists at AMC showed me the pile the leader on the floor trick! That's just sad.

------------------
The man with the magic hands.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 05-17-2000, 10:07 AM:

When training new operators, I show them "top-down" threading, and use a clean plastic trash can to place the leader in. I find this is easier to teach. If you give a totally inexperienced person a length of film and a projector (but don't actually show them anything) they will intuitively start at the top.

Like anyone, I (myself) have little tricks to thread platters (top-down), yet keep the film clean without trash cans. I worked at one theater where threading "bottom-up" was the best way, but only that one place. So, it's not a personal preference thing; it really depends on the booth, equipment, etc.

I need to add that I have a certain reason for only teaching "top-down with trash can" threading. Most of the people I have to teach are ushers who do _not_ want to learn. It's harder work, for which they get no extra money for. Many are openly hostile ("This sucks, man!") I get four shifts (while the theater is open) to teach them to at least thread. This is in addition to doing my own, regular tasks. After that, they are officially a "projectionist" and are put to work, until they quit or screw up so bad that management can't take it any more. If I try to teach them in a manner that appears to be counter-intuitive, (even if it is better in reality) it will take longer. Most of them are gone within six months. You might ask why we would hire such people, and the answer is upper management has reduced the quality and the pay for the job. Now, our only hope to keep the place reasonably staffed is to try to keep churning people through. If we got tough, we would have no staff at all.

Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 05-17-2000, 12:37 PM:

I have taught my students from the start bottom up. Once you have the platter threaded, you get the leader through the bottom roller on the projector, through the failsafe and locked onto the last continuous feed roller, pull tension and voi'la. No leader on the floor. Hardly EVER.

I also feel that this gives them more consistent loops. (Which is VERY important on the Christies)

Posted by Scott D. Neff (Member # 185) on 05-17-2000, 12:38 PM:

This used to be an ongoing debate within our company. Many of us were imported from UA where we ran Norelco FP-20's without working motor switches. So we were all taught to thread the platter - then the projector from the top down.

I think we're split in half now - half the company does that, the other half pulls the film to the top feed roller and throws the leader on the floor, threads the projector and then the take-up platter.

I find it to be a waste of time personally. I can thread all 4 platters - assembly line style, clean the projectors, assembly line style and then right before showtime, just pop the film into the projector and away we go.

When I first started managing the 4-plex - I had cut all my leader to be almost PERFECT - so there was VERRRY little leader that would touch the floor if you threaded my way.

In my year's absence... other managers have swapped films with other theatres and given away my perfectly cut, brand new(ish) leader. I'll admit... I don't have the energy to care about that again...

Besides, I keep hearing rumors of Film-Guard.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 05-17-2000, 12:59 PM:

After I read Brad's tips on threading I tried buttum up and just could not get used to it (everyone here was taught top down). So I devised my own method for keeping the leader off the floor. When I finnish threading up the platters I 'engage' them. This keeps the leader off the floor while I thread the projector. I can do this because six of our platters are old strongs, which have switches on each platter that you have to turn to rewind, payout, etc in order for them to work. On our newer strongs, I just turn the 'platter' switch on the Christie projector off. When I'm done threading the projector I just have turn the switch on and tug at the leader and I'm ready to go. This method actually works faster for the Christies, the way everyone else does it, you have to walk back to the platters to engage them after your done threading. I save about 15 or 20 seconds this way.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-17-2000, 02:47 PM:

John Walsh,

I disagree on teaching newbies. If you take someone and bring them into the booth and teach them top to bottom threading, that is all they know. Later, when you try and show them a better method (threading up), it is far more difficult for them to change. Just read Dustin Mitchell's post. He's having a hard time converting now.

If you take someone who's never touched film and doesn't know anything, he/she will learn threading "up" just as fast.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-17-2000, 03:14 PM:

I have tried "threading up" and never really got the hang of it. I started with 16mm reel-to-reel setups and had always threaded "down"; when I started with 35mm (also reel-to-reel), I just stuck with the same approach; I was always careful to never let the film touch the floor. Part of this was the force of habit, but part of it was practical: with 35mm, I first put the film in the intermittent sprocket (after advancing the intermittent by hand) in order to get the framing right; then, I set the other loops. When threading "up," I'd have to thread the machine, then re-set every loop after putting the film in the intermittent sprocket.

Of course, all of this is a bigger issue with platters, where it's much harder to avoid getting film on the floor when threading "down"; I was taught to thread the platter side of things first (both feed and takeup), then the projector. Yes, I admit that film still touches the floor occasionally, but it's only the part of the leader that would never touch the projector head anyway.

The "motor the leader onto the floor" idea sounds absolutely awful, and I consider myself fortunate that I've never seen it done in practice.

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 05-17-2000, 03:19 PM:

I was originally trained in the AWFUL practice of threading top to bottom and motoring the leader through to the necessary point. After working with Brad several years ago I picked up on the bottom up practice and it made total sense to me. It was pretty hard at first, kinda like having to learn to thread all over again, but once I got it down, it was 3 times easier, and faster than top down. Plus this way the leader NEVER touches the floor, the leader dosen't get as beat up over time, and my loops are always right on.

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 05-17-2000, 09:46 PM:

I hate to say it, but I was trained to motor the leader onto the floor

. I found salvation about seven years ago when a new manager watched in horror as I ignorantly laced (threaded) the machine. Since then our leaders are staying much more cleaner, duh! Anyway, not that I'm proud of that, but I just thought I'd share my dirty secret with you.

P.S.: I was just a kid back then working for minimum wage. Don't hate me because I didn't think. (The old man scared me.)

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-18-2000, 02:11 AM:

Scott,

That part of the leader that "never touches the projector" collects dirt, and that dirt when wound onto the takeup ring will transfer it's dirt to the next layer of film. It doesn't take long for one layer of leader to transfer the dirt to the next layer of film. That's why at most theaters, the first thing to hit the screen (Coke ad, Moviephone, preview, whatever) always looks like crap.

Force yourself to learn bottom to top threading or to at least keep that leader off of the floor via Joe's method. I promise you that you WILL see an improvement.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-18-2000, 06:25 AM:

Just to be diffent I thread from the middle going each direction which I find exedingly helpfull is setting loop sizes with various penthouses on top
Since I prefere reel to reel I just pull the leader down and wind it onto the lower reel so no film sitts on the floor
On a platter I just hold the excess

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-18-2000, 06:42 AM:

For platter operation, the "bottom to top" pattern seems to work the best for most people. With top-down, it is more difficult to keep film from touching the dirty floor.

Brad is absolutely correct that dirt picked up by leader eventually transfers to the rest of the print.

Always do your best to keep the film and leader from touching dirty surfaces. Keep the rewind bench, makeup table (MUT) and floor clean and free of debris. A quick wipe occasionally with a damp sponge or mop will pick up the dust and film chips that buildup during the workday.

Kodak's new VISION color print film has a conductive back-side layer, to minimize attraction of dirt by static charging, and eliminate annoying static shocks during rewinding. A quick way to show the benefit of this is to quickly rub a short length of film between your fingers or on a pant leg to try to generate static, and hold it near a dusty surface (e.g., a dirty ashtray). The static charge on older films will attract the dirt to the film, the new Kodak VISION (2383, 2393) films will not.

Unfortunately, some ads, trailers, policy and date snipes, and thread-up leaders are not made using the new conductive film, so static-attraction of dirt can still be an issue with them.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-18-2000, 01:43 PM:

Hey John,

How about making a double thickness super-strong mylar leader out of Kodak's new film stocks with the anti-static backing?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-18-2000, 02:38 PM:

Thicker "leader" materials are made on different equipment. The state-of-the-art machine that makes Kodak VISION Color Print base cost over 200 million dollars, and is optimized for making 4.7 mil (120 micrometre) polyester film base.

Why do you want the added thickness? A polyester leader that is twice as thick would be very stiff. Kodak's subsidiary FPC sells a variety of leader material:
http://www.fpcfilm.com/US/en/motion/FPC/fpc/proc_mach_specs.html

In particular, Item 9100 is a 7-mil (180 micrometre) clear blue polyester leader that is quite stiff and perforated with normal KS-1870 perforations. I've sometimes recommended it as an alignment tool. Unfortunately, it does not have an emulsion (no possibility of an image or framelines), and no conductive layer. Hopefully, FPC has a leader that will fit your needs.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-18-2000, 03:19 PM:

John,

The thicker leaders last longer. Get yourself a stretch of Xelar leader and compare it to the standard NT Audio Visual blue mylar leader most theaters use. The Xelar is top notch and will outlast the NT/AV leader by far due to it's added thickness.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-18-2000, 07:28 PM:

The NT leader is painted on a blankstock from germany
The Xetron leader is actually printed on Kodak estar stock

Posted by Bryan Redemske (Member # 354) on 05-18-2000, 10:07 PM:

bottom up. always. but i think i'm the only one so the prints still look like crap.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-18-2000, 11:03 PM:

Bottom to top also. Plus, keep the emusion towards the ceiling both to and from the projector.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-19-2000, 04:54 AM:

Nope, I run the emulsion on the rollers...always. That means for non-operator side platters, run the soundtrack away from the screen always and for operator side platters, soundtrack toward the screen always.

Not running the base side of the film on the rollers cuts down on the shedding if you're running the film dry. It sounds crazy, but try it! Also, this will keep twisting to a bare minimum.

(Is there a magical gravitational thing I'm missing by keeping the emulsion pointing away from the earth? )