A customer of ours was running a mini festival that, as it turns out, included an older film with a magenta Variable Density track....guess what...no sound! Red on red apparently still gives you red.

Leave it to modern technology to promote an inferior system and then force it onto the industry. Yes I said inferior. Compare the quality of the infrared led reverse scan system using the traditional doped track over the Red LED system on ANY track. Or if you prefer, staying with a filament based lamp (tungsten or halogen) also using reverse scan on a traditional doped track...

This red LED business is not all it is cracked up to be, technically or otherwise. Just who is behind this? And remember the EPA is NOT regulating the doped based track out of exisitence, someone/something else is.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

I didn't think the EPA was behind the LED thing- I just thought it would cost labs less to make non silver soundtracks. Not a bad reason, especially when current processors and amps used today can increase the slight lost volumne without too much noise added, and the industry is moving to digital tracks. I just wish the studios would be as interested in helping theaters as they are in helping themselves.

The last common use of variable density tracks was, what, in the 1950's? I would think that after 40 years, that film's owner could spring for a new negative with a regular VA soundtrack.
 

The seperation alone kicks the stuffings out of any exciter/solar cell configuration I have ever seen.

What film are you having problems with? It may be a problem isolated to special venue or "art" films.

Theatres wanting to play older or otherwise non-compliant films should simply retain their original sound head optics.

Heck, we have a whole pile of exciter lamps, lenses and power supplies sitting in a room waiting for someone to muster the effort to cart them to the dumpster.

Maybe we should try to get them to the special venue theatres that need them instead? Someone should really coordinate this effort as the industry IS currently switching to LED reverse scan and allot of equipment is becoming obsolete to them.

Seriously, there is a bunch of equipment being thrown away across the country every day. We donate allot of stuff to a theatre that is now owned by WV State College. They host film festivals and events there that would not be possible without outside help.

That theatre was also recently re-seated with the Irwin Citations that were removed from the Park Place when it was retro-fitted to stadium seating. The same crew that installed our new Mobileros did double duty re-installing the Citations for WVSC (eliminating the crew's travel costs for the college).

We also offered a couple of old lamphouses and xenon power supplies, but they have a local dealer who keeps their Peerless carbon arcs running smoothly. The old Kniesley power supplies are quite literally being used as door stops in one of our older theatres, but they work.

Anyway, special venue theatres are an important part of our history. Changing technology is making it increasingly more difficult for classics to be shown in main stream theatres.

To provide others with the ability to present them is the least we can do. It doesn't cost us anything. It might even reduce the dumpster bill!

Russ

Was this a dye-transfer print? Do you know the title of the movie or the year the print was made?

I'm wondering how a traditional exciter lamp could have read such a soundtrack anyway. It seems that the red part of its spectrum would also leak through, much as the infrared part would leak though with the proposed cyan tracks...?
 

Pay particular attention to the sections on Machine Design and Optical Sound Processing, and the chemical formula for the soundtrack developer.

By converting to cyan dye-only soundtracks, the soundtrack redeveloper step can be eliminated. This step involves coating a thin bead of a viscous, caustic developer solution on the wet film as it is being transported at hundreds of metres per minute through the machine. If the bead isn't coated evenly, you get noise and "pops" in the analog soundtrack. If it bleeds or splashes into the picture area, you get ugly "blotches" of silver. These problems are a significant source of waste for the labs, and occasionally find their way into theatres (see the threads on "Mission Impossible 2" print "blotches" or "Erin Brockovich" sound "thumps"). So eliminating silver soundtracks will improve overall print quality.

Converting to cyan dye-only analog tracks will allow simplification of the process. A simplified process could eliminate the first fixer, first fixer wash, soundtrack developer, and soundtrack wash-off. This will reduce the use of chemicals, and greatly reduce the use of water by the laboratories --- significant environmental advantages.

Film laboratories already recover almost all of the silver in the raw stock film, EXCEPT for the silver left in the soundtrack. Most used prints are recycled or burned for fuel, with the silver recovered. But some still find their ways into landfills or unsupervised incineration. Eliminating silver from prints is environmentally the RIGHT thing to do.

The invention of efficient red LED light sources for sound readers has enabled the long-desired conversion to dye-only tracks. Almost ALL new analog sound readers installed today use red LED sources, with a majority of theatres already converted. The conversion to cyan-dye only tracks is scheduled to begin in January 2001 (with cyan dye prints sent only to theatres equipped with red LED readers at first), and scale up quickly once about 85% of theatres are equipped with red LED readers. Theatres with tungsten "white light" readers or infrared LED readers will NOT be able to play cyan-dye only soundtracks. Red LED readers are backwards compatible with most older prints, including black-and-white.

Information on Silverless Cyan Dye-Only soundtracks is on the Kodak website at:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/sound/index.shtml

Dolby Laboratories' information is at:
http://www.dolby.com/press/m.pr.0005.CyanDye.html

The UltraStereo Lab (maker of the Jaxlight) site is:
http://www.uslinc.com

Component Engineering's (Bill Purdy's) site is:
http://www.componentengineering.com

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

The cyan track...no matter how you cut it is an INFERIOR track. That is, it will yield more noise and distortion than the applicated track.

There is not question that the reverse scan optics are a big improvement to the traditional forward scan system used in the recent past but please don't confuse reverse scan with RED leds...and don't confuse RED LEDs with infrared LEDs.

The infrared LEDs were much more stable (don't need current adjustment over thousands of hours) and yielded a superior quality sound from the traditional applicated track than either traditional exciter lamps on the same track or the RED led on ANY track.

For those not familiar, the Variable Density track came in a couple variants...the best and most popular was B/W but some were done on the magenta layer and it is this one that turned up.

As far as backward compatibility, this industry has been based on that concept, the SMPE was founded on the concept of standardizing criteria so things would be compatible.

I don't question that the Cyan track has benefits from a cost standpoint but it is a cost over all else solution. This at a very mature time in the motion picture industry where most exhibitors are wondering when Digital Cinema will be something they WILL have to deal with.

Furthermore the system for playing back cyan tracks just isn't roubust enough yet. Those LEDs are expensive and have a comparatively short life and need constant tuning to maintain proper level.

This is being rushed and has the feel of an agenda rather than good engineering practice.

That being said, I encourage the development of the cyan track and the continued testing but to scare exhibitors with a bogus January 2001 date (and some of these articles seem like they can be read as a scare to exhibitors) is just plain wrong.

John, do any of those articles state that the cyan/red led system will be less noisy and less distortion (or just the same)? What does a cyan track sound like after say pad rollers scuff it a little?

Respectfully,

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

I would need authorization to release the items, but I don't get the impression that anyone wants them.

Unfortunately, it is all from Ballantyne sound heads.

The lenses are also of the "white" line variety and not the "red" line narrow slit design.

Not much in the way of resolution, but they can read silver tracks.

Russ
 

So confident are you on the SR's ability on this one.

I too am amazed by how good SR can be but...It does (particularly the Cat. 222 SR/A) have a problem with the current LED light source on a scuffed print...you will get a frying bacon sound that exaggerated by the SR...the customer had to switch to "A" to calm it down to the point of usability.

I cetainly agree that the LED or just red light technology will improve and that the problems I am finding today will be resolved but that day hasn't come yet. I don't know about you, but we get scared calls by independants about this cyan track thing. Everytime USL or Dolby issues an advertisment or statement on it they get nervous and add up the cost of impementing a process that just lets them hold their own...it is a lot of money.

As I said in a previous post...I encourage the continued development of the process but I don't like the rushed feel of it and the scare tactics being used against exhibitors to make it happen by a premature date. The SMPTE is waffling on it as well...first it was when 80% of theatres had converted, then they will implement the cyan track...since exhibition didn't rush out and convert, they are now rattling their red leds at them. If the EPA had legislated the change, then the exhibitors could then have their enemy and know why the change is necessary but at the moment, it seems agenda driven.

And don't forget...everything I have read/heard is that the cyan track will be higher noise and higher distortion than existing tracks...lowering the quality of the analog sound just doesn't sound like a good solution at the moment.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

Theaters have already lost some backward compatability. The large majority can't run 1.33 prints or push-pull tracks.
 

Push pull tracks will reproduce through a SVA processor just reverse the centre and the surround processor outputs
 

The cost benefits of the cyan track are so minimal that it won't affect ticket prices one cent. So why should exhibitors spend the money on every screen just to stay where they are? For the benefit of getting an inferior soundtrack?

For the exhibitor and the film going community, where are the benefits?

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

Once, I got a p-p track print- only I was running a mono system. I ended up putting masking tape on the edge of the lens. That at least got me through.

It's true that just buying a lens for 1.33 would "maintain' backward compatability. But, the same could be said for this issue: If that theater paid to have the regular exciter lamp and solar cell re-installed (probably even cheaper than buying a 1.33 lens) backward compatability is maintained.

As to the question; what are the benefits to the exhibitor and the film goer, you win hands down. As far as I can see, there are none.

But, I wouldn't mind helping labs reduce their cost, even if it is fairly small. Studios and exhibitors are supposed to help each other. Having this 'change-over date' looming before us has given us a chance to pry money from the home office to upgrade older soundheads. They wouldn't part with the money otherwise.

If I was working that night, and had no sound, I would certainly be upset. But IMHO, in this case, the end justifies the means.
 

What do you mean by upgrade? If it is to get reverse scan optics, then go for it. I too would take the led with reverse scan optics. In this case, the led is coming along for the ride. I can certainly appreciate your desire to get the reverse scan system (by any means available).

As far as backward compatible, you and I will have to disagree on this one. For me it is a paramount importance.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

First of all, there is no problem getting enough density in the cyan track to keep it quiet---with or without SR. By this I mean the density at 66o nanometers which is where the cyan dye has its peak density and where our LED's have there peak output. However, you can expect increased noise from some of the older formats, but it is not necessarily a function of the red LED. Many years ago I had the misfortune to run some of those damn magenta VD tracks and they were pathetic then and I am sure that they haven't gotten any better. Peoples expectations were a lot lower in those days.

I mentioned that there is another possible noise causing factor. This is that the light emitting from the LED is rather well collimated which means that dirt in the track will be in pretty sharp focus and heard as pops etc. With the old slit lens system there is a lot of diffusion before the light hits the cell and this tends to lessen that type of noise. This is just one of those things we don't like to talk about.

------------------
Bill Purdy
Component Engineering
 

Even by the advocate's admission, the cyan track on a clear day will be at least 2dB noisier than an equivalent applicated track. I don't consider the exisiting optical track to be god's gift to sound, noise wise. Furthermore, the collimated light hitting a scratch or light abbrasion seems to excite SR noise reduction, making it that much worse.

I have been known to take some Scotch "magic" tape and place it over the LED to make it's light more diffuse and less then noise...of course you pay for this in light output.

The manufacturers of the leds may not like to talk about the increased noise but before the industry forces it onto people, it should be addressed. Just look at how much better the leds have gotten since they first came out.

Now if your fine company can come up with a dual light source (say using a fibre optic) such that we can have either white light or red without having to mechanically readjust anything, I'd be excited!

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

It seems to me now that we perhaps should reconsider the decision to get red light kits to the projectors, or at least wait and see what happens.

On one hand, we play quite a few new features, especially during the annual Göteborg Film Festival, and the cyan dye prints will undoubtedly show up before long. As I understand it, these prints won't work with traditional tungsten soundheads such as ours.

On the other hand, we are normally a revival house and show a lot of old prints, including a number of variable density prints.

So if I understand all of you correctly, we will face trouble no matter how we choose. Am I correct?

And yes; we have 1,33 lenses.
 

The Cyan tracks are not a definate thing. They are a proposed item that still has to go though testing to prove it's worth and still requires industry acceptance. Failing that, they would need some sort of legislation on a worldwide basis to force the issue.

The LED light source does have some advantages over the traditional tungsten filiment exciter lamp. The biggest advantage is that the uniformity of the illumination across the scanning area is more even.

Often associated with the LEDs is the inclusion of "reverse scan" optics, though that isn't always the case (eg the JaxLight by USL). Reverse scan optics dramatically improves frequency response, crosstalk and channel separation.

One thing I am considering for "rep" houses that have Norelco DP-70s is using a combination of JaxLights and Exciter Lamps depending on the show. On some DP-70s, the slit could use to be narrowed a bit though.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
 

What can you tell me about these LEDs? Are they expensive? Do the require extensive rebuilding of the soundheads? And most importantly, how's the sound (and otherwise) quality? Any known problems?

And do they handle magenta variable density tracks?