This is topic Prevost & Fumeo 35mm projectors in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 05-28-2000, 07:32 PM:
Anybody here have any experience with Prevost and Fumeo 35mm projectors? I understand that Xetron distributed them here in the USA in the early 80's. Are these machines any good?
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 05-28-2000, 10:30 PM:
Ken: I just picked up an independent with several of the Prevost 93's. They look like a copy of an Ernemann and all of mine leak like sieves. I haven't been able to tackle that particular problem just yet, but I assume they're leaking from around the intermittents, or maybe the cover gaskets.The dual aperture plate seems to be hard to index solidly, but it could be that something's worn.
I don't care for the huge sprockets... too easy for the film to ride up off of (found that out with my loops), and more chances to have pitch errors.
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Better Projection Pays!
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-28-2000, 10:34 PM:
Ken-Tim, A chain that I did service for a long time ago tried out a P-93 projector. There were 4 problems right off the bat. 1, The motor(a sync motor) got so hot on that you could bake cookies on it. 2, They leaked oil in droves as it all collected up front by the motor inching knob and there was no place for it to go but out all over the floor. The older 35/70's had a front that tapered back down and allowed it to drain. There is no cure but to attach a hose to the front part that juts out and drain it to a bucket, or back to the sump if you can rig it that way. 3 There was alot of flutter. 4, The gate kept popping open. We eventually tried 3 different machines all courtesy of Xetron. They did do their part to try to make it work but they were unsucessful at resolving the problems except for the motor problem. They replaced the american made motor with the same one from the 16mm Prevost.
Also write to Gord and ask him as he has worked on quite a few of them.
Mark
Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 05-29-2000, 04:15 AM:
Never heard of a Fumeo, but I've used a pair of Zeiss Favorit 70' (license-built Prevost P70's) for more than a decade, and I love them. It's a matter of personal opinion, of course, but I've always preferred the Favorit 70 to the Philips DP70.The downside is that you can never be sure that a part from one Prevost fits to another Prevost. They all seem to be totally hand-made. Also, the optical sound head really isn't that good. It has all kinds of problems, ranging from problematic side tracking to mediocre optics. Optical alignment is a bitch with them.
Some people also complain about image steadiness, but I've never had any real problems with that.
If you take proper care of the machine, it will run for decades and decades. Our pair's been in almost daily use since 1966.
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 05-29-2000, 10:06 AM:
Mark: Oi! That's the oil problem alright, it's spilling all over the place. Not very encouraging. Do you remember where they leak from?------------------
Better Projection Pays!
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-29-2000, 01:03 PM:
Tim,
I primarily remember them leaking from the inching knob area. Ours was a down tilt setup and alot of oil collects up in the part of the main casting that just out for the motor mount. There is no escape for the oil except around the shaft and out onto the floor. Also the back cover can be a problem too. Xetron used to seal the crap out of the back covers of new machines. Also like the older X-L's they might actually be leaking right through the metal casting. Keep spare drive belts around too. They don't seem to like running in the oil too well. On a scale of 1 to 10 I'd give the P93 a 2.5.
Mark
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-29-2000, 03:03 PM:
All the Prevost 35mm in Canada were the model P55 which is all gear driven the P 90 serries added a very expensive timing belt in the oil bath ( similar to the favoriet 16mm)
The do leak oil It apperars in downward angles and it appears that the oil slinger around the inching nob is at fault
We probably have about a hundred Prevost in use inthe Toronto Area in grind houses and they give very little grief.
The image is rock steady (compared to a Vic5) The only major flaws were the oil issue and getting the sound stabiliser set correctly as the felt pad must have just the right amount of oil
Xetron was the major problem as the P90 serries was based on there demanded changes to the older designs.
It has appeared that every projector that xetron redesigns is a mess
I understand that fumeo only built 16mm machines
The Itallian 35mm machines were
Veronesse
Prevost
Cinemecanica
Microlambda (extinct)
Fedi (extinct)
MicroCine (portables) ((mignon))
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 05-29-2000, 10:46 PM:
Mark, Gordon: Thanks for all the info! Jeepers, I'm in for it, sounds like. A toothed belt in an oil bath?! That just sounds like trouble. ------------------
Better Projection Pays!
Posted by Randy Rock (Member # 454) on 05-30-2000, 11:06 AM:
Ken- When SRO reworked Uptown in Seattle they installed Prevosts (with Xetron consoles, of course). I serviced them in the early 90's. They were "OK". Gate/trap wear were beginning to cause steadiness problems. All three machines were nose-down at a rather steep angle. Wear in the focus rack over the years was such that the machines tended to vibrate out of focus. I was able to cure the focus problem somewhat by resetting lens collars, but cure wasn't 100% satisfactory.They were eventually pulled out 'cause repair parts were taking a year to arrive (if ever), seemingly the fault of overseas suppliers, not Cineplex paper shuffle.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-30-2000, 11:12 AM:
Prevost is usually very good at getting parts out but in the summer all the Italian suppliers shut down for what amounts to a month national holiday
Posted by Trevor Bailey (Member # 75) on 05-30-2000, 04:47 PM:
Ah, Prevost P-93....A chain that I service acquired eight of them when buying a 12-screen complex. I can't speak on how they are when new, but they do not take well to neglect.
- These eight all leak oil constantly, even though at some point, someone tried to use liquid gasket on them. They use O-rings and paper forms as gaskets. I have not been able to obtain replacements that fit correctly.
- They also use rolled pins on the intermittent driven gear, which have a great tendancy to break. You might be able to resolve this using a slow-start on the motor (which these did not have). All but two of these had been converted to Bodine 48R6BFSY 120v single phase 1800 RPM motors.
- The sound head portion is always contaminated with oil and the wiring has a tendancy to loosen and rub against the sound drum.
- Test loops do tend to jump out and it is time consuming to time the shutter or tighten the framing knob assembly.
- It was almost impossible to get the correct hold back springs for the rollers.
- Over three years, four intermittents failed.
Thankfully, these units are finally being replaced with thirty year old Simplexes.
I wouldn't recommend the P-93 unless you have a skilled projectionist that enjoys constantly maintaining his/her machines. Properly cared for on a daily basis, they will probably run without too many problems.
My 2 cents 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-30-2000, 05:10 PM:
Well we have Prevost P55's at the Eatons Centre Cineplex18, The Carlton 9plex and several other grindhouses and they have had to have very little maintance other than the friction holdback in the soundhead
The use of the Bodine motor was a Xetron "improvement" the original ones from italy that were 3 phase were far better
I have always lived in fear of anything xetron improved on
Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 06-01-2000, 05:47 AM:
Gordon,another brand for your list of Italien made 35 mm projectors, but probably extinct. Ufficine (offices of) Pio Pion, Milano.
They were still somewhat available late 80's.
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 06-01-2000, 08:44 AM:
What exactly is the relationship between Prevost and Cinemecannica? Some of their projectors look alike. Were they one company at one time?
Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 06-02-2000, 04:02 AM:
A couple of years ago, I got the impression that Cinemeccanica had acquired the whole (Prevost) company. Today, I sort of doubt it since our tech works for a company selling Cinemeccanica, but still never can resist a less-than-favorable comment about our Favorit 70 (Prevost P70) machines when given the chance. 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-02-2000, 08:06 AM:
I always assumed that Prevost was started by some disgruntled Cinemecannicca employee that also thought that the gate and trap they use is a joke. Unfortunately he didn't know very much about oil seals and O-rings though.
Mark
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-02-2000, 09:59 AM:
Prevost is and has always been an independent company. It maybe older than cinemecanica
Prevost was a very early camera maker
and they invented the flatbead editing table in the early 60's or late 50's
Prevost has resold over the years the cinemecanica towers. There lamphouses used the same reflectors
Most of there older machines didn't leak oil and the machines I got directfrom Italy don't either so I think it is the conversion to Bodine motors and those changes that started the problems
I always fail to understand why people insist on reineventing the well
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 06-02-2000, 12:47 PM:
Gordon, 'reinventing the well'?!Is that like, 'a penny saved is a penny for your thoughts'?
------------------
Better Projection Pays!
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-02-2000, 02:38 PM:
It has been a rough friday it should have been Wheel
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 06-02-2000, 06:35 PM:
Heh, heh! ------------------
Better Projection Pays!
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-04-2000, 11:36 AM:
Here is another projector from Italy does any one know anything about
It is called Micron
I found this picture on an Italian Motion Picture Website that I have since lost 
Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 06-04-2000, 01:02 PM:
According to the leaflet, i read, the PIO PION factory is called "Prima Frabbrica Italiana Apparecchi Cinematografici. Csa fondata nel 1908.", meaning they claim to be the oldest of the Italian makers. Cinemeccano started 1920, basicly building an Ernemann Imperator clone. The two founders seperated after the war, one was the grandfather of the guy that builds Veronese projectors nowadays. This explains the close resembelance between Vic 4 and Veronese Diamant XV b projector.
Cinemaccabnica has the highest output of projectors in Europe, about 1000 units a year, their max. capacity. It is a very traditional company, but uses modern production techniques. All other still existing Italian makers, were, when we visited them a couple of years ago, more or less garage type of toolshops, some using ther original foot cranked lathes, converted to electric motors in 1920+.
At one maker maltese crosses were still totally hand crafted out of a block of iron, Cinemaccanica uses wax molded crosses finalized by hand to precise tolerances.
The Micron was a projector built until the 50's, and the company disappeared. It was not very big, but they also made a couple of VistaVision style horizontal projectors in the mid 50's. I am not quite clear, if the Micron company of today (another garage type maker) making 35 mm portables is a followup, but as I remember it was the grandson or so.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-05-2000, 08:10 AM:
I always felt the Fedi's looked like a Vic4 knockoff
Doesn't veronesse use a barrel shutter?
I have only once seen a picture of the Technirama machine called MicroLambda
The photo was poor and showed a combo optical (vistavision) and a mag soundhead for techniramma
Both were in the same houseing
I also wounderd if the Kalee vistamachines did mag as well for techinramma as I understand the only mag century's were the ones for Williamsburg
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-05-2000, 08:52 AM:
I laways thought that there was a family interconnection thing between at least two or more of the projector manufacturers over there. The designs are too similar to each other for that not to have been the case.
If Brad ever gets around to posting the International Cinema Museum pictures there is a line up of Italian machines in there somewhere??????
Mark
Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 06-10-2000, 01:28 PM:
Fedi and Veronese are very simelar to the Vic 4, gearwise theese are straight helical gear train mechanisms copied from the well known and wide spread Ernemann 4/5 pre-war projectors. The Ernemanns, as well as the Fedi/ Veronese used barrel-type shutters with built in centrifugal fire-shutters, a very economical solution, but with the usual flaws when it comes to lamphouse designs and usable angles of light. This common background is the reason for the simelarity in design.
Another direct Ernemann 5 copy is called "Walthurdaw 5" from Great Britain, which uses the exact blueprints of the original, but different so8undheads were added, as Britain was Western Electric / RCA license area, Italy and Germany were Klangfilm-Tobis license areas.
Antonino Fedi's company stopped operation due to age in the early 80's. The resemblence between the Fedi 15 and the later Veronese Diamond XV b is very close, so I assume, even though never confirmed, there is family business involved.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-10-2000, 08:06 PM:
There was a projector from Great Britian that used a plastic malteese cross in the movement. I wonder how long they lasted? What kind of plastic did they use? It may have been the BTH projector. Anyone ever seen one?
Mark
Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 06-11-2000, 01:28 PM:
I know about the projector Marc is talking about, I do not remember the name of the maker. The gear was made of nylon precision theoreticly lasted for half a year, and was quickly replaced, at reasonable operating costs. I did not hear of any wide-spread installations.
Posted by Philippe Laude (Member # 79) on 06-13-2000, 01:39 AM:
Stefan,
you wrote:
"Another direct Ernemann 5 copy is called "Walthurdaw 5" from Great Britain"
the right name is WAJTURDAW, but this surely doesn't matter for our north american friends.
Phil
Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 06-13-2000, 08:31 AM:
Thanks Phil, I will look it up, it was just from my remembering.
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 06-13-2000, 10:16 AM:
r u tring ta say thjat ammaricans cant spel! everyone nos we ar smartr than anyone els. 
Posted by Christos Mitsakis (Member # 143) on 06-13-2000, 10:32 AM:
John, I still have the impression that you were a quick and correct typist Regards
Christos