Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: EX? Sorry, not with this title...

This is topic EX? Sorry, not with this title... in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-09-2000, 12:31 AM:

OK, so Gladiator is in EX...and so is Pitch Black (!) but wouldn't you think MI:2 would be? I mean, it's not like they didn't have enough time to mix it. (It was supposed to come out last December)

Ahhh.... that was money well spent.

Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 06-09-2000, 01:51 AM:

They probably gave the money meant for the EX mix to Tom Cruise.

Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 06-09-2000, 11:59 AM:

Exactly - what's with that? I was called up just before a session was due to start and asked whether I had EX switched in (we have a Panastereo SP23 with a bypass switch).

'Sorry', I replied, 'This film is not EX encoded'.

They seemed sceptical - I mean, I hate to refuse any request, but really...

Posted by Marty Hacker (Member # 485) on 06-09-2000, 03:01 PM:

I thought Tom forked out some of the money for the movie. Why he didn't go the EX route is besides me(could not have been money issues considering they were able to get Limp Bizkit and put that soundtrack together) but since the technology is out there now it would be great to see more and more EX mixes. Although I enjoy 8 channel SDDS I feel EX is a better enhancement for theater sound. Incidently...to all EX users.....Do you always keep your SA-10's in EX mode no matter what feature it is or do you make sure that the unit is displaying the appropriate mode?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-09-2000, 04:28 PM:

If the film is not encoded in EX, it should NOT be played back in EX.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-09-2000, 06:54 PM:

Brad is correct that only EX encoded films should be played in EX mode. The DTS and now the Dolby SA-10 have auto sense for Ex so that should eliminate allot of the problems with do I or don't I. Hopefully the CP-650 will take care of that problem all together.
Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-09-2000, 07:20 PM:

If you have the Smart FX unit try it as I have found that the CS matrix is very favorable to non ex encoded films especially in theatres that are wide vs there length

Posted by Oscar Neundorfer (Member # 458) on 06-09-2000, 08:03 PM:

Oh, what the heck! I'll go out on a limb here. I am sure there are many who will be willing to saw off the limb I am sitting on!

If you have the SMART ex format decoder, go ahead and play ALL 5.1 digital soundtracks in ex mode. If you don't like it on a particular movie, just turn it off. I am willing to bet that you will like it very much, and there are few films that do not benefit much from this treatment.

And PUH-LEEEZ don't start the "as the film sound mixer/producer intended" argument with me because I don't buy into it for a minute.

Oh well, nothing like a little controversy to liven things up a bit!

------------------
Oscar Neundorfer
Chief Engineer
SMART Devices, Inc.

oscar@smartdev.com

Posted by Russ Kress (Member # 461) on 06-09-2000, 10:47 PM:

Where's my saw!!!!!?? *grin*

My SA-10s do not "auto-sense" EX encoding. Last time I checked, Dolby was still working on it.

Is there a software patch available that will cause the CP-500 to cue to SK-8 when EX encoding is present? Somebody email me!!

Russ

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-10-2000, 02:33 AM:

There currently is no auto-EX for the Dolby SA-10. If somebody knows of a way, explain it in this thread right here for all of us to see so we can do it, too.. And yes, I do have version 1.61ex for the CP500 and I do have the automation cable hooked up between the SA-10 and the CP500 and I do have SK8 programmed for Dolby Digital EX.

Mark? Please explain.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-10-2000, 01:04 PM:

>>"And PUH-LEEEZ don't start the "as the film sound mixer/producer
intended" argument with me because I don't buy into it for a minute.

Oh well, nothing like a little controversy to liven things up a bit!

------------------
Oscar Neundorfer
Chief Engineer
SMART Devices, Inc."<<

Just curious, is that SMART's position on cinema sound? That is, They dont' care how it was mixed or intended to sound?

Again, just curious on that one.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 06-10-2000, 01:42 PM:

I have tested the Smart box, and have to admit, that it worked quite well, even on soundtracks not encoded. Only drawback is the reduced Signal to noise ratio compared to the straight mode. But the audible hiss is not as bad as with the SA 10, and audibly decoding was superior.
I have to admit I never made measurement, so I could just say it works.

Posted by Oscar Neundorfer (Member # 458) on 06-12-2000, 06:42 AM:

>>Just curious, is that SMART's position on cinema sound? That is, They dont' care how it was mixed or intended to sound?

Again, just curious on that one.

Steve<<

Well, Steve, you have certainly taken my comments on the topic of EX and whether all 5.1 soundtracks should be played in ex format mode when using a SMART ex format decoder and expanded it to include the entire realm of film sound!! You may think it is a perfectly logical conclusion to which you can leap, but I assure you that is not the case.

It has been, and continues to be, SMART's position that with the _SMART_ (not other brands)ex format decoder, you should play all your 5.1 soundtracks in ex format mode. If a particular film does not play back well in this mode, then push the little red button to the out position and continue on.

It is also SMART's position that given whatever situation you are in with regard to your booth equipment, auditorium acoustics, speakers, etc., you should do all you can to maximize the presentation for your audience.

It is SMART's opinion that playing 5.1 soundtracks in ex format mode on SMART products gives the customer a better presentation of the soundtrack. From MANY comments we have received in this regard from our customers, this opinion is justified. It may not agree with the opinions of others, but then I do not expect everyone to agree.

There are many things of a practical nature that prevent soundtracks being heard by the audience exactly as the sound mixer intended.

1. The acoustics are different (usually greatly different) from those of the mix room.

2. The sound mixer sits in the perfect spot for sound. The vast majority of your audience does not. Do you give them a reduced ticket price depending on the position in the auditorium?

3. The equipment in your booth is probably different from the equipment in the mix room. There are several sound equipment manufacturers as you well know, and their sound processing is not always exactly like some other manufacturer's.

4. Do you always play the film at the recommended level? What if it is just too loud for your audience or auditorium? Maybe you have sound leakage problems, or perhaps you care about your customers' hearing, so you cut the level a bit. Is that what the sound mixer intended?

5. Do you have the same sub-bass level and extension as that in the mix room? Nothing adds impact like deep, tight sub-bass. Is yours as good as the mix room's?

6. Is your auditorium noise at acceptable levels like the mix room?

Bottom line is this: SMART _does_ care that the best possible presentation, within the limitations of your theater, be provided for the audience. Sometimes that means doing things differently in order to achieve that goal.

Best regards,

------------------
Oscar Neundorfer
Chief Engineer
SMART Devices, Inc.

oscar@smartdev.com

Posted by Marty Hacker (Member # 485) on 06-12-2000, 11:49 AM:

Oscar:

NC criteria issues
Room acoustics (RT-60)issues
Bass Management issues
Even coverage, EQ and SPL issues

Sounds like SMART also is pushing THX sound systems.
hehe

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-12-2000, 02:24 PM:

Think about it....

Sound mixers mix loud sound all day long almost every day. There is a probability that their hearing is slowly becoming damaged. So they crank the levels up even higher so it sounds loud to them!

It is irrelevant what we think.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-12-2000, 06:23 PM:

Yes there is short term hearing loss and mixers are now being limited to shorter shifts because of that

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 06-12-2000, 06:33 PM:

Well, I know very little about sound, but apparently I should know about this-what is EX exactly?

Posted by Russ Kress (Member # 461) on 06-12-2000, 06:46 PM:

Surround EX uses pretty much the same technique that decodes left, center and right in analog stage channels to derive a third "center surround" channel in split surround applications.

Leaving the EX feature enabled during a non-EX performance would send any surround information existing in both channels to the center surround channel leaving the side walls quiet. This is where the argument to leave it on originated from.

I must admit, after installing and aligning four of them, it sure would be nice to actually turn them on once in awhile. "Mission To Mars" is gone and "Gladiator" leaves Thursday.

Hey Hollywood!!! Throw us a frickin' bone here will ya? *Dr. Evil impersonation*

Russ

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-03-2000, 06:23 AM:

What a waste of money! Here we have another BIG movie that would really benefit from EX use...Gone In 60 Seconds, but no...

Dear Hollywood producers, a lot of us forked out money for this system because it was going to make the cinema going experience soooooooo much better. Well? Where are all the EX soundtracks then? You've got it at your disposal, use the bloody thing, will ya?
So far you can just about count the titles utilizing this process on two hands and it's been out for over 12 months!

As Russ said...Hey Hollywood!!! Throw us a frickin' bone here will ya?

Well put.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-03-2000, 12:52 PM:

Although EX can sound pretty damn cool in the hands of a master (Gray Rydstrom in Toy Story 2), it is otherwise a big doorstop lately. I just wish Gary would do more EX mixes, and that he would take all the time he needs to make them sound good.

Curiously, Gary mixed the sound to "Rules of Engagement". No EX. If I were Gary, it would be in my contract that every movie I mix MUST be in EX --- That way the format I worked so hard to have created wouldn't be looked upon as a joke.

Perhaps Hollywood didn't think that exhibitors were losing enough money at the time EX was created. After all, we ALL are extremely well off currently, right? We can all afford to spend tons of money on a box that won't be used very much and doen't offer much of a benefit unless you are playing Toy Story 2.

Funny that the movie that it was designed for, Star Wars Ep 1, didn't utilize it well and the studio ripped the theatres off with contracts and high percentage returns on box office receipts. Way to go!

Posted by Mathias Andersson (Member # 169) on 07-03-2000, 02:11 PM:

You guys say that MI2 is not encoded in Surround EX, but it is encoded in DTS-ES. If you believe the movielist on www.dtsonline.com. Could anyone verify that on a DTS disc?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-03-2000, 03:42 PM:

That is a typo. Neither the discs state "ES" nor does the ES unit pulse itself into ES, which is automatic on DTS's ES (EX) unit.

Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 07-03-2000, 04:36 PM:

Russ wrote:

"Leaving the EX feature enabled during a non-EX performance would send any surround information existing in both channels to the center surround channel leaving the side walls quiet. This is where the argument to leave it on originated from."

This shouldn't leave the side walls completly silent. All EX is, is a home pro-logic circuit, literally. That information that is in BOTH channels would go to the center surround, but information that is in only one or the other would go to the side walls. Many Non-EX mixes sound BETTER in EX. ie "Deep Impact" sounds incredible in EX mode.

Also Gray Rydstrom did an incredible job on "Rules of Engagement" without using EX. If not run in EX mode, you almost get a 'phantom' EX channel, which sounded incredible.

I agree that after theatres bought all these EX units that they aren't getting enough of the 'proper' use.

Anyone know if DTS is going to modify the home 6.1 channel format that I have heard about for cinema applications. 6.1 channels adds a DISCRETE center surround for home, very cool.

------------------
Dave Cutler

"Do or do not, there is no try."

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-03-2000, 11:56 PM:

Who cares about home theater?

Anyway, if you left the EX circuit on all of the time, any analog surround would only come from the back set of speakers, because analog only offers mono surround. Not too effective.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-04-2000, 02:57 AM:

Ick! I can just imagine how a digital dropout would sound!

Why would DTS be spending their time on video and not professional cinemas? If they would offer a discrete EX channel, THAT would be a major boost to the format in theaters! It shouldn't be that hard to accomplish.

Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 07-04-2000, 11:14 AM:

I wish DTS would add the discrete center surround to cinema rather than home audio too. I mentioned it to get other opinions on the subject. Although I am not sure how it would be wired. I don't think it could be added to any current analog processors, maybe an update to the DTS-6AD? One can always hope.

Good point about analog surround, you definately wouldn't want to run analog in EX. So just hope your SRD doesn't drop.

Posted by Oscar Neundorfer (Member # 458) on 07-04-2000, 11:47 AM:

Regarding analog surround while in ex mode:

If the automation part of the ex processor is hooked up correctly and is functioning properly, when the cinema processor reverts to analog, then the ex processor should also revert to non-ex mode. At least this is what happens with the SMART and PANASTEREO products. I believe this is also true with the SA-10 and DTS, although I could be wrong.

------------------
Oscar Neundorfer
Chief Engineer
SMART Devices, Inc.

oscar@smartdev.com

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-04-2000, 03:48 PM:

I see the CP650 offers an EX option for only $1500...how the hell am I supposed to sell this idea to my boss if there's no product to even have the thing switched out of bypass as it is?

Still waiting for that bone, Hollywood. (sigh)...

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 07-04-2000, 03:57 PM:

So Joe, don't you want the Smart Center Surround EX Emulator for your house?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-04-2000, 05:55 PM:

Yes Ian, I want that. But I am more concerned with theatrical technology when companies are innovating stuff like that.

The SA10 and DTS-ES will both revert back to normal surround mode if wired correctly. Don't know about the SMART unit. The Century 16 Theatre here in Colorado just leaves their 4 SA10's engaged all of the time. If digital drops out, the SA10 stays engaged. I guess whoever did the install of the SA10 at the Century didn't know what they were doing or figured that the operators are morons!

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 09-13-2000, 11:06 PM:

Has anyone figured out just how the heck you can TELL if a movie is supposed to be in EX?? There's absolutely NO labeling standard for this whatsoever! The closest you can get is by looking for the "ES" next to the catalog numbers on the DTS discs, but they weren't printed on the "Chicken Run" disc and that movie was ES so there went that resource. I worked at a theater that had 2 of them and I just left them on all the time, I don't believe in destroying the original intent of the soundtrack and I didn't think leaving EX on unnecessarily did that (I HATE some of these new DVDs of old movies re-mixed for 5.1 by the way!) One of the other projectionists there kept them off unless he was sure the movie was in EX, until I asked him why he kept turning it off for "Bats" which was in EX (could tell from the end credits.)
Not even the technical notes sent with movies made any mention of whether or not to keep the EX decoding on! If they specifically wanted it off I certainly would have done so, but there's just no way to tell!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-14-2000, 12:45 AM:

DTS serial numbers that have 5 digits are supposed to be in EX. Something really needs to be done about this, though.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-15-2000, 02:29 AM:

The prints should also be I.D'd on the leaders to identify ES and EX.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-15-2000, 06:18 AM:

One positive way of identifying the sound encoding on every print would be to write the information in the analog soundtrack area of the sound negative leaders, so it is printed onto every print made from that negative. The responsibility would fall to the sound recording facility that makes the negative, who should certainly know what type of tracks are on the negative.

I'll bring this up at the Inter-Society and SMPTE Projection Technology Meetings being held at ShowEast.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-15-2000, 06:42 AM:

You see...? It's not what you know but who you know.

Thanks John.