This is topic DTS woes in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001101

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-17-2000, 10:46 PM:
 
I'd be interested to hear if someone can explain this one:

What would cause DTS to fault to SR yet contain the proper disks and give every indication on both the reader and the player that timecode was being read properly? I had this happen twice to me to night on two different DTS players with two different movies. Both DTS players were the old-style white-with-blue color scheme. The only fix that I could come up with was to reboot the DTS players, which "fixed" the problem.

Any ideas as to what would have caused this?
 
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 06-17-2000, 11:21 PM:
 
Only thing I can suggest is:

At our theater, we originally put in just a CP65 (no digital) in one house. Then, we put use a Xetron cue detector with reflective cues on the film to "tell" the automation what to do. We have cues one thru eight. For example, a "six" cue (six reflective cues one frame apart) is; go to "scope" and analog "SR."

OK, so then we added a DTS 6D (three drawer) unit. When it detects DTS timecode, and the right disks are in, it automatically switches the CP65 to "digital." We were glad it did it by itself, because we didn't have to wire up the cue detector to do it.

The problem was that people kept putting cues on the film, shortly after the actual feature had started (about 3 feet in.)

What was happening was:
the film would run in mono (for ads);
then the timecode went through and switched the CP65 to "digital."
Then the cues would go through and set the CP65 back to analog SR, and run the rest of the show that way. It looked like a fault, but it was only doing what it was told.
 


Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-18-2000, 12:44 AM:
 
I kinda' agree. If you have automation that controls your sound processor it can switch it out of digital. If the DTS detects the switch, it assumes you did it for a reason and won't switch back.

The player will be running normally, with all the right lights blinking (or NOT blinking, as the case may be...) but the processor will be in SR. If you press the <DIGITAL> button on the processor it'll go bck to DTS without problems.

If that's what happens to you, my bet it that it's your automation
 


Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-18-2000, 12:52 AM:
 
Tell us what processor you've got.
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-18-2000, 04:54 AM:
 
CP-65. Kelmar automation.
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-18-2000, 05:14 AM:
 
John has probably pegged the problem, but did this happen in the middle of the movie or at the beginning near a cue? Also, did it happen at a reel change or within a reel? Once it dropped out, was the "system" light still happily blinking? Was the light on the cdrom blinking or glowing steadily?


 


Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-18-2000, 06:09 AM:
 
This is weird, since it happened on one show only, but to two different DTS units and two different features in two different auditoria.

I don't _think_ it's a cue-placement issue, though. The trailer reel is a mix of mono and SR cues (mono for policy, gift certificate, etc.). The last SR cue is at the beginning of a non-DTS policy trailer which runs directly before the feature. Normally, this works fine and the DTS unit will start reading the timecode at the beginning of the feature and switch to DTS (labelled as "Dolby Stereo Digital" on the CP-65).

I admit that I didn't try manually switching from SR to digital before rebooting the DTS unit, since both shows were pretty close to being sold out and I didn't want to risk losing all sound.
 
Posted by Tom Ferreira (Member # 70) on 06-18-2000, 07:33 AM:
 
I am also having a DTS problem similar to Scott's. The DTS will run through fine at times(6D Unit, Smart Processor), but at other times, it will drop out and switch to analog. The system light is flashing, but the light on the reader goes on and off. I called DTS Tech support-they said to check the grounding on the reader(not the problem),the tension(already had tried that), and as a last resort, peel the sticker off the reader and adjust the reader. Has anyone done this? Until I find a solution, I'm running analog.
 
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 06-18-2000, 07:48 AM:
 
We had a thunderstorm near us last night (here in CT.) Maybe you got one, too?

At different theaters, a power glitch would have a different effect. At one place I worked, the projectors would stop, but at another a similar glitch would only bring up all the house lights.

I still can't figure out the LED right on the CD ROM itself. I know it's blinks while being read. But, when it's not being used- sometimes it's on (steady), sometimes it's off.

Is there anyway to tell what kind of drive (TDK, etc.) it is without taking it apart?

I probably would have taken the chance and pressed "digital" on the CP65 and/or even rebooted the DTS unit. It is pretty reliable, but if worst came to worst, you could fallback to emergency. It's not that I want the patrons to suffer, but (at my theater) if it doesn't get fixed or at least fully 'documented', it will stay that way until I work again a week later. So, even more people will suffer. I wouldn't take that policy to an extreme, but the DTS/ Dolby combo is pretty reliable.

I bet it burns Dolby's butt to have you press, "Dolby Stereo Digital" to switch in a DTS unit.
 


Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-18-2000, 09:15 AM:
 
In one theatre we had to put a ups on the processor and DTS player to make it behave
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-18-2000, 05:17 PM:
 
I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but the first generation of DTS readers have faulty leds in them. As the led dies (which is fairly quickly, kinda like any SDDS led), the green light on the reader is just as steady as it always was, but is very dim. That light should be very bright. If not, check for a manufacture date on the reader. I'll bet it needs to be swapped out. I think DTS had that problem fixed by 1994 though.
 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-19-2000, 12:01 AM:
 
I had to peel the sticker and adjust my DTS reader. Kind of funny, because it came with a note saying the unit was factory calibrated and would need no further adjustment. I have the note on my booth wall, to remind me never to trust such notes.
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-20-2000, 10:20 AM:
 
Becarefull whenyou adjust the sealed readers for they are accurate. It is usually a bad print before it is the reader's lateral position
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-20-2000, 11:03 AM:
 
SMPTE Recommended Practice RP 115 "Dimensions of Photographic Control and Data Record on 35-mm Motion-Picture Prints" specifies that the centerline of the scanned width of the time code track is 0.297 +/- 0.001 inches (7.54 +/- 0.03 mm)from the reference edge of the film. The scanned width of the track is 0.005 +/- 0.001 inches (0.13 +/- 0.03 mm). Tracks printed outside this tolerance may not read correctly.

If you have a DTS reel that isn't reading correctly, measure the position of the image on the film before you change the "factory setting" of the reader.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
 


Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 06-20-2000, 11:11 AM:
 
I have had always problems with my 1993 reader, board rev B. It is already one of those sealed types, and changing lateral alignment did not help.The LED might have died, according to the schematics, there's a compensation feedback loop to accomodate for density changes, which should at least help for a while. My first attempt was to change the LED, it's a standard red 3 mm Hi Briteness LED. It's little difficult to do,but worth trying first.
The unit always worked fine with Jurassic Parc.
Later I got tired of the problem, and tried more research. I found some films, where the noiseless shutter was acting within the DTS area, therefore getting the density contol circuitry out of lock. I modified the pure analog circuit to a standard positive feedback comparator, and since that oabout 90 % of the reels run oK. The other projectors use rev. readers, which never gave problems.
#It's such a simple, theoreticly reliable, system. But beware of readers older than rev. B. The rev can be seen on the PCBunderneath the connecting plug .
 
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 06-20-2000, 11:30 AM:
 
I think you are in the wrong business, Stefan. Anyone who can just hook up op-amp comparators to an existing design (without schematics) should be working for DTS!
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-20-2000, 01:55 PM:
 
Many of our customers have had this problem but it happened on all prints they tried to run. They also had one or more bad toshiba cd drives as well. Doing the timecode software upgrade cured the blinking reader light problem. The rest you all know about already......just replace all the drives and order in another 3 for when those fail.
Mark


 


Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 06-20-2000, 06:34 PM:
 
In response to DTS--CP65 going to SR instead of digital...

First, use a DTS Setup disc to check the DTS player. Load the disc and verify it pulses the CP to digital. Then, eject the disc to verify the CP is pulsed to optical. On a DTS-6 (2-drive unit), the default format is determined by a jumper on the DTS logic (accessory) board. For a CP65, its the D564.
If this works OK, then the problem is somewhere else.

Check that no cues are added to the film within timecode. The DTS player cannot "see" cues, it only "knows" timecode.

Verify the automation is not pulsing the CP back to optical after the DTS pulses it to digital. The DTS player will never "know" that the CP is in optical. The only way it "knows" it's no longer in digital is if timecode is interrupted or the discs fail. At show end, the DTS player should pulse the CP to NONSYNC.

After loading discs, verify the SYSTEM light is blinking. If it's nt blinking, the player is not ready. It usually means that the discs are not loaded.

When playing film, be sure the timecode light is on solid and not blinking a lot. Occassional blink is OK. But a reader that blinks all the time is not a good thing. If it happens on one reel only, it's probably a bad reel that needs replacement. If it happens on one film only, check the film & discs. See if moving the discs to another drive fixes the problem. A soild (amber) light on a drive indicates the drive cannot read the disc. The drive's amber light should wink when reading it's disc.

If the timecode light blinks all the time, it's a system problem, usually a tension problem. We have a troubleshooting guide to help. If you'd like it, send me an email.

BTW, removing the reader's "do not remove" sticker VOIDS warranty. Lateral adjustments may be made only as directed by DTS cinema field engineers (of which I am one). The lens is factory adjusted exactly to the width of our timecode track. Old readers (JURASSIC PARK era) w/o serial numbers do not have the same lens design.

If the reader's L.E.D. (red ro green) seem dim, then get a repair/exchange. I do not reccommend trying to fix readers in the field. They should be returned to DTS.

And, never -- EEEVER -- adjust the reader's lens!!! You'll get into hot water that will most likely force you into a repair/exchange.

I hope this assits you. Please let me know if you need any help.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com


 


Posted by Tom Ferreira (Member # 70) on 06-20-2000, 08:17 PM:
 
OK, so it's happened to me on three consecutive films, and never at the same point of the film. The DTS unit is reading the disks, because the system light is blinking, so we can rule out a problem with the drives(I've tried switching the disks around anyway). I assume you're the same Karen my projectionist and I talked to on the phone Friday night. It is not a grounding problem, I cleaned the reader and lens, and the tension is OK(I increased the tension before the reader and the LED still blinked on and off), so have I narrowed it down to either the reader or the connection between the reader and the DTS unit? Is is possible that the cord could be bad? Could the calibration on the reader change? This is driving me crazy!
 
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 06-21-2000, 09:56 AM:
 
Tom wrote:
"(I increased the tension before the reader and the LED still blinked on and off)..."

I don't know if this is of any use, but we had a problem where the green LED on the DTS reader blinked often. It would loose sync once in a while (about every ten minutes.)

It turned out to be the speed of the projector. My understanding is that DTS timecode can't track if the projector speed is less than 18fps or above 30fps (I'm sure Karen will correct me if wrong.) Some limit of the PLL they use, I guess.

So, maybe a quick check of the speed might be a good idea?

We were using an Enerman 15 projector. I forgot the exact voltages, but it was originally made to run at (say) 200V; we put a stepdown transformer which made it 100V but that was too low. So we added another transformer to boost the voltage a little.
 


Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 06-23-2000, 07:28 PM:
 
Tom,

So, did you try connecting the grounding wire (under the shrink sleeving)? Yes, I am the same 'karen' who answers tech calls over the phone. There is only one female field tech here at DTS.

If the drives' amber lights are winking when reading discs, that's good and the drives are working as they should. A solid amber light means it cannot read the disc = that's bad.

If the reader's LED is blinking a lot, that is probably your problem...
First, try connecting the ground wire to the timecode cable connector (on the reader). This wire will ground your projector's chassis. The only way to tell a projector is properly grounded is to use an ohm meter and check its chassis to earth ground. It should be zero ohms.
Next thing to try is to put a little tension in the film path as the film runs. Use your finger to add a little drag as the film enters the reader. If that clears up the timecode LED to read steadily, you need to add tension to the system. This can be done by adding a cleaning roller or readjusting the auxillary roller so that it has more contact with the film. If the LED does not clear up, use your finger to add drap as the film exits the reader. If this clears up the LED, it means the projector motor is off-speed or one of the gears is slipping.
The last thing to attempt (or could be first if you have a known good reader) is to swap out the reader to see if that fixes it.
The changes of a bad cable is remote. To rule that out, try swapping out the cable from a working house first.

Let me know how it goes. This type of problem is usually simple to fix, but it may take a little time and work on your part to determine the cause. Feel free to call, or email me at khultgren@dtsonline.com

Karen at DTS

 


Posted by Tom Ferreira (Member # 70) on 06-30-2000, 08:28 AM:
 
Karen,
I received a new reader-it ran fine for three shows yesterday-let's hope the problem is solved. I did hook up the ground wire the other day, also. Thanks for your help.
Tom
 




Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2