Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: ORC BULBS

This is topic ORC BULBS in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-22-2000, 10:56 AM:

Has anyone actually had an ORC lamp that has made it all the way to then end of it's warranty period with become either had to start, flicker, or go dark quickly
I have yet to see one and find it very scarry that they are now marketing a 15k for the large format industry

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-22-2000, 11:49 AM:

I think buying cheap (ORC) lamps is a false economy. When we first opened the theatre they bought us ORC. We'd be lucky if they made it to 750 hours (4200W).

Even then, knowing as little as I did, I KNEW there must be a better lamp. I checked into it and found out that Osram made xenons. Since I'd heard of Osram's good reputation. (They are part of Sylvania) I hypothesised that they MUST be better. They couldn't be any worse.

I did a little bit of math and figured that if ORC is 20% cheaper than Osram but Osram lasts 25-30%longer, you'll get a 5-10% savings. After a few months of b**ching and crying to the bosses, I finally got them to order me a couple as a test. They lasted up to the warranty (even longer if you must)and we've been using them ever since.

Frankly, I would be hard-pressed to go back to ORC lamps.

Posted by Michael Cunningham (Member # 210) on 06-22-2000, 01:43 PM:

Wow! I don't know where ORC gets the bulbs they are sending you, but 750 hours is rediculous. I regularly get 3000 hours out of my ORC 4500W's and haven't had one explode or go dead on me in 3 years. Could the difference be lamp-house related? I'm using Strong Super Highlight II's if that helps. Not to be an adamant defender of ORC or anything, but I have never seen the problems referred to.

-Mike

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-22-2000, 02:08 PM:

Proper cooling, pure DC (low current ripple), and operating a xenon lamp within its rated current range are essential for obtaining good xenon lamp performance. Cooling air flow should be at the proper volume and not obstructed (check lamphouse air intakes for dirt buildup). Aging power supplies need to be checked to be sure AC current ripple is acceptably low. Be sure input power to the power supply is correct (e.g., correct voltage, balanced 3-phase line). Running a lamp above its maximum current is dangerous (seal failure and explosion), and dramatically shortens its life. Running a lamp below its recommended current range leads to arc instability and also shortens life.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-22-2000, 02:16 PM:

When I was in Chicago I sold ORC bulbs exclusively and only had a couple of failures in the 5 years I handled them. Since ORC bulbs have now been through two different ownerships I don't know if they are still as good. If you buy a new Strong Followspot you still get an ORC bulb and I really don't like them doing that. We have had a number of ORC lamps fail in these Followspots in recent time. We use Ushio CXL-20R lamps in all of our rental soptlights and have had no failures in spite of the constant beating and shipping around that these have received.
Overall I prefer Ushio(Christie) bulbs over anything else out there including Osram. Christies warranty return claim seems to happen faster too, and I have only had two failures if Christie bulbs that I can think of in 18 years. One was a 1kw recently that had a seal failure, and the first failure was a new out of the box 3kw that exploded upon its first ignition. They replaced the mirror on that one as well as the lamp.
Overall Ushio is THE 4 star lamp!
Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-22-2000, 03:21 PM:

3000 hours from a 4500 watt ORC bulb? Or even any kind of bulb for that matter...that's insane. I wouldn't go pushing them that far. The cost of a new bulb vs. the light on screen and the cost of a new reflector doesn't add up to savings.

Randy, don't you use CFS lamphouses? If so, ORC bulbs are the worst thing you can put in them. As far as other models, I don't much care for the ORC brand. Some people like 'em, but I don't.

And what's with the little plastic "saran wrap" shoelace-tied on protective cover!?!?!?!?!

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 06-22-2000, 04:18 PM:

It would be interresting to see how ORC goes about its 15K bulbs. Dosen't anything above 7K really have to have the bulb itself water cooled? Are the designs drastically different to standard Xenon bulbs or are they pretty similar?

Personally I've never had much luck with the ORC bulbs that I've used. They don't perform as well as similarly rated Osram and Ushio (Christie) bulbs. They also seem to produce alot more infared light than the other manufactures. I managed to get 1200hrs out of a 7Kw bulb and it was fine at that point but said enough was enough (that was with a Christie bulb) Beats the pants off 58hrs or less

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 06-22-2000, 10:17 PM:

I would assume the ORC 15KW will be water-cooled--all of the 12K and 15K lamphouses I've seen so far have been thusly equipped.

At the now dearly departed Caesars Omnimax we used Duratest 15K. Ran 'em a 1000 hours and changed 'em so as not to void the IMAX service agreement. No problems... Well once, after someone probably didn't clean a new bulb thoroughly enough. It popped at about 45 minutes total running time, naturally during a special school screening. Lots of fun shoveling and mopping out the lamphouse--the mixture of quartz and water reminded me of slushy snowcones--just not as tasty. We were lucky though, no damage to either the reflector or the cold mirrors.

Posted by Mark Huff (Member # 480) on 06-22-2000, 11:41 PM:

I know that no one will agree with me on this but I like the Christie Xenolite bulb. If you are using the CFS console you need the CXL-40SC for short cable.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-23-2000, 12:08 AM:

Yes, Brad, they are CFS. What is it about the CFS / ORC combo that's so bad?

Since we switched to Christie & Osram almost all of our troubles have gone away.

The college has an ORC lamp in a L.P. Assoc. (Xe-Lamp) 'house. It gives me very little problem. Of course, it gets very little use compared to TT-17.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-23-2000, 04:03 AM:

Mark,

Everyone here likes the Christie bulb. Ushio is another name for them.

Randy,

I don't know the technical reasons why CFS lamphouses don't like ORC bulbs, but they certainly don't!

Christie/Ushio is hands down the best bulb currently out there.

Posted by Michael Cunningham (Member # 210) on 06-23-2000, 05:24 AM:

Hey Brad,

I agree about the stupid "safety" covers on ORC bulbs, I am in no way defending ORC. There have been far too many problems reported here and elsewhere about them for it to be coincidental, but I have really had no problems running them for 3000 hours every time. Very curious... The 3000 hours is not an arbitrary number devised by me, it is actually required by the corporate office. I suppose they want their money's worth, and then some!

-Mike

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-23-2000, 07:05 AM:

Talk about false economy! The costs of one exploded lamp could far exceed any savings you get from letting them go for so long.

Bust a reflector... Blow a power supply... Glass schrapnel in the projector head... Rain checks & refunds... Down time...
And don't forget the pain in the ass value.

Posted by Mark Huff (Member # 480) on 06-23-2000, 09:25 AM:

Randy,

Let me give you some insight about CFS. Well to start CFS= S**T. We have 18 4500 watt consoles and 1 7k console. The 4500's all have 50 to 52 volts of AC ripple. The 7k has 90 volts of AC ripple. The light produced from the 7k house is 3 footlamberts. I have checked, changed, rewired, tweeked, removed, and adjusted every part on the stupid console and nothing will give me more than 3 footlambers. I have even changed out the power supply. We have had our company engineer (Bob Dorsey) the dumb ass, a tech from NCS (Paul Brown), and three engineers from CFS out to look at this thing and no one can figure out the problem. For those of you wondering yes it was VOLTS of ripple not millivolts as it should be. I have made the last comment in front of the CFS people lets take this junk out and put in a CHRISTIE REFERENCE console. If only dreams would come true.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-23-2000, 09:35 AM:

You're right on that.
RENTEC = "Repeat Everybody... Now, This Equipment is Crap!

It seems that companies who go for the cheaper stuff don't realize how much money they spend repairing the darned things. At $40 - $50 each, how much money have they spent just replacing diodes? They could have bought better stuff and SAVED money!

The Stage Manager at Mercyhurst doesn't even like ORC! He says that some brands of follow spots come with ORC lamps. He says they pretty much suck. Sometimes they even take the ORC's out and replace them with Osram right off the bat.

Of course ORC is cheaper. The insides are made out of ALUMINUM FOIL!

PS: Bob Dorsey was the Chief Tech. who installed our theatre. I remember him well.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-23-2000, 05:41 PM:

Somethings wrong with the math the bulb only operates at 25-28 volts so it is difficult to have 58 volts ripple. Infact the output filter cap would have exploded if it had
A possiblity is that there is a piece of nichrome wire that is used a current limiter coupling the boost supply to the output cap
has it been replaced with a piece of regular wire?

Posted by Mark Huff (Member # 480) on 06-24-2000, 01:20 PM:

I don't know if regular wire has been intalled or not. Our great engineer (Bob Dorsey) the dumb ass has intructed me not to touch the lamphouse any further. He is in a battle with Rentec over this problem. But I can assure you that we had over 50 voltz of ripple. I hate RENTEC.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-24-2000, 03:50 PM:

If you had over 50v of ripple the picture would be strobing on the screen from the beat flicker

Posted by Lance C. McFetridge (Member # 95) on 06-24-2000, 04:53 PM:

Gord,
Actually #2 has 2080 hours on and not a flicker. And I am looking forward to changing out a couple of bulbs so I can start buying a different brand. Who was it that sold them to me in the first place? Or did Jim just want to get rid of inventory?

lance

Posted by Mark Huff (Member # 480) on 06-24-2000, 09:56 PM:

Gordon you are correct we did have a flicker and that is why we changed out sevral diodes. I just wish the problem will soon be corrected.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-24-2000, 11:20 PM:

Our CFS lamphouses always flicker a little but at least. Some do it more than others. I've changed all six diodes in them and there was little to no effect.

The light at Mercyhurst has virtually no flicker at all. It's an ORC lamp, even!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-25-2000, 02:08 PM:

Lance what make of bulb went bang?
I always ask for OSRAM lamps they eat the replacement of the reflector if the bang was a defective lamp.
And no I did spec OSRAM orc was not my choice but the bosses

Posted by Lance C. McFetridge (Member # 95) on 06-25-2000, 04:10 PM:

Gord,
You know full well that an orc beat up the reflector in #2

Or are you just rubbing it in a little? My projectionist stayed in the bathroom for a long time while I changed out the lamp. He did mention that it sounded like a shotgun going off as he stood next to it. Anyway, just as soon as I use up these last two lamps I have in the box, I am changing brands, and you can swing down and help me refocus a new reflector.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-25-2000, 06:46 PM:

Lance I don't need the excuse to refocus the reflector to swing bye your theatre
It is a tribute to this industry that it is one of the few theatres that I go to that is always SPOTLESSLY clean and every thing is almost smack on
Kepp it up and I will be out of work
Gord

Posted by Mark DeLettera (Member # 125) on 06-27-2000, 10:12 AM:

Lance,
We met last year at the Entertainment Equipment seminar in Buffalo. Now that I am living weekends and vacation days at our cottage on Keuka Lake this summer, I will have to make it a point to stop by and check out your theatre that Gordy speaks so highly of. A few of my neighbors have told me similar comments.
When we get another rainy or cool weekend day, (and the way it has been going, I'm sure we are in for many more), I will definately stop and visit. (Who knows, maybe I can get that Pytlak guy to stop by also, possibly by way of a Kodak (workday) field trip!)

Mark D.
Eastman Kodak Co.

Posted by Art Averett (Member # 367) on 06-27-2000, 10:15 AM:

Here at WDW we use both OSRAM and ORC. I'm at the studios and also use Rentec consoles, that hold the lamp vertically. Usage is from 2KW lamps to 7KW lamps. We also use Strong Super Lum-x that use 2KW OSRAM lamps. We normally get about almost up to 800 to 1000 hours of usage on a 7KW ORC lamp. The 7KW lamps are only warranted up to 500 hours. Anything after that you are on your own. We also check our power supplies once a year and replace the electrolytics as to insure steady DC to the lamps. All of our lamps are constantly running any where from 12 to 14 hours a day constantly, with no shutdowns. Yes we get an occasional lamp exploding, taking a reflector with it. On the Rentec lamphouses, CHECK ALL CONNECTIONS FROM THE POWER SUPPLY TO THE LAMP. Rentec has lousy quality control (or none). Every Rentec we have received, we have tightened loose wiring on all electrical connections. Check DC current going to the lamp with a clamp-on DC ammeter. On the vertical consoles, (RENTEC) check the angle of the mirror with a protractor. It should be at a 45 degree angle. I have seen brand new OSRAM lamps explode inside of their protective covers. Good luck, Art

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-27-2000, 11:35 AM:

Art:

I visited the "behind the scenes" projection facilities at Walt Disney World (WDW) in September 1992. At the time, we were hosted by Tom Jozwiak and Bob Ray. I know Bob has retired and is now with Atlas Lighting (saw him at several recent trade shows). Is Tom still there?

Might be interesting to the readers of Film-Tech to know the projection equipment used for some of the major attractions at WDW. I recall there were lots of modified Ballantyne projectors used for 35mm applications. Even then, WDW used 100% ESTAR base print film, and was getting thousands of flawless plays, thanks to the care taken and on-line film cleaning.

How about an update?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-27-2000, 04:08 PM:

Yes John, you're right!
But those Ballantynes also have the solid Starwheel shaft(known as the Disney Star instead of the star with the coupler. That makes em allot more reliable.
Mark

Posted by Mike Jones (Member # 522) on 07-06-2000, 06:27 PM:

listen, ORC bulbs are the worst bulbs ever! We had maybe 10 orc bulbs that never came anywhere close to 2,000 hours. They all died long before and we just kept getting replacements. If you know what the hell you're doing, you should not use ORC bulbs!