Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: China Markers

This is topic China Markers in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Richard Quesnelle (Member # 391) on 06-22-2000, 04:51 PM:

Hey everyone! I haven't posted much but have always read the site everyday. My post has to do with china markers (grease pencils). I remember an old post about marking film. I know by many it's a no no but the theatre i work for use grease pencils all the time. They use it to marked the edges and to mark heads and tails on the film. I have since stopped doing it but if need be I have to (as in marking film edges but even that I haven't done lately. I know it leaves undo crud on the film for nothing. I was just curious what others thought about this.

Rich

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-22-2000, 04:54 PM:

I use the EPRAD edge marker on even the IMAX prints

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-22-2000, 04:54 PM:

Any film marking should be done with something that can be completely removed, like edge-tape. Grease pencil, china markers, shoepolish etc. all damage either the sound areas, the image areas or both.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-22-2000, 04:59 PM:

Actually since in the law according to filmtech SDDS has no right to exist so there fore obliteration of the SDDS track is not a concern

I have never had a problem using the silver paint marker in the eprad device causeing a glitch in the SDDS track. It just requires skill

Posted by Russ Kress (Member # 461) on 06-22-2000, 11:32 PM:

We use clear tape on repairs and zebra tape on reel changes.

Since polyester film doesn't break, I have found that my guys will use clear tape at the reel changes as well. When the only splices present are reel change splices, there isn't any confusion at break-down.

We also use editing gloves (cotton). Is this neccessary when we treat all new prints with Film Guard on their first two runs? I seem to recall somewhere where someone didn't like the gloves, but I can't remember the reason.

While I'm at it, we also use Kodak PTRs on every performance where a media cleaner is not in use. We have two media cleaners and eleven screens. Can the PTRs pick up dust from Film Guard treated prints?

Russ

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-23-2000, 03:57 AM:

Most people don't use gloves because a better splice can be made if you aren't fumbling through a pair of gloves. Also, frequently the cotton fibers get trapped in the splices and make for a nasty looking splice. I don't use them and so long as you don't go running your fingers over the picture area, don't feel they are necessary. Inspecting prints is also far easier without gloves.

Yes, PTRs can pick up dust/dirt from FG prints.

I also must agree with Gordon. The Eprad marker does a fantastic job. Their applicator also makes it virtually impossible for it to disturb the SDDS track (but then again who cares about that track anyway, right)?

Still, why not just put a piece of tape on the reels with a line drawn on the tape at the "full level" and use that for breaking down?

Posted by Richard Quesnelle (Member # 391) on 06-23-2000, 06:31 AM:

I have never heard of an Epred marker so I don't know how to use one. Are they expensive to buy? Also Brad, I didn't quite get what you meant buy "full mark" line. It sounds like two superior ways of doing things but I wouldn't mind some further explanation.

Thanks.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-23-2000, 05:55 PM:

I've got one of the Eprad things around here somewhere. If I find it, I'll take a picture. Basically, it is a little plastic thing that holds the film. On the edge of it is a hole for the paint pen to go into. You load the film into it, stick the paint pen in the end, and then pull the film through for however long you want it marked.

"Full line", before you unwind the reels on a new print, take a piece of masking tape and place it on the side of the reel. Now, take a marker and draw a line on the tape at the point where the outer revolution of film is. That mark will then tell you exactly how much film is supposed to be on the reel during breakdown. Simply wind until you are about 1/2 inch away from the mark, then slow it down a bit and start hand inspecting the film as it runs off of the platter. You will feel the splice run through your fingers. There really is no need to mark the film in any way.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 06-23-2000, 06:08 PM:

With all the coreless film that I have been repairing lately, along with visits to the dentist, and other fun things, I have been glad to see reel #'s printed on the film with a china marker. Some of the films I have came with all the head and tail leaders tossed in the box (or can) and the film just rewound until the reels were full. Somewhere along the way, some theater wrote the reel #'s in tiny letters in the black frame area with a china marker. The same handwriting also scratched reel#'s into other prints. I prefer the marker. It comes right off with a little FG persuasion. With the unchangeable aperture on the Holmes, I get to see R4, for example, at the head of a movie just below the image..

Bruce

Posted by Carl King (Member # 398) on 07-14-2000, 10:10 PM:

grease pencils? I do use them but what I do is to make a line at the join of the splice no wider than a frame line then cover that with the splicing tape. The tape holds the grease pencil residue in place so that it does not travel. When tearing down a print in the dark the splice stands out and I know for sure it is my joint.

Carl King

Posted by Carl King (Member # 398) on 07-14-2000, 10:12 PM:

ps. I also mark the head and tail peices clearly with grease pencil so that the next guy/girl knows what reels they are dealing with.

Posted by Ethan Harper (Member # 472) on 07-14-2000, 11:20 PM:

We dont put marks on the film whatsoever, nor do we use a different colored tape for splices. we use clear splicing tape all the time. we have not found a reason to use anything else for any reason.

Although, when i started at cinemark. for a while we were clear splicing the reels together and add a little strip of solid yellow tape on the soundtrack side just enough to cover the sdds track only. otherwise the dolby would make a pop. kind of like putting on a strip of reflective tape on the edge of the print for a cue. but this was soon abolished.

------------------
--"That's my story and i'm sticking to it!"--

Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 07-14-2000, 11:41 PM:

I also started out using Clear splicing tape with a bit of yellow over the area where SDDS is now. But now I use Zebra tape for all reel changes and Clear for all trailers, commercials, ugly lab splices, and fixes. Zebra tape is just as invisible on screen as Clear tape if applied correctly and there is no confusion at teardown time.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-15-2000, 12:52 PM:

Is that Eprad marker thing still as expensive as it used to be? We have one around here somewhere too, I think we paid something like $75 for it. I agree with Brad, there's no need to mark on the film, but if you MUST make a mark, that Eprad thing works well if you can afford it.

I also have used "edge mark" tape ... 1/4" wide. All it takes is a half-inch piece to make a noticable mark.

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 07-15-2000, 10:11 PM:

Okay let's talk real-life here.

When you are a manager/projectionist dealing with cash-outs, stock control, and 6 films to make-up for the next day, you are NOT going to spend your valuable time looking for where you left the damn Eprad cue marker!

You are going to look for the most expedient method possible of marking the reel changes, be it china marker or paint stick.

C'mon guys, this is the real world today. Let's start a thread on the deterioration of projection on-screen quality in the past decade.

Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 07-16-2000, 01:31 AM:

Fastest solution?

Zebra Tape, just make your splice and be done with it. Don't mark the film in any way. I hate it when I get a print that is marked on.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-17-2000, 07:58 AM:

I really like Brad's method of putting a piece of removable tape on the shipping reel, and marking how "full" it was, to aid in finding the reel-to-reel splices on break-down.

AFAIK, "Zebra Tape" grew out of my presentations on film handling damage at the 1980 NATO Convention and 1982 SMPTE Conference. I reported that many projectionists were marking splices with very visible marks, shoe polish, white-out, etc. Lenny Dickstein took the idea of a splicing tape with a frameline mark to Hudson Photographic Industries, and "zebra tape" was born. Unfortunately, unless care is used in applying the tape, the marks can show on the screen, especially with the narrow framelines of "scope" prints. And Dolby Digital and SDDS tracks don't like to be covered up with colored zebra stripes.

The EPRAD marker and non-flaking paint is an improvement over any other type of marker, but still needs care in applying. But completely removing the marks is problematic. How effective is FilmGuard in cleaning them off?

Whenever possible, try to get the job done without marking the film. And anything you do put on the print should not be visible on the screen and be completely removable.

Does anyone use 1.5-inch wide (8-perf) splicing tape, that allows the tape edges to be on the framelines, reducing visibility of the tape splice on the screen?

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 07-17-2000, 09:52 AM:

The drive-in I visited this weekend uses nothing but "SOLID YELLOW" tape for everything. The drive-in who's equipment I bought this spring... they used nothing but YELLOW as well.
Since I'm a novice... I would assume this is wrong?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-17-2000, 10:55 AM:

Barry:

Opaque or solid color tape IS wrong, and should be a "no-no" on any part of the print that ends up being shown on the screen. Obviously you're covering the image and soundtracks on at least two frames of film at each splice. (Worse, with the 1-inch wide tape typically used, you're covering PART of two frames, making the splice even more obvious to the audience). There are much better and unobtrusive ways of finding the reel-to-reel splices during breakdown, like Brad's method of marking each shipping reel to indicate its' "full" load.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-18-2000, 12:31 AM:

I've started using clear tape whenever I can.

At Cinemark, it's a lot harder because there are a lot of inexperienced people and they kinda' need it. My solution has been to use the part of the tape that doesn't have the cross bar. I put the yellow along the sprocket holes, like normal, but the center of the film remains clear. It seems to be a good compromise.

At the other place I work at, I try to use clear tape all the time. When I have "helpers" I do the same trick I do at Cinemark.

Finding the splices isn't hard. Anybody can do it with a little practice. The problem is when I get prints in that are all chopped up. Then I take a permanent magic marker and make a mark on the tape so I know which one to stop at for the breakdown.

I really hate when people mark up the film with shoe polish or white markers! I spend the most of my time getting that SH** off the film! The other thing I spend a lot of time on is fixing crappy splices.

TIP: Don't just butt the jagged edges back together, you moron! CUT THE FILM! You've already damaged the film! cutting out a frame or two won't make it any worse! {flame-off}