Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Magenta/cyan analog optical tracks

This is topic Magenta/cyan analog optical tracks in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 07-03-2000, 10:14 PM:

What is the latest info on when or if cyan/cyan tracks will begin.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-04-2000, 02:58 AM:

January 2001.

As this post deals with projection and sound, it needs to be in the "Film Handler's Forum" and not the "Ground Level" forum (which is for theater operations). I am moving it.

(By the way, you posted the exact same topic twice...45 minutes apart. Your browser is having some cacheing problems if you did not see your original post. I deleted your first one.)

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 07-04-2000, 03:49 PM:

So I was talking to Lonny Jennings and Gary Stanley about Gary's next visit to the Riatlo. I figure we will not need him until we are forced to change to reverse scan sound heads. This isn't a change I wanted to rush into. Gary just did the A-chains on all five houses and I own 10 brand new exciter lamps and 6 used ones (Thanks Scott!?) I figure that the conversion will cost $5,000 minimum.

I told Scott Hicks of ACE that I will not be leading the charge to reverse scan but be part of the general panic.

So Lonny Jennings gets as wound up as I have ever seen him and starts raging against the conspiracy of the distributors to screw the theatre owners into changing out their sound heads so the studios can save money on processing. He states that there is no EPA mandate to reduce silver useage by the film labs. He also states that the cyan track is an inferior sound reproducer. The studios say it doesn't matter because everybody will be using the digital soundtrack anyway. It is not that reverse scan is inferior, it's not. It is the cyan sound track that is inferior.

Lonny also told me not to hold my breath. It will take a studio with big balls to be first and pull the trigger on this one. If you get a print with a cyan soundtrack, send it back or get the studio to pay for your conversion.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-04-2000, 05:54 PM:

Studio's will pay for the conversion just as they are going to pay for the DLP projectors
NOT LIKELY

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 07-04-2000, 08:46 PM:

Perhaps the first time you receive a cyan soundtrack film, you just deduct the cost of the retrofit from the film rental. In five releases I will pay for my five units.

If the distributors complain, we just send them back a cyan film with no rental at all because we couldn't play it.

I know; I'm just fantasizing here.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-04-2000, 09:44 PM:

It would appear that Lonny and I agree on this one.

For the record, the industry IS NOT going to switch over to cyan tracks January 2001 but is supposed to start "testing" them. If you see anything to the contrary, check the source of the information. Most likely, you will find a red LED supplier connected to it. USL has been the biggest predictors of doom in order to sell their Jaxlight. Kelmar seems to have joined in on the scare too.

The odds of the industry switching to cyan tracks is much less than switching to 6000' reels and that has been pushed more more and longer. What will get cyan tracks is some form of EPA legislation against the redeveloped process.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 07-05-2000, 06:48 AM:

Got this from the Kodak website:

What is the schedule for conversion to dye tracks?
The conversion to the interim High Magenta format is already under way, with all new theaters built in the last 3-4 years equipped with red readers. Retrofitting of red readers to projectors in existing theaters is proceeding steadily. Some laboratories are now making release prints in the High Magenta format, including all releases from Warner Bros and all prints made by Fotokem laboratory. When the proportion of red readers reaches about 85% (estimated in 2001 in the US) it is lilkely that the laboratories will announce their intention to switch their production to Cyan Dye tracks.

I would think after the studio announcements to make the switch there will still be a time delay. Still, time to consider the change to "red readers".

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-05-2000, 08:22 AM:

Ioan Allen of Dolby Laboratories is the Chairman of the Dye Tracks Committee. Here is Dolby's most recent (May 15, 2000) press release regarding the schedule for conversion to cyan dye tracks:
http://www.dolby.com/press/m.pr.0005.CyanDye.html

At the Dye Track Committee meeting held at the ACVL (Association of Cinema and Video Laboratories) meeting in San Diego on June 3, it was reported that about 23,000 red readers were installed in US theatres (over 60%). Plans for the January 2001 trade test of cyan dye track would be for "for about 50 prints with cyan tracks to be carefully distributed to theatres with red readers as a technical demonstration". A presentation about cyan dye tracks will be made at ShowEast in Orlando this October.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-05-2000, 10:03 PM:

Ah but since the conversion to red readers did not happen as quickly as hoped (we don't have anywhere near 85%) their seems to be a little more stiffarming going on and scare tactics to get exhibitors to caugh up money to convert to red readers in the name of lower quality!

If the careful reader reads these red reader articles one can see how the facts are very twisted. High-Magenta is presented as an improvement to traditional soundtracks. An improvement to what? Well to a RED reader. Yes, the red reader gets an improvement while a white light and infrared reader gets a reduction in quality. They forget to tell you that part.

The proponents of the red led system love to tell you about how your exciterlamps will suddenly blow out and leave you without sound but no mention about how much red leds fade and need constant resetting for optimal reproduction. No mention of the infrared led that offered a more stable light, read the conventional soundtrack better than either exciterlamps or red leds.

My favorite is the total handwaving on the increased noise of the cyan track that will be taken care of by Dolby SR. It has higher noise WITH SR than either exciterlamp or infrared led WITH SR on a conventional track.

Sure the economical advantages are there for the processing labs but there are no economical advantages for the exhibitor. Yet the exhibitor is expected to foot the bill for all of this. Why? They get nothing out of it. Let the labs pay if they stand to save so much. They have everything to gain if it is such a big deal. The exhibitor gets nothing.

Again, don't confuse reverse scan readers with red led readers, they are two different items that are often linked together. The benefits for the exhibitor come with the reverse scan readers that offer much improved frequency response crosstalk...etc that yeilds improved 2:4 decoding and SR tracking.

If you are going to upgrade to red led readers, don't do it for the stupid red light, do it while you upgrade your analog system (ie reverse scan reader).

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-06-2000, 07:21 AM:

Steve said: "If you are going to upgrade to red led readers, don't do it for the stupid red light, do it while you upgrade your analog system (ie reverse scan reader)."

No one argues that there are good reasons to upgrade to a reverse scan analog reader. Since they now all just happen to use a red LED light source, they will be compatible with the cyan dye tracks.

The "high magenta" (magenta + silver) tracks in use today are compatible with both white light (tungsten) readers and red LED readers. The old (cyan + magenta + silver) had a different cross-modulation optimization density for white light vs. red LED readers, causing compromises in cross-mod distortion. Since a majority of theatres (60%) now have red LED readers, "high magenta" tracks are better, since they are compatible with both readers.

Applicated silver soundtracks have been problematic since their introduction fifty years ago. For some idea of the complexity it adds to the process, read the Kodak processing manual especially those sections dealing with soundtrack redevelopment:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/processing/h249/h2409_011.shtml#130997
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/processing/h249/h2409_02.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/processing/h249/h2409_05.shtml

Posters on this forum have noted the problems that can occur with silver applicated soundtracks, including uneven application (thumping sound), skips (popping sounds), missed application (low level), and splashes into the picture area (gray stains). The environmental advantages of eliminating silver redevelopment are real (reduced chemical use, reduced water use, no silver left in film), even if they are not now mandated by law.

Whether you favor cyan dye tracks or not, there are many good reasons to upgrade to red LED reverse scan readers now.

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 07-06-2000, 06:13 PM:

John, you and Kodak are invited to upgrade my five houses to reverse scan sound as a good faith gesture towards Film-Tech and all the other independant theatres out there.

Ian

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-07-2000, 06:34 AM:

Ian:

Do it for the environment!

Actually, as Steve Guttag notes, there are good reasons to upgrade to red LED reverse scan readers. Compatibility with future cyan dye tracks is a bonus.

BTW, the cyan dye track will change the way the analog soundtracks are printed and processed, not the way Kodak, Fuji or Agfa make the film. Kodak has no vested interest other than helping the environment, simplifying the process, and improving processing quality. We don't market red LED readers or sound systems.

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 07-07-2000, 09:32 AM:

In other words, the labs can now be lazy, sloppy, and too fast so the quality can go WAY down with cyan. No reason to slow down and do a good job in the first place!
Gee, without costly silver in the track, won't processing prices go down? NOT!
No one has said anything about the archival quality of the cyan track over the years. How will it sound in 20 years? It will probably fade to nothing but a bunch of hiss (noise to signal ratio!).

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-07-2000, 10:33 AM:

Ken:

Simplifying a complex process usually improves quality, by reducing the opportunity for error.

Better to recover and reuse the silver, than to have it go into a landfill or up a smokestack.

If any of your color prints made since the early 1980's have significant dye fading, they weren't made on Kodak film. Or you are storing them in a hot oven or attic.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-07-2000, 10:26 PM:

Alright John, I can see we are going to have to put on our boxing gloves...

>>"The old (cyan + magenta + silver) had a different cross-modulation optimization density for white light vs. red LED readers, causing compromises in cross-mod distortion."<<

The first part of the above statement is ok but the second is, at best, misleading. There is no compromise with the "old" process. It works best with white light (or infrared). The CORRECT statement is that it is not OPTIMIZED for red light.

Your statement would lead someone to believe that it (cyan+magenta+silver) is a compromize for all of the light sources listed. This seems to be typical mumbo-jumbo from the red light proponents.

High-Magenta, on the other hand, IS the best COMPROMISE for all three of the listed light sources. That is, it degrades infrared, and white light but improves the soundtrack for red light. The layperson will notice that the high-magenta soundtrack will sound less harsh on high modulation when using a red reader. The other light sources go down in reproduction quality.

>>"Since a majority of theatres (60%) now have red LED readers, "high magenta" tracks are better, since they are compatible with both readers."<<

Hold on there partner! The old applicated soundtracks are "compatible" with both readers too. Your arguement should have been that since the majority of theatres are using red light sources (60%), that high-magenta should be used since it will offer an IMPROVEMENT for those theatres over using the old tracks. The fact that staying with the old track and using infrared LEDs and reverse scan readers would be the best of all possible worlds at the moment, not withstanding.

>>"Applicated silver soundtracks have been problematic since their introduction fifty years ago.<<"

John, what hasn't been problematic over the last 50 years? Sure there can be cases pointed to that will show problems with applicated tracks but do you really believe that all will be so rosey with the cyan dye tracks? Forgetting the inherent decrease in S/n and increase in distortion, do you really think that we will have 100% sucess? For the past 50 or so years of the applicated track there have been an awful lot of sucessful prints to stack up against the ones that had problems.

It is the fall back track to all three digital systems and everyone here has been in a situation of being thankful they had that antiquated soundtrack to fall back to (not to mention those that still only have analog in some or all of their theatres).

I think this industry is a bit mature in it's life to be making this kind of switch at the moment without legal requirement to do so. The people being asked to bare the expense are NOT the people that stand to benefit. There is no technical benefit to be had for the people footing the bill. In fact, they stand to lose quality. That just doesn't make much sense.

Now that being said. The issue of the environmental impact (long term) can not be overlooked and that someday maybe the EPA, or like agency will legislate the redeveloped track out of use. As such, it is wise to look to a solution which the red reader with a cyan dye track offers. With the digital tracks taking the limelight of theatre sound. The implementation of the high-magenta track now with 60+% of theatre equipped with red readers makes good sense. Certainly new projector purchases should be with red readers (except those that plan to play older , archival fare). The slight reduction in quality with the high-magenta track at this time will be less noticable, especially when combined with a reverse scan reader that offers so much improvement in other areas.

It is the installed base of non red readers I take issue with. There is no incentive for them to switch to a red reader. Unless it comes along for the ride with a reverse scan reader. And since over 60% of the theatres are now using red readers, it would make the most sense when upgrading an older system to go with a red reader as well since future analog tracks will be geared with them in mind (eg high magenta).

So there you have it. I'm sorry to those that find that I have repeated myself so many times.

And finally, I am NOT against installing red readers, in fact, I have installed a great many as upgrades to exciter lamp based systems (and even to Jaxlights) in addition to new systems. The only negative comments I have ever heard were from an exhibitor that plays many older titles in addition to current fare.

For those that don't know, I am not in any way mad at John so please don't read that into my post. In fact, at SMPTE P-3 meetings, it is normally Ioan Allen I tend to go after ;-)

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-10-2000, 06:04 AM:

Steve:

No boxing gloves needed .

You are correct that since the majority (60%) of analog readers are now red LED, the "high magenta" track is the best way to go now, since it is compatible with BOTH white and red light readers. Conversion is well underway, with some labs and distributors using only "high magenta" (magenta dye + silver) tracks.

You are also correct that anyone installing a new analog reader would be wise to go with a reverse scan red LED reader, for the advantages it offers TODAY.

Despite what some may think, cyan dye tracks are not a fait accompli --- the trade testing that begins early next year will decide if the movie industry procedes with a total conversion. But once the industry decides to convert, the change is likely to be rapid, since distributors and exhibitors abhor "dual inventory" prints. There could be a real scramble for theatres that haven't converted to red readers. Installing red LED reverse scan readers is a wise thing to do, whether you favor cyan dye tracks or not.

The unknown factor is whether environmental legislation anywhere (national or state or local) will FORCE conversion. The film manufacturers and laboratories are being proactive in exploring and implementing more environmental products, processes, and procedures. It's the right thing to do.