Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Tail Wraps

This is topic Tail Wraps in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001245

Posted by David Emery (Member # 382) on 07-29-2000, 02:34 AM:

This is no joke.

Has anybody ever seen or had to deal with a tail wrap ever?

I have never seen one until today when one of our projectionests called me up to help fix a problem with the projector. When I got up there I saw the tail of the film was pulled into the center of the film and wrapped around the paying out film over 30 times. Luckly he cought this early before it caused dammage to the film. To pull out the mess we had to cut the payout film to untangle it from the tail of the film. Then we took the 50 feet of tail that was wraped around the payout film and straightened it out and had to place it on the floor. Then we spliced the payout film back togeather. As the projectionest started the movie the other guy had to guide the tail back on the platter and place the suction cup back on the film.

Only 30 min of the film had gone though the projector when this happened. It took us about 5 min to get the film back in running shape and started again.

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 07-29-2000, 02:56 AM:

The only tail-wraps I've ever had to deal with are the ones where the tail slides off the platter and gets wrapped underneath (Speco LP-270's). Try this on for fun - the Green Mile (182 minutes) brain-wrapped, tail-wrapped, and threw itself off a set of Christie AW3's - all this w/ more than 60 minutes of film left to run. That was the worst problem I've ever seen (luckily, the booth manager of our theater was working, I was the usher manager, but it was interesting to see). Basically what happened was static electricity pulled two pieces of film through the swinging arm on the brain at once, this kicked the arm into full speed, which jerked loose the tail, and eventually, the entire print slid off the platter because of the high speed at which it was spinning.

Posted by Michael Cunningham (Member # 210) on 07-29-2000, 03:49 AM:

Oh yes, tail wraps are the ultimate hell of wraps. Usually, the tail comes loose from whatever retaining device you are using (suction cup, Teco pad, etc.) and the tail begins to unwind from the print as it gets slung around. When enough length has been unwound, the tail will either wrap around the arm holding up the platter or fling upward over the film paying out through the centerfeed. Either situation is a horror to fix, especially the second, but are, thankfully, easy to prevent. Just remember that no matter what size your complex is, you must visit ALL of your projectors a maximum of 15 minutes apart. If you're not almost constantly walking in circles around your booth, you're going to have trouble like this.

-Mike

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-29-2000, 10:27 AM:

The way to avoid wrap hell is to use a wrap detection device. We have them for our Cinemecannica platters - they consist of a roller mounted on a vertical track (about a foot and a half tall), around which the film is laced after it comes out of the feed unit. The roller is held at the bottom of the track by a weak magnet, and there is a microswitch located about three inches up the column.

If there is a very slight, brief resistance (e.g. residual joining tape causing a little bit of stickiness) then the device will absorb the shock without operating the microswitch. But if there is a very serious wrap, the roller will become detached from the magnet, rise up the column and operate the microswitch, which shuts down the whole system, raises the houselights and goes to nonsync. An alarm then rings in all the projection boxes (we have three, with a lot of stairs and corridors between each, and so cannot constantly be monitoring all our projectors) and we then go and sort the problem out.

This detector has been triggered 2-3 times now and has always shut the system down before any significant damage was caused to either the film or the feed unit.

Ours were supplied by a British company called Sound Associates, which also makes them for Christie platters. See www.soundassociates.co.uk. Sorry - don't know anything about US availability.

Posted by Greg Pauley (Member # 503) on 07-29-2000, 11:49 AM:

Having had this problem happen to me a few times over the years, I place this high on my list during training of new projectionist. Fortunately this kind of wrap doesn't happen enough to get the respect of most new projectionist regardless of how much you preach. Having a tension failsafe will help (everyone should have a wrap detector), but once the tail gets pulled under the print into the brain it's to late. Here is the cause most of the time. The tail is tucked under the print to keep the tail in place. Instead of tucking under 3/4 of the width of the tail the entire width is tucked under the print. Remember, when the payout of the print reaches this area, you are pulling the film over the tucked tail. If the tucked tail has a nick or label attached, this will allow the film to grab the tail and pull into the brain. David, I feel your pain, this is the worst type of wrap to deal with.

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 07-29-2000, 01:35 PM:

There are two sure-fire ways to prevent tail-wraps.

1. Take a scrap piece of film, wrap it around the outside of the film, tape it to itself and lable the film band as belonging to that print. Everytime the film is over, just place the film band around the print.

2. Bevan-Poo

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-29-2000, 03:00 PM:

I've always tucked the tail and have never had any problems whatsoever, provided the platter is timed correctly, or perhaps I should say is timed the way I do it which isn't to manufacturer specs, but works far better (it's in the "tips" section) and provided there are no burrs on the platter deck's surface (buffing the platters is also in the "tips" section).

I have found with un-buffed platters that have developed a glaze on the surface, the following type of tuck (inward tuck) seems to be the only way to make them stay put. Note this tuck is NOT pulled tight. If it was pulled tight, the film would have a stronger tendency to straighten out and become untucked, causing a tail wrap over the edge.

However, if the platter deck surface is not scuffed up or glazed, this type of tuck (outward tuck) is the superior method. Note this tuck IS pulled tight, for in this instance, the film will have a natural tendency to pull inward and stay put instead of flopping over the edge of the platter.

Here is what I am referring to when I say "buffed platter". Look at the middle deck in this picture. It is a platter that is less than a year old. Now look at the top deck. That is a "buffed" platter (as performed in the "tips" section of this web site) and was equally as disgusting as the middle platter before buffing. Buffing the decks places very tiny grooves in the surface, which work like grooves on a wet road to help you keep your car on the road. In this instance with even a platter timed not so perfectly, the film will stay put!

Regardless, labels should NEVER be placed on the last 5 feet of the tail. The tape makes the film too stiff and will in many cases cause the film to try to "straighten itself out", pulling the tuck. Also, labels generally have a tendency to catch on the final layers of film it is sitting under, also causing a wrap.

Operators using SPECO and other platters that use "braces" underneath the platter decks must be absolutely certain they put their tucks ON TOP OF one of these braces. The decks tend to "sink" between the braces and tucks will not stay put.

The picture below was simulated on a Christie, but will ONLY work on SPECO platters due to their magnetic decks. What you do is call your local pizza shop and ask for some "business card magnets". Then secure the tail like pictured below. This works ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC on SPECO platters due to their sluggish start/stop motion.

Failing to add extra tail leader is a very bad thing for two reasons. First, the end of the credits tend to get scratched and chewed up. Second, the polyester stocks that are currently being used to print on are very stiff as opposed to acetate base film. Thus, they will act like having a label on the end of the print (but not quite as bad). This stiffer film likes to straighten itself out and once that happens, your tuck is gone. Large 1000 foot rolls of clear (or in this case white) leader without frame lines can be had for under $50 and will last an awfully long time. As an added bonus of using acetate tail leader, if those last couple of wraps of film get tangled (which is where it generally happens), the "extended acetate tail" will just break.

I'm not a big fan of suction cups, Stick-A-Poos or Bevan-poos (although if you prefer to use one of these, the Bevan-poo is clearly the best). My reasoning for this is the poos are only half as tall as the film it is trying to hold! If the tail end of the film has a warp to it, it can fly right over the poo. I don't like suction cups because the suction always wears out before the feature is halfway over. Taped down, the suction cups do a good job though, but can make that platter surface not so pretty. A major problem with the poos and suction cups is if the feed arm ever swings into full throttle and the platter jumps to warp speed, it will leave the print sitting still (kind of like ripping a tablecloth out from under a table full of dishes very quickly). When this happens, poo or suction cup, you will get a tail wrap. Another big negative with poos or suction cups is if the print should get off center for any reason (generally caused by an operator pulling the center ring out by one side, thereby pushing the film slightly off center by the opposite edge of the ring), what will happen is the poos or suction cups are no longer "against" the film roll and the tail is free to fly.

Film "belts" (where a loop of film is spliced together to be the same size as the outer diameter of the film roll and is then placed around the print) do work extremely well, but are a major pain to put on and take off. Also, as different platter decks take up with slightly different tension (most notable on the AW3s), the belt will need to be a different size.

All in all, the simple tuck is the easiest way to go and I've ran forever with them without any problems. Just make sure your platters are timed properly and you buff your decks...then forget about it.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-29-2000, 05:41 PM:

OK Brad, stop trying to push up your postings count with these 1500 word answers.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-29-2000, 05:48 PM:

Sorry 'bout that. How's this?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-29-2000, 05:50 PM:

I have used a roll of velcro around the outside to make a outer ring and that seems to work well

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-29-2000, 10:16 PM:

If your platter is magnetic, like SPECO, use two magnets at the tail and the film in an "S" around them.

You can also make extra magnets out of (clean) plastic Coke bottle tops. (The screw-off kind from 20oz plastic bottles.)
Just get some donut magnets and glue them up inside. We have made a bunch of them.

The only caveat is that you can't push the magnets too tight together. The film has to pull free from the magnets or you they'll get pulled into the brain.

Posted by John T. Mellor (Member # 468) on 07-30-2000, 08:00 PM:

Tail wraps I have been teaching all of the theaters that service to make a loop of scrap film and put it around the out side someone else in an earlier posting does the same thing . Tbest way to prevent the problem is to do everthing you can and then periodicaly check how its running ,Today to many people push the start button then walk away . thats a formula for disaster , but it keeps me ina job

John

Posted by George Roher (Member # 91) on 07-30-2000, 10:21 PM:

I have had a couple tail wraps due to polyester film going nuts. It's not much fun

The worst tail wrap I've seen was when visiting a theatre I used to work for. "American Beauty" had wrapped so bad that the operators were cursing and yelling, and unraveling what seemed like 200 feet of film down the long booth. There was a new trainee running the booth who never checked on his shows after starting them. And they were having tail wraps with "American Beauty" on a daily basis! You would think that after it happens once to certain print, the operator would want to keep an eye on it during future showings. That print had a million repair splices in it and the head operator remarked, "by the time we're done with this movie, there won't be anything left." He was, of course, very frustrated with the people management was sending into the booth.

As to securing the tail, I used to work in a theatre that cut 1 inch cores and used them to clamp the tail of the print to the edge of the platter. This is when I had my problems with the tail coming lose and wrapping. It is the worst method of securing the tail I have used. Stick-a-poos and tail tucks have given me little trouble. I've also used magnets on Speco platters which does work very well.

Posted by Tom Kroening (Member # 201) on 07-31-2000, 08:56 PM:

Hmm, to be honest I've never had a tail wrap before (unless you count forgetting the tape after moving prints which happened alot when i first started out). I tell everyone to tuck the film down and leave it lose so It doesn't pop out when the film gets to the credits. Most common mistakes are made on the nuemade platters when someone has a hard time tucking because of the stickier surface. Sometimes I'll see a tuck that extends to the very edge of the platter deck almost touching the motor drive wheel. Its really a pain to fix tucks on those nuemade platters because they don't stop at all durring payout. The worst tuck i've seen so far is one of those backwards tucks with the film rising up over the top edge of the print *shudder* Well, unless you count the tuck i used to hold a loop of film that was bulging from the middle of an ameoba shapped print. Note to self: Don't try to fix a film that has 4 bad splices all at once. I was litterally on my hands and knees in prayer "please just let this go through...." Surprisingly enough it did, so i spared the other projectionist's life. : P

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-01-2000, 06:52 AM:

I agree with Brad that the condition of the platter surface and proper platter "timing" are very important in avoiding sliding rolls and "platter fling". Proper restraint of the tail lap is also critical to avoiding "tail wraps" and jams.

Kelmar Systems Inc. http://www.kelmarsystems.com has developed a non-slip anti-static "platter mat". Another device that helps prevent film jams and sliding film rolls is the Non-Slip Platter Disk (patent applied for), sold by Projection Technology, Inc. (phone: 516/576-0767). This unique invention by projectionists Stuart Boritz, Edmund Nardone, and Andrew Fetherman fits on the platter surface and helps separate the film laps if they stick together, and provides a non-slip surface so the film roll doesn't slide.

Other ideas were discussed in my article "Platter Patter" in the September 1999 issue of Kodak's "Film Notes for Reel People":
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/reel/september99/pointers.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Michael McGillion (Member # 493) on 08-02-2000, 07:03 AM:

In my booth we use the clear-film-wrapped-around-the-print method. I don't think that they are a major pain to use, and the reliablity of them is worth the effort. Enough so that the thought of a print w/o one of these 'belts' makes me nervous. The one thing these belts don't prevent is the print being thrown off the platter - if the whole print wants to move, it's going to.

With one of these belts on, issues such as stiff tails aren't really a problem - the whole film is orientated the same direction (ie up ) - this means you can always see the name of the print, on the print. Another thing we do is write the name of the print on a piece of tape, and stick that on the tail - the name is always easy to read and allows the members of our booth to get 'creative' - no problems like Joe was talking about in his July review.

Incidentally, I have a question to ask about that review; in the pic of the "me myself irene" tail - if the word "me" is at the head, and "irene" at the tail, and your platters spin counter clockwise, then it wouldn't matter if the soundtrack was up or down, right? The label would still be backwards.

And with all due respect Joe, shouldn't someone with your experience and versatility be spending less time complaining about the orientation of lettering on the tail leader and more time bagging out Christie?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-02-2000, 07:23 AM:

For those who prefer to make a "band" to go around the feature film roll, Kodak's subsidiary FPC offers very stiff 35mm processing machine leader:
http://www.fpcfilm.com/US/en/motion/FPC/fpc/proc_mach_specs.html

For example, Item Number 9100 is FPC Blue Transparent Uncoated Polyester Film Support, 7.0 mils thick (regular print film base is 4.7 mils thick), and perforated with regular print film perforations (KS-1870). This leader is also stiff enough to use as a "straight edge" in aligning projector components. In 1000-foot rolls, it's less than 10 cents ($0.10) per foot.

This stuff is TOUGH!

Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 08-02-2000, 10:31 AM:

Brad,

Where do you get that white leader? I checked with my supplier and they don't carry it, but if I can get a part (stock) number for it I can probably have them get it for me.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-02-2000, 10:47 AM:

Dave:

FPC also carries "FPC White Movie Leader, Acetate Base, Opaque (985) white leader suitable for leaders and trailers on release prints. Thickness 6.0mil." They also have "frameline" and "lightstruck" leaders.
CLICK HERE

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-02-2000, 12:24 PM:

The white leader you saw in the picture is actually "white painted leader" and is not regularly available through normal cinema dealers. For that matter, the clear acetate tail leader I use isn't available through normal channels either. They come from a special supplier and is made by Film Conversion Company if I remember correctly.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-02-2000, 12:28 PM:

Brad:

FPC also carries "painted leader". Don't know if it's similar to the one you use:
CLICK HERE

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-02-2000, 12:44 PM:

Hmmmm, that just may be the same thing!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-02-2000, 03:35 PM:

Michael,

I think Joe was trying to point out that with prints from Deluxe you can't simply put a piece of tape behind the title on the tail leader to have an nice professional looking label like this...

Of course, for those who like to "re-name" their prints to more suitable names, a little creativity with the splicer will still get the job done.

Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 08-02-2000, 04:14 PM:

Brad, that Pokemon tail cracked me up!

What is 'painted leader?' And what is the difference between it and acetate film stock? Will it break under pressure?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-02-2000, 04:44 PM:

Painted leader is just clear acetate film that has been painted a color. In the picture above demonstrating tucks, white painted leader was used.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-02-2000, 05:36 PM:

John what is hazy leader
Is any painted leaders available on estar stock

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-03-2000, 06:02 AM:

Gordon:

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the details of every type of leader FPC sells. I suggest going to their website, which has a brief description of each leader, and a way of asking for additional information:
http://www.fpcfilm.com/US/en/motion/FPC/fpc/fpc_main.html

My contact person at FPC is Christel Pareigis. Her e-mail address is christel@kodak.com Telephone: (323)468-5774

Not sure if all the leaders are available on both polyester and acetate base. Since some of the leaders are made on recycled print stock, I wouldn't be surprised to see more polyester base available.

Posted by Michael Pace (Member # 553) on 08-04-2000, 09:19 AM:

Just joined Film-Tech and would like to present our way of preventing tail wraps.
We place an extra wrap of film around the print and tape the ends together. Also on this wrap of film is all the information relating to this film eg. FANTASIA 2000 -
W/S SRD DTS SDDS

When the film tails out the wrap is left on the platter and then re-wrapped around the film for the next screening. This eliminates the use of suction cups or having to tuck the end of the film under the edge of the main body of the print.

We have been doing this for over 31/2 years now and we have not had one tail wrap problem.

------------------

Posted by Joseph Pandolfi (Member # 223) on 08-04-2000, 09:06 PM:

As far as preventing tail wraps we also make a film belt out of black leader enough length to get around those three hour monsters, and also use and I call them "Hula Hoops" -- Which worked good last Tuesday while running The Patriot. If I did not use it there would have been a problem.

Also while I'm on here does anyone do this by labeling prints with all the information about the print. For example In Red Sharpie Pen Ink (For Scope) We would label as follows "SCARY MOVIE #2"(for multiple prints of the same title) -- Print #1234 -- Scope -- 5 Reels -- SR/SRD/DTS/SDDS -- 7/6/00 -- JJP (and after my initals comments like Reel 4 replaced or came from Mega Monster Plex in Your Town.) Curious if anybody else does that.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-04-2000, 09:22 PM:

I mark the back side of the identification tape (which is used to display the pre-printed title on the tail) the theater's name and print number. Keeping up with flat/scope and sound formats has never been an issue.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 08-05-2000, 02:08 AM:

I insist that the end tape be 1/2" to stay well clear of the sprocket holes. Of course, anyone with an IQ higher then "room temperature" should be able to keep 3/4" away, but it doesn't work out that way.

I make them put as so: "TITAN: DOA" "FLAT" "SR-D SDDS DTS" Big bold block letters.

We have people who work here only occasionally, and can't get used to what film is in what. Also, if the show shuts down for a problem, the automation brings the lens back to flat. They are usually in a panic, and restarts the show without knowing what the formats are (and the cues have passed, so the automation won't put it back.) Big letters let's them read both formats while spinning.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 08-05-2000, 02:18 AM:

Hey Mr. Miller...that Pokemon film...it has a different title out here.

(Got a lot of time on your hands or something...hmmm?)

Welcome to the show, Michael. How's Townsville these days?

------------------
The Olympics are coming...RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!