I don't think they changed it to a belt driven design because it was superior to the geared version.
How did you come up with all does questions and answers?
Others I just made up, obviously.
Curtis, what chain do you work for?
Does Christie really believe that they will get people to buy their Digital projectors if they won't support anything "after the check has cleared"? They may buy one or two, but when the fit hits the shan, and Christie won't support them, will companies buy more of them? I don't think so.
It really is too bad that they can build a really good product, ie platter, but build crappy projectors. Worse of all they won't help, or admit that "their product is at fault".
The platter is a really good design. But the components they are using now are getting cheap, like the LED assembly. Brand new out of the box shows up as OL (overload) on my multi-meter. I have had three new LEDs do this so far. They are useless. If they could get the older, better LEDs back, along with the fuse-less motor cards, the platters would be unstoppable once again.
Now it's a monthly chore and Christie won't admit their new parts are crap.
As for the SR-D readers, Christie refuses to send us the update, even though I consistently mention the problems we have been having with the current models for the last 2 and a half years. Since the beginning, they have wanted us to pay for the center pivots. Not gonna do that!
If you read my review, you would have seen that as far as print shedding was concerned, one of the prints in question had MUCH reduced shedding upon going to another theater with different projectors. Please read the entire review next time. Christie always blamed Kodak as well.
It is interesting that I have received many e-mails agreeing with the review, as well as the posts on this thread. So is everybody but you incompetant? My guess is no. You are the only one so far to disagree. I certainly can't please everybody all the time, and that is not my goal. Sorry if the review burned ya.
David, if some company makes a product and it doesn't work and then they make a revision so it WILL work, it should be their responsibility to cough up and admit their first effort was a bust and should supply everyone who purchased the inferior version with the update free of charge. Christie did NOT do that. It is important you understand Joe was not reviewing the Christie projector with all of the upgrades, bells and whistles. He was reviewing what he had access to. Sadly, that is what far too many people have to work with, so in that matter his review is right on target.
If Christie had've cared enough about their customers, Joe would've had a booth full of updated projectors and readers to work with. However, that is not what happened. Christie refused to admit fault on their product, would not replace the defective items, and would not even send one of their own techs out to the site to "prove" that their equipment was not at fault. That is what Joe reviewed. Hopefully Christie will learn to take care of their customers a little bit better or reports like this one will continue to pop up and word will spread. Why would anyone buy a product if it was known that the company did not support even just one of their customers? I certainly wouldn't and I feel Joe's review was justified. Just because he didn't "bench test" the machine doesn't mean that his review was not dead accurate.
Remember, the whole point of his reviews is to test regular assembly line products (not specially tweeked ones) in REAL theaters (again, not a special situation) and to explain how reliable and well the product performed. Customer service and product support is a very important part of that too. Surely you will agree.
(A side note: We have 5 year-old projectors that leak oil. The manufacturer says; "All projectors leak; nothing can be done." They've been making projectors for, what, 90 years? This is not rocket science. A design error by one engineer having a bad can effect hundreds of operators for the next 10 years! If your car had some of these defects, you could have more recourse then provided by projector manufacturers.)
A problem, though, is there's heavy pressure to make projectors (and other "booth" products) as cheap as possible. Years ago, when a theater owner bought two projectors for his single-screen, spending an additional $3-4 thousand was not going to break the bank.
Now with a 20-plex, owners try to shave even a few dollars off of everything. And with manufacturers pushing the engineers to get new designs out to capture a shrinking market, mistakes are going to happen, and there no money left to go back and "fix" earlier designs.
As I said, while I agree with Brad, projector manufacture is not a business I'd want to be in today.
Sinplex and Century are owned by the same company, right? (If so) don't be surprised if one of them goes away to save costs.
Nobody is forcing Christie (or other manufacturers) to make projectors so the cost excuse is no excuse. If they or others sell at too cheap a price to make money then it is their own damn fault.
The fact that in the 15-20 years that Christie projectors have been in the Washington DC area and just about all have been removed and canned is indicative of the product and support since there are more than one technician and theatre company at play here (actually there are several and their is a concenus). Can you imagine a Simplex or a Century considered obsolete after just 15 years? There is clearly something wrong here. We just pulled the last P-35 out of service that we had to deal with and it is heading to our "shelf of shame". For such a well designed projector, Christie sure seems to need to make an awful lot of major changes to it. Personally, I think the machining is excellent and possibly the best. Everytime I have changed a part in one, the fit was perfect. I remember checking out the "new" curved gate when it came out in the 80s and pulled a straight gate P-35 out...after bolting the new head on, I just moved the turret over (with the lenses in tact) and aperture plates...and everything lined up on screen perfectly, no nudging was even needed!
The most reliable machines in cinema history have been the gear driven ones and oil bath machines (when kept in oil) tend to have the least amount of parts failures. Why Christie is insisting on the belt driven design is beyond me. I wish Simplex would bring back the gear driven soundhead. Again, if kept in oil (of the proper weight) it will run for decades. And while we are at it, design it with digital sound in mind so it isn't an old mono-optical head with digital stuff kludged in.
John I seriously doubt that either Simplex or Century will leave the market before film does. They both have such fans that Strong would loose sales to another manufacturer (eg Christie) if a purchaser could not get his/her preferred machine. There are those, like me who prefer the oil bath design, while others like the servicability and simplicity of Century. Both put out competent performances. Both can be picked on for their faults and both can be praised for their accomplishments.
Steve
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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Oh, sure.. I agree.. But you know what I mean; manufacturers are "encouraged" to make them as cheaply as they can. For example, there's no safety-fire shutter on our Simplex PR projectors. It's not really needed; the automation will close the regular zipper shutter when the failsafes drop. I would rather have the safety-fire shutter- it's more foolproof. But they probably felt they could reduce the price a bit, so...
I'm guessing, but bringing back Simplex's gear driven soundhead would cost too much money in manufacturing costs, and would increase maintaince costs. Awhile ago, someone at r.a.m.t. noted that it was probably cheaper (if money is all you cared about) to not maintain equipment and just throw it away after 7 years or so, then to pay (in labor) to maintain the equipment. People have accused car manufacturers of this for years.
Since accounting people (not "showmen") make and run theaters, that the way it goes.
As far as either Simplex or Century leaving the market place, well I'm just guessing, of course. But why would the same company sell two competing products? Even Coke got rid of "New Coke" after a while. Also, if everyone dislikes Christie so much, they aren't really in the running. Cinemecannica is perceived as hard to get parts for (and expensive.) Philips are probably the best value, but are also perceived as expensive.
Accounting people sure don't care about what brand of projector they buy; you could tell them a dog-beater movment was the way to go, and they'd buy it if the price was right. It has already been demonstrated that Americans no longer have "brand loyalty" to car manufacturers (like they did in the 1950's and 60's.) Whoever owns Simplex and Century has a "strong" hold on the market and can do almost what they want.
Also, I don't think modern projectors are made that well. I feel all the machining technology that has been developed over the last 30 years as gone more to making projectors cheaper rather then better. I think that the reason some of those old projectors got to be 40 years old was because they were maintained properly for their first 20 years or so. Then the (good) operators were let go.
But, hey, even though I hated DIVX, I thought it was going to be "the" DVD type format. Glad I was wrong about that one, too!
Owners also show repair and upgrade costs on their P&Ls each quarter.
Are we talking about real theatre owners, or venture capital types who build on the ragged edge of the margin in order to suck in dollars to finance (or convince others to provide financing) for their next venture?
Believe it or not, there are still one or two guys out there who still build and operate theatres to make a living because that's just what they do.
I work for a company like this. We run Ballantyne because we have become pretty good at keeping them going. They are easy to work on and fairly easy to maintain. They require a little attention, but so long as it is provided, they work.
I've never bought a Christie projector so I can't really comment on this thread.
All I know is that I would not want to be the guy who did this if these concerns with quality and tech support are real.
The big chains could take a lesson from the little guys here. It is a "big deal" when we "buy" anything! The true test comes when we add up the headaches and costs after the purchase.
Anything that posesses moving parts will eventually break (I think that Newton said this *grin*).
How quickly can something be repaired? How much do repairs cost? These are two questions that the "mega-chains" never ask. They are tabulating installation costs for the investors.
I would really like to see a comparison between "theatre chains that have always been theatre chains" and "venture cap people who wanted to make a quick buck" regarding the long term survivability of companies.
Folks, we show movies! Our tools are f&*$%#@! EXPENSIVE!! Even the slightest inquiry as to their maintenance costs (while providing quality presentations), is worth looking at.
We basically deal with Ballantyne/Strong, Dolby, DTS, QSC, JBL, EV, SRT and Component Engineering. We do this because technical support is just a phone call away (and because the stuff usually just "WORKS!").
The companies that we work with all have a Bob, Sean, Ralph, (Lonnie and Ken), or even an "Oscar" who always answers the phone should we call!
Oscar gets quotation marks because he will fix stuff that's a hundred years old!
The "big guys" listen to the accountants who do the install estimates. The little guys are in it for the long run. We just want it to keep going.
Russ
It's done all the time:
Ford Motor Company has Lincoln, Mercury, Ford, Mazda, Volvo, Jaguar, Auston-Martin, and Land Rover.
General Motors has Cadillac, Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Chevy, GMC, Saturn, Saab, Opel, Vauxhaull, Holden.
Chrysler/Daimler has Mercedes, Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth, and Jeep.
Kodak has MAX, GOLD and ROYAL GOLD films for consumer photography:
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/film/index.shtml
Having a variety of brands/models gives the customer choice among a range of features and price.
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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Accountants buy projectors; they don't care about features. Since not that many projectors are sold, I would think it's a fairly competitive market. How many projectors were sold last year? One thousand? Car makers lose interest if they don't sell at least 30,000 units.
Here's a question to everybody: Let's say Century and Simplex combined the best features of each. So, it's a semi-already-proven design. We'll call this a; "Cenplex." To save manufacturing costs, let's also say they decide not to make any more regular Century or Simplexs (except parts, and even those cost more.) Parts made in a larger scale for this "Cenplex" would be cheaper, too. Whatever you pay for (say) gate bands would be 30% cheaper. It would be a one-size-fits-all (no 70mm, two-lens turret, etc.)
If they offered this new projector to the theaters for $4000, all things considered, would you buy it?
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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Kinoton/Norelco may have high parts cost but they rarely need any parts. Just normal film path parts that are not very expensive, and change the oil regularly. FP-20's and DP-70's are probably THE most reliable projectors ever built. Indeed the Ballantyne projector utilized many of the DP-70's and the FP-20's features. The verticle shaft with gears ground into it from the DP-70, the framing coupler, although for unknown reasons Ballantyne went the plastic route here.The bronze coupler in the Norelco FP series lasts forever. Indeed Norelco/ Kinoton, Simplex, Century, Ballantyne when properly maintained will generally be the most trouble free and least cost to maintain of the bunch.
The key here is to keep the machinery spotless and use a good synthetic machinery oil instead of regular projector oil. Synthetics will lubricate better, last longer and will not break down like regular oil does. LaVezzi oil is a good choice here. Also do not use Lubriplate on any gears, use Super Lube instead.
Mark
If the intermittent locks up it will stop the machine cold. The shutter (as a result of momentum) will still want to spin. The fiber gear will simply disintegrate (cheap and easy to fix) instead of taking a chunk out of the shaft (send it to the factory).
Century has to be my all time favorite projector to place in the field. You can abuse them for years! While people make fun of Ballantyne oil leaks, I have never seen a Simplex that didn't have a bucket or paint roller tray under it to protect the floor! (LOL)
Of the three, Ballantynes are the easiest to service.
I am still trying to convince an "old codger" tech of ours to post here. I think he eventually will. His name is Mike McKee and when you see him you should ask him how he got the name "Cross-eyed Mike".
He started out hating Ballantynes, but now he likes them.
Russ
Pat
I think Simplexes are better, but they are more expensive to buy. Also, they are more involved to repair.
Now, (going against the grain!) I've had very good luck with Cinemeccanicca (V8's and V9's.) They are more expensive and the parts are out-of-sight. Hardly ever had to fix any big problems. But, one time we had to change a shutter shaft on a V8, and holy smokes! What a major job- everything has to come apart. Took all day.
So, what's better? A cheap projector that's easy to fix, or an expensive one that takes all day?
On my previous ramblings: They will probably never get rid of Simplex or Century!
At my past two (daytime) jobs, they made stuff in big quanities. So, reducing anything "redundent" was consitered good. And I must admit, I'm in that same mode. But, it is true that new tooling costs may be more than would be saved than if existing tooling were kept and used.
At one place where I worked, I designed a 19" rack to hold some fiber-optic equipment. There was a question of how it should be grounded to meet the (then new) EEC rules (the equivalent of USA's FCC, UL, etc.) We wanted to meet those rules. It allows you to put the "CE" mark on your equipment, and without it, you can't sell a thing in Europe. All I wanted to do was punch a 0.125" hole in a panel, so field people could mount a grounding stud later (and not have to drill a hole.)
At the design review, everyone was going; "Are you crazy?! That hole will add 15 cents to every panel!" We were going to make about 5000 panels. The accountants had everything figured out to the penny to make the bid and were reluctant to spend the extra money.
I too work for one of the worlds largest cinema chains as David Johnson does (I used to work with him but that's another story!). We use Christie, Kinoton and Cinemeccanica as our main brands but also have just about everything else made in the last 30 years.
We have had a few disasterous Christie installations (5 Ultramittants in 12 months), but some very solid ones too. One Christie, located close to me, has never skipped a beat in 5 years and it is in a remote projection booth with little daily attention other than cleans and threads.
As a large chain we continue to purchase from several manufacturers in projection and sound (Dolby mostly but also DTS and SDDS). The absolute keys to running ANY equipment is professional installation and most importantly experienced, dedicated projection staff. In most of our locations in this country we now have at least one projectionist with 20 years plus experience.
I will always hire and train people who are interested and dedicated to the craft of cinema projection. Film has a lot of life in it yet. The biggest single thing that any cinema can do to improve their presentation is have a projectionist who knows how to clean (lenses, port glasses, mirrors, film path, platter rollers, payouts) thread-up consistantly, understand what screen presentation is and maintain the equipment(dolby tone once per fortnight, oil & belt changes general adjustments).
And Oh, one very important thing, check the auditoriums once per shift for sound level, temperature and a patrons view of focus.
David Kilderry
I can't stand it when I have a nice theory all worked out in my head, but then someone wrecks it using actual facts! Darn...!