Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Oklahoma in 70mm 30fps Todd-AO

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-02-2000, 02:47 PM:

Scott Norwood posted this on the rec.arts.movies.tech newsgroup. If it's the same print I saw in Hollywood a few years ago, it's a bit worn, but still MAGNIFICENT on a big screen!

Subject:Oklahoma in Todd-AO - Minneapolis area

FYI:

OKLAHOMA - two week engagement starting 8/4.

70MM TODD-AO 30fps print! Coming from archive of the Academy of MPAS (the
Oscars).

Heights Theatre
40th & Central Av NE
Columbia Heights MN

Recording 763-788-9079
Office 763-789-4992
Dairy Queen next door 763-781-7856

--
Scott Norwood: snorwood@nyx.net, snorwood@redballoon.net

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Bill Carter (Member # 156) on 08-02-2000, 03:07 PM:

It's true!

I'm one of the projectionists who'll be running the show. We've heard that, yes, the print does show a little wear, but is generally good. It is the last 30fps Todd-AO print left (at least that anybody will allow to go out).

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-02-2000, 03:12 PM:

Bill, we know you will do a great job! Can you give some details about the theatre and its equipment?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-02-2000, 03:14 PM:

This is probably the print that played in Boston a couple of years ago. It's very greenish (poorly timed and printed from faded negs) except for a few scenes. There's a big scratch down one side of the picture during the opening titles. Nonetheless, it is absolutely stunning to see. The higher frame rate makes a huge difference.

Posted by Martin Frandsen (Member # 74) on 08-02-2000, 03:16 PM:

Wow what a treat, a must see if your in that area. I've heard 30fps is the very best in 70mm, sad only a few TODD films where photographed with that camera speed, i beleave ''AROUND THE WORLD IN 80 DAYS'' is in a 30fps version as well. Newbie talking

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-02-2000, 03:24 PM:

Because of the frame rate difference, both "Oklahoma" and "Around the World in 80 Days" were filmed on both 30fps 65mm negative, and 24fps 35mm negative! See the history of Todd -AO on Marty Hart's wonderful "American Widescreen Museum" site:
http://www.simplecom.net/widefilm/widescreen/wingto1.htm

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-02-2000, 03:40 PM:

Who is the distributor to contact to book that print
gordon

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 08-02-2000, 03:59 PM:

It must be the same print that was screened at the Bradford Film Festival in the UK a few years ago.

It was great, long live Todd-AO!

Posted by Bill Carter (Member # 156) on 08-02-2000, 04:37 PM:

The Heights Theater is a 425-seat single screen house that has been operating since 1926. The current owners went from $1.75 sub-run to first-run art and rep when they took over about a year and a half ago.

Right now, we're running a pair of Norelco AA-II's, with a third (the parts machine) on display in the lobby. We just installed a new processor and Dolby digital for Fantasia 2000, and this will be the first mag show since that install. We completely rewired all sound and booth electrical at that time, so, as of right this minute, I don't think our mag preamps are re-wired yet. I'll try to get some pics posted soon.

The Todd-AO print of "Oklahoma" is handled by Samuel Goldwyn Studios. We were told that the rights to it are completely separate from the 35mm version. For the big one, you have to call Goldwyn. It is the only 30fps print anybody will confess to owning.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-02-2000, 05:20 PM:

I used to have a 30fps odd reel of that picture, and never did get to see it projected at that rate. Oh, I owned a pair of AA-II's alright, but didn't have anywhere to set them up as I was only 15 at the time, and my mother wouldn't hear of it!

By and by, I got tired of looking at the reel lie around, and I ended-up giving it to John Harvey about 20 years ago.

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Better Projection Pays!

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 08-02-2000, 05:30 PM:

I saw a special on American Movie Classics about the making of Oklahoma (I think it was AMC) They actually made two movies one in 70mm and one in 35mm. They showed scenes from both the 70 and the 35 simultaneously on the screen and they are subtley different! Not much, just little tonal changes in the singing and a little time difference when they would walk about and gesture etc.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 08-02-2000, 06:10 PM:

I've always been fond of this title as my dad played Judd Frye in a production back in the '60's.

I saw the 70mm 30fps version at the now defunct Columbia Theater in Atlanta in 1983. It was obviously not the print that you are speaking of as the color and contrast were stunning, not to mention the music pumping out from behind the screen was heavenly.

Up till then, I had only seen the Cinemascope version on a 16mm print.

As the film got underway, I kept thinking that I was seeing a different production. During the song "The Surrey With The Fringe On Top," there is a change that I noticed. Curley and Laurey are sitting there and Curley is singing. In the Cinemascope ver. a white moth meanders across the screen, and in the 70 version, there is not one. The stressing of some of the other lines is different, too.

I told my friends that the film was filmed twice, and they politely told me that I was an idiot.

The projector was a Shakemecanica. All I know is that it was noisy at 24 fps. It screamed at 30.

There was no flicker. I thought the image looked like I was looking in a mirror. Absolutely Beautiful.

I have the scope version on VHS, and recorded the Todd-AO version off of AMC a couple of years ago. I'd like to find a print someday..... NOT 16!

Bruce

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 08-02-2000, 07:50 PM:

I would assume this will be the same print that played a few months ago at the Egyptian in Hollywood as a part of the American Cinematheque's 70mm festival.

The print is in reasonably good shape. The combination of 30fps and wide Todd-AO lenses for the wagon-POV and moving-through-the-cornfield shots is most impressive. 30fps really does make a difference!

The Egyptian uses AA-IIs with electronic speed controls to drive the various frame rates. Booth was built by our own Larry Shaw and BL&S. Rock solid presentation.

Paul, an OOF (Otaku Over Forty)
"Otaku wa tsurai yo!" <-- Bad Japanese pun.
"It's tough being a fan!" So sue me.

Posted by Martin Frandsen (Member # 74) on 08-03-2000, 03:05 AM:

John Pytlak, does Kodak have the facility today to make a new print of Oklahoma in 70mm 30fps? As i would think it requiers a special printer for 30fps, and not just speeding up the 24fps printers?

IF the studio someday wanted a new print made will it be possibel to encode a DTS time code on a 30fps print?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-03-2000, 04:26 AM:

I don't think the projected speed of a film makes the slightest bit of difference to the printing labs. Everything is printed at warp 9 anyway.

I'm sure Karen could answer the DTS 30FPS question, but again I don't see why it couldn't work.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-03-2000, 06:46 AM:

If the original 65mm negative or duplicate negative is in good condition, it can be contact printed onto 70mm to make a new print. Frame rate does not matter. Any lab equipped to print and process 70mm can do it. But there is no easy way to convert 30fps to 24fps without introducing artifacts, so the prints of "Oklahoma" from the 65mm negative will need to be shown at 30fps.

Unfortunately, many of the 65mm negatives from the 50's and 60's have lots of physical wear, since in those days, many of the 70mm prints were made directly from the cut negative, rather than a duplicate negative. Those who saw the documentary on the Harris/Katz restoration of "My Fair Lady" can appreciate the problems.

BTW, someone saw my posting and noted that I was correct in saying "Oklahoma" was filmed in both 65mm 30fps, and 35mm 24fps. But "Around the World in 80 Days" was filmed in 65mm for BOTH 30fps and 24fps versions, and the 65mm 24fps version was optically reduced to make the 35mm release prints. Sorry for the misinformation.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-03-2000, 07:03 AM:

Just an additional thought on "Showmanship":

Can anyone imagine a producer today who would help fund development of a new film system, and go through the trouble and expense of shooting a movie in two formats (65mm 30fps and 35mm 24fps), just to provide superior presentation quality in larger theatres? Other than a few directors like James Cameron, who personally fought to have a few dozen 70mm prints of "Titanic" made, "Showmanship" has died just as surely as Mike Todd did in that plane crash.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-03-2000, 07:41 AM:

Steve Kraus posted links on r.a.m.t to photos and story of the screening of this Todd-AO print of "Oklahoma" at the recent Roger Ebert Film Festival at the Virginia Theatre in Champaign Illinois, April 26-30, 2000:
http://www.ebertfest.com/2scrapbook.htm
http://www.govst.edu/users/gaskrau/ebert.html

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 08-03-2000, 07:41 AM:

John
Showmanship is not dead, it's just very very sick. I think (hope) that there are many of us that still take pride in producing the best presentation possible. (But, I know what you mean). You just don't see that presentation publicly

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-03-2000, 08:04 AM:

Greg said: "I think (hope) that there are many of us that still take pride in producing the best presentation possible."

I know that most Film-Tech participants believe that, and hope that in each of our own ways, we can bring back the "magic" of movies presented properly, and a sense of "Showmanship". Nothing can present stories better than "film done right"!

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 08-04-2000, 11:18 PM:

May I put this forth for consideration?...

We, the projectionists ACTUALLY make the movie, NOT the directors, etc. The director records the picture onto the film but it's not until the film is projected and the light hits the screen that a movie is 'made'!

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 08-05-2000, 04:25 AM:

>>Other than a few directors like James Cameron, who personally fought to have a few dozen 70mm prints of "Titanic" made, "Showmanship" has died...<<

Coming soon...Cameron-AO? Come on James...do it!

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The Olympics are coming...RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!

Posted by Bill Carter (Member # 156) on 08-07-2000, 12:00 PM:

Well...

The first three presentations of Oklahoma! in Todd-AO have gone off without a hitch. We're getting quite a few "oohs and aahs" from audiences, but the biggest gasp is usually right at the beginning... when the curtain opens on the first credit after the overture.
Showmanship is a powerful thing, huh?

Our shows start with an overture by the house organist (the console rises out of the pit in front of the curtain). I wound up being the one to introduce this show, so after welcoming the audience, I give a very quick history of Todd-AO and actually show them a reel of 35mm and a reel of 70mm film. After proudly presenting Oklahoma! in "the miracle of Todd-AO"... auditorium lights change and the film overture starts. The overture gets applause! The curtain gets applause! It's just amazing.

This show wouldn't have been possible without T.J. Hopland of MTS here in Minneapolis. He managed to turn The Heights into a pretty respectable roadshow house, despite the usual time and money limitations. Just getting those two Norelco AA-II's moved upstairs to the booth and running was a remarkable enough accomplishment!

The Oklahoma! print, overall, is stunning. There are some timing oddities due to an obviously faded negative, but our audiences really didn't notice. The tracks are great, overall. Literally just a couple of quick "pops". There are a few scratches. The biggest problem is the wear inflicted at some point by a Century JJ. I've seen lots of standing scratches at the top of both left and right sides of 70mm prints. One of our projectionists (a veteran of original Todd-AO roadshows, by the way) says if the 70mm loop is even a perf or so too large on a JJ, it can slap against the 35mm pad roller (which is rotated out of position)and pick up those scratches. He says they always took off the 35mm pad rollers completely when running 70mm on the JJ's.

I wish more of you could make it to Minneapolis to see the show.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-07-2000, 08:05 PM:

When doing a TAP evaluation for "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" in a rare 70mm Rochester NY appearance, I winced at the classic abrasion marks from the 35mm components of a Century JJ that had been misthreaded. It only takes one misthreading, unless you clear the path.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 08-07-2000, 08:10 PM:

That 35mm pad roller can be easily removed, and replaced with another 70mm pad roller to avoid that.

But it's not *that* critical- someone was probably just careless.

Posted by Stan Gunn (Member # 554) on 08-07-2000, 08:31 PM:

I think we should return to carbon arc,
it has a warmer appearance on the screen
that seems to ad a depth to the image
that the light in a bottle can't.

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-08-2000, 11:03 AM:

When running any 70mm film on a JJ one should remove ALL optical sound head components,and all 35mm pad rollers. 70mm pad rollers should be installed where the 35mm pads were. You can disregard this if you have a front bypass machine, but do install the 70mm pads in the picture head.
70mm prints are not just expensive but a very rare and precious commodity these days so why chance it. And yes, things should be threaded to the exact perf to eliminate any chance of damage. In addition, the Showscan Guides(that most projectionists hate) should also be installed on the intermittant in place of the single roller that is provided on older JJ's. These will help prevent damage from occuring and make the machine run a bit quieter as well.
I have seen JJ's and 35/70 X-L's put out great images, but these two machines are probably responsible for more 70mm film damage that all other makes of machines combined. Nothing IMHO beats a DP-70.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-08-2000, 04:45 PM:

The trick is just to thread the machine correctly. Although I do like the guard rails to steady the lower loop and quieten down the running of 70mm, I have never bothered to remove the 35mm components as proper threading does not allow the film to slap on them. Any decent projectionist should be checking these loops on the motoring of the leader anyway just before the douser is opened. If the film doesn't slap on them during the mylar leader, the acetate feature won't slap. Sounds like someone needs new operators!

What is BAD is JJs without even the single roller underneath the intermittent for running 70mm. Most people use that foolish "2 finger loop" theory and will destroy a print with that thinking pattern.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-09-2000, 09:00 AM:

Brad,
I agree that if someone can't thread a JJ properly then they should be replaced. But then there is the real world out there, and the thousands of JJ's that are run by ushers, candy people, etc that do not have a clue about how a film can get scratched in the first place. Oddly most 70mm film scratching in a JJ takes place either on the upper 35mm pad roller, or going through the optical sound head. At least in the Chicago area where there were many JJ's at one time that was usually the case. Thats why I advocate removing all of those components and also installing 70mm pads in place of the 35mm. In Chicago we SUPPOSEDLY had qualified operators, but most 70mm prints that we ran at a large sub run house(the Tivoli) were fairly trashed by the time we got them. The 35mm pad roller and sound head scratches were the most common fault.
Even in your own screening room if you have a film pile up, having that 70mm roller on the upper may prevent some damage to several frames, or feet of film before the machine coasts to a stop. I have had several 70mm Cinerama JJ's and dual 70mm pads were stock on these machines, and I'm sure for these reasons.
Mark

Posted by Howard Johnson (Member # 62) on 08-09-2000, 04:04 PM:

I remember showing Around The World In 80 Days at the Regent Cinema in Brighton whilst My own cinema the Odeon was closed for modernising in 1968. It was very noisy running through at 30 fps on the trusty Philips Dual 70/35 projectors. The reels were very short especially at the higher speed and we seemed to be changing over every few minutes! The cinema management still insisted on showing the adverts before every show so the chief projectionist had to change one projector to 35mm and alter the speed to 24fps, and then change it back while the first reel was running on the other projector I remember being very impresssed with the film.

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