Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: I'm Scared Help Me

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Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-15-2000, 10:15 PM:

I just found out today we no longer have a service company. Apparently MTS wouldn't give Carmike the 2 million credit line they wanted. So, as of right now, I am our theatre's unofficial tech. Any problem I must handle by myself, because their won't be anyone to make a service call.

I was also informed that Carmike hasn't been able to buy essential projector parts, including bulbs, because no one will give them credit (gee, I wonder why?). We have a couple bulbs that need changing, one that has 5300 hours on it, and one that has 8,000!!!! hours on it.

And most disturbingly, the film companies have started to pull our prints and send them to the competition. This week it was only Perfect Storm, but I have a feeling this is only the beginning.

WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-15-2000, 10:38 PM:

Been there, done that, but with an independent, not a chain.

In some ways, doing your own tech work can be fun and educational, if the management at your theatre doesn't mind if you come in and spend hours tinkering with stuff. Fortunately, the place where I worked had management that was so utterly clueless that they couldn't replace fuses or change lenses without assistance (much less put tickets in the Automaticket machine), so they weren't about to refuse free labor.

The frustrating part here is that you probably don't have stuff like test films, oscilloscopes, RTAs, and the like sitting around in your booth. In that case, it's probably best to not try to adjust stuff (especially soundhead alignment!) that seems to be in OK shape. I wouldn't even try to do an A-chain without the proper test films unless everything was so screwed up that it couldn't possibly be made any worse.

8000 hours on a xenon lamp? Ouch! Post the part number in the "for sale/wanted" section; maybe someone here who works in a theatre with a "change out the lamps at the warranty period" policy could send you one from the "old bulbs" pile.

Trust me, it's amazing how much booth stuff you can get cheaply if you ask nicely or offer to trade some old stuff that you don't need anymore.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-15-2000, 10:44 PM:

Yes, 8,000 hourse. The projector was installed in October of 1997 and the lamp has not been changed since.

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 08-15-2000, 10:47 PM:

Dustin - I have sympathy for you right now.
(But on the other hand, I'm leaping for joy.) My theater is down in attendance this year, so this Carmike fiasco will only help me. Would you like me to keep you posted on what I find out? I find out quite a bit because my 8-screen splits product w/ 2 4-screen Carmikes, so my booking dept is "on the prowl" so to speak, looking for ways to grab product. I hear that you guys owe Dreamworks over $7 million in unpaid film rental, btw. You might want to consider jumping the ship before it completely sinks. Once the distributors start pulling product, it's all over. The company can't make up for lost revenue if they don't have any product to bring the customers in. But that's just my two cents worth. I'm sitting here w/ my fingers crossed, hoping that my company (Cinemark) will stay afloat long enough that a couple others collapse and we are finally able to breathe again. It seems to me like all the major companies are playing the game of who can stay alive the longest, but once 2 majors fail, the others will pick up those customers and will survive - that's my prediction, but I'm rambling now, so I'm going to end this post

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-16-2000, 02:12 AM:

Dustin, take Scott's advice and post the lamphouse make and model (bulb type if you know it) here on the forum. I'll bet someone has some xenons that are about to go into the trash they will send you.

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 08-16-2000, 02:34 AM:

I'll send some - I just got in a shipment of new bulbs, and I've got 4 that need changing now. They're Christie vertical mount 2500 watt bulbs (CXL-2500) for a CFS-Ren lamphouse. If by chance you can use em, let me know - we change out bulbs at warranty+25% - so they're at 2250 hours, better than 8000...

Posted by Oscar Neundorfer (Member # 458) on 08-16-2000, 06:00 AM:

Hey Dustin,

I don't know if you have any SMART equipment in your theater or not, but if you do, let me know if I can help with any problems. You can always call me at 1-800-457-6278 or e-mail at oscar@smartdev.com.

Call even if it is not about SMART equipment, and I will try to help you out if I can. I am sure most everyone else here will also jump in if they can help you.

Best regrads,

------------------
Oscar Neundorfer
Chief Engineer
SMART Devices, Inc.

oscar@smartdev.com

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-16-2000, 08:52 AM:

Hey Oscar, thanks a lot, I really appreciate it. To clarify things, we are off service with MTS EXCEPT for emergencies. Now what counts as an emergency I don't know, but I assume it is only when the film will no longer run. Anyhow, I still have contacts there who are willing to talk me through problems on the phone (good guys). Nonethless it is usefull to have all of you helping me out.

About the only real problem right now is a malfunctioning failsafe. I'll post the details later today, but as of right now the only way I can get the whole show to run through without shutting down multiple times is to use masking tape.

Posted by Wade Dupree (Member # 564) on 08-16-2000, 09:41 AM:

Dustin, I know the feeling. I work for Carmike too, we also opened In oct. 97...and YES we still have the Original Bulbs in about 4 or 5 of our 16..one of them is pushing **10,000** hours, geez!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-16-2000, 10:30 AM:

Pushing xenon lamps 5,000 to 10,000 hours

Is there a lesson to be learned here, that a policy of cutting corners on maintenance may go hand in hand with other poor management decisions?

Most xenon lamp manufacturers warn that the risk of lamp explosion increases dramatically as you push lamp life well beyond the warranteed hours. I hope you were at least provided all the necessary safety equipment and training for properly handling xenon lamps!

What was your measured screen luminance using these very old (and likely blackend) lamps?

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-16-2000, 11:02 AM:

No problem Dustin,
Feel free to e-mail or call me about any dilemma you may have. I used to install and service lots of theaters in Wisconsin a few years back and know ost of your equipment very well. I have never charged anyone for over the phone help. You can reach me at the numbers below.
Mark
801-485-5012
mark@getgts.com

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-16-2000, 11:51 AM:

John, the only safety equipment we have is face shields. I do not know how to change out lamps. There are two people here who do, one, who will be going off to school soon, is pretty good at it. The other, my manager, can but says he isn't very good at focusing them.

I think I have the failsafe problem fixed, without masking tape even .

Oh, the tools I have-
Screwdrivers
Alan wrenches
A few sockets
Very old, underpowered drill we use for winding up trailers. There's one bit laying around here somewhere for it.
3 MUT's
Splicers
1 Rewind Bench

That's it. No test equipment/film, nothing. Previously anything that I would've needed that kind of stuff for was MTS's responsibility.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-16-2000, 11:52 AM:

Phone help has always been free with us as well within reason
I would sujest getting your manager and yourself to make up a list of priorities of things that need doing and then budget accordingly

Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 08-16-2000, 11:55 AM:

Sounds like the S@#t has really hit the fan for Carmike. Life is going to get interesting for any Carmike projectionist that has now been put in charge of minor (and perhaps some major) maintenance if they don't already have the knowledge.

I hope all works out, and if I can be of any help (which is unlikely since I don't know your systems) I will gladly do so.

Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 08-16-2000, 12:34 PM:

Dustin and John,

A projectionist friend at the local multiplex says that they've used a 1000 Watt Xenon bulb well over 10 000 hours. Considering its age, the bulb wasn't particularly blackened, according to my friend.

Now, since I change the bulbs at my theatre every 1000 hours or so, I told hiom that he was nuts. Of course, my Xenon blubs are 4000 Watt each so I have to change them a bit more often, but I wouldn't even let them go past 1250 hours.

Posted by Peter Schulze (Member # 509) on 08-16-2000, 12:39 PM:

It's too bad all these chains went gung-ho and bought these multi-plexes, thinning out potential revenue for all the players. Now they're finding out they didn't have the market they assumed they would. Mike Spaeth's predictions seem right on the money. It may very well end up the survival of the fittest after this season's major slump. As long as the "victims" find jobs with the survivors. A good projectionist/technician is hard to find these days it seems to me.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-16-2000, 12:51 PM:

Dustin:

In addition to the full face (and neck) shield, you should protect your hands and wrists from shrapnel, and wear a "flak jacket" (or at least a heavy jacket) to protect your torso.

Try to get a copy of the Osram/Sylvania training video "Getting the Most From Your Xenon Lamps".

NASA has a neat web site, showing the precautions they take when they handle the xenon lamps they use for spotlights and solar simulators:
http://osat.grc.nasa.gov/GSM/GSM-26.htm

Posted by Lance C. McFetridge (Member # 95) on 08-16-2000, 02:25 PM:

Dustin,
I have an ORC xm2000-H/vc with 2100 hours on it I just changed out. Very small amount of blackening didn't flicker and it is yours if you want it. After having one pop, I just change them to be on the safe side when they get that old. E-mail me if interested
lance

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-16-2000, 03:37 PM:

Well, since I will be handling bulb stuff in the future, I decided it woudl be a good idea to check our inventory. Currently we have 4 spare bulbs-a 3000w, a 2000w, and 2 1600w. The two bulbs that need changing desperately have 5300 and 8000 hours on them. Both are still thowing out decent light. The 8000 hour one will be changed due to safety concerns. My qeustion is this-can I let the 5300 hour one go 2-3 hundred more hours? I don't know how long this bankruptcy thing is going to stretch out, I'd like to have at least one spare.

All this is assuming that when I call in the bulb I'm changing out that we don't get a new one to replace the spare I'll use. The reason I don't think I'll get one is that I was talking to someone at MTS (someone rather high up, not just a phone answerer) and they told me that right now they're holding 34 bulbs that Carmike wanted. Apparently Capitol City Supply and some place in Tennesse (can't remember name, only had to buy from them once) won't do business with Carmike anymore.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 08-16-2000, 04:10 PM:

One question on the lamp changing issue:

Should Dustin be even more careful in changing the 8000 hour lamp than normal? Does the quartz get more brittle with age?

I changed a 1600 watter in an ORC lamphouse the first time by myself (years ago) and NOBODY THERE even mentioned that I needed to use any precautions. After hearing of some of these horror stories here, I am lucky that I did not get a face full of quartz. I did have the protective shield for the NEW lamp, but at the time I thought it was so that nothing would get all over the lamp during the changeout.

I'm no Rock Hudson (an old '50's actor that was considered to be fairly good looking) but I want to keep the puss that I have as quartz-free as possible.

Since then, I have only changed the 350 watt lamps in my Eiki 16mm toys. I treat them with kidd gloves too.

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 08-16-2000, 04:14 PM:

Not only protective gear a really, really, really good idea, but dosen't OSHA require it to be available as well?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-16-2000, 04:16 PM:

Monitor the lamp closely
The symptoms of a lamp that is reached the maximum end of it life span (from old ushio manual)
1 excessive blackening
2 poor light output
3 draws excessive uncontrolled current
4 hard to strike or goes out repetadly after ignition
5 Flickers or arc wanders
6 Goes out in standbye mode repeatedly (probably not applicable to you)

Do you have glass mirrors as they will be destroyed by a explosion compared to much reduced light from a banged up metal one
remember the cost of the reflector is several times higher than the cost of most lamps

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 08-16-2000, 04:22 PM:

I would certainly advise to use the full protection gear as mentioned ie, Gloves,Face Sheild, Jacket to change these Xenon Lamps, they would be quite brittle, apart from certain injury if they explode and will damage the lamphouse mirror, perhaps beyond repair.

Are these Xenons made by ORC?

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-16-2000, 04:49 PM:

The 8000 hour one that is original is in a Christis lamphouse, so is a Christie bulb. The 5300 hour one is an Osram, as are all of our replacements.

Posted by Bob Minge (Member # 574) on 08-16-2000, 07:44 PM:

When it takes 2 or 3 strikes to start it, should you be looking at replacing it?

------------------
Bob Minge
Manager/Projectionist
Westridge Cinema 5
Fergus Falls, MN

Posted by Aaron Flack (Member # 517) on 08-16-2000, 11:37 PM:

I work for Carmike also here in Tennessee. I learned that Capitol City Supply quit serving Carmike weeks before the bankruptcy. But the people at my theater said Carmike owned Capitol City. We do have spare lamps, but we're in desperate need of booth supplies like lydar tape and splicer parts. I have to work with all this worn out junk because my manager's so reluctant to order simple necessary supplies.

BTW, the focus lens for our largest theater suddenly fogged up a bit and people keep complaining about the contrast(which there is none) and demand refunds. We may end up having to buy a whole new lens, which would cost over a thousand dollars right? FYI, that theater uses a Magna-Com flat lens, which I think is Schneider, and the light entrance is 1". I'm not sure, but I know the lens is probably at least 15 years old or so.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-16-2000, 11:42 PM:

He's so reluctant to order parts because he won't get them. Tell him to try, but not to hold his breath.

Luckily for me, we stockpiled splicing tape, I have enough to last me the next 50 years.

Posted by Rudy Bergman (Member # 576) on 08-17-2000, 01:35 AM:

just remember... xenon bulbs dont burn-out, they just explode.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-17-2000, 02:15 AM:

Aaron, if your theater has to buy a new lens, at least make sure to order the CORRECT lens and toss that Magnacom light sponge.

There is a lens calculator program on the manuals download page that is quite easy to calculate the lens size you need. Also, there are tons of used lenses around in excellent condition cheap.

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 08-18-2000, 02:34 AM:

quote:
NASA has a neat web site, showing the precautions they take when they handle the xenon lamps

There's a photograph of a NASA tech showing NASA's proper protective gear for changing Xenon bulbs:

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-18-2000, 09:29 AM:

Great photo! Sometimes, wearing the protective equipment feels as cumbersome as depicted, but you'll be glad you did if a lamp ever explodes with the lamphouse door open.

Posted by Rory Burke (Member # 512) on 08-18-2000, 11:49 AM:

John P. is right. Unless you see the damage (aftermath) of an exploded bulb then one is trully convinced to head to the wear the saftey equipment route. It took me two hours to clean out all the tiny little particles of glass (dust like-not good to breathe in directly) out of the lamp house. I didnt want little bits of glass flying around punturing my new bulb. The reflector?........well needless to say that if your face was in there at the time it blew i dont think you'd be around at all. the reflector looked like aircraft skin damage in desert storm. Spotted, dinged, scarred, scratched, etc etc.

BULB SAFETY IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST OVERLOOKED ASPECTS OF OUR JOBS.

OSHA should look into allowing $5.00 an hour candy kids to be messing around with equipment as dangerous as a projector CAN be. At least it is a good argument (always) to demand more money. Imagine going to the General manager with that NASA document in your hands demanding more money to run his booth. It might work!

RORY

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 08-18-2000, 12:53 PM:

Well, bulb changed. Wasn't that blackened actually. Scary thing though, the guy who was changing it had no concept of safety. He wore nothing, not even a face shield!! Aparantly he thinks bulbs are more dangerous out of the box than they are after they've been in the lamphouse for several thousand hours. I don't know where he got that idea, but I can't convince him otherwise and have given up trying. Like I said, he's going off to the Seminary soon anyway.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-18-2000, 03:47 PM:

Next time someone has a nice bulb explosion and a camera nearby, try and get a picture for us to post here to demonstrate visually why people should wear their protective gear. Hopefully it will also get the seriousness of it across to any newbie who doesn't have the proper training just yet to wait for a tech to show him/her the right and SAFE way to do it.

Posted by Rory Burke (Member # 512) on 08-18-2000, 04:06 PM:

Ill send over a picture of a reflector still in use after two 4k ORC(why ORC's???? new thread?) bulbs blew up months apart. No problems with OSRAMS ever!!!! Boy it hurts just thinking about it. Take me bout a week though.
Rory

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-26-2000, 03:38 PM:

I had a lamp explode last month - the first time it happened to me in 9 years as a projectionist.

I was removing it because of a badly-pitted anode (and resulting flicker) after 2,750 hours and 90 degree rotations at 500-hour intervals.

I had removed the lamp and was in the process of inserting it into the plastic container when it suddenly blew up. The lamp was totally cold at the time, having been left to cool overnight.

The explosion sent quartz fragments flying all over the box: the pock-marks on my gloves and protective leather jacket and and the scratches on the visor of my helmet indicate that I would probably not be writing this message if I hadn't been wearing them.

And that was from a COLD lamp...

Helmet, jacket and gloves should be the BARE MINIMUM anyone should be wearing before opening up a lamphouse. If your theatre doesn't provide them, tell your manager that you are not touching any lamps until a set of protective gear is on site.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-26-2000, 03:49 PM:

Just out of curiosity, you didn't hold the bulb horizontally with one hand while using the other hand to open up the plastic container or whatever, did you? The weight of the bulb being supported by one end in the situation described above is a fairly common cause of explosion during faulty handling.

Still you are most certainly correct, wear your safety gear! I'm glad you were wearing yours.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-27-2000, 10:21 AM:

I wasn't lifting the lamp vertically by the anode end at the time of the explosion, although I had done for a few seconds previously.

The Shittymecannica lamphouses we have do not have a large enough hole in the middle of the mirror to be able to insert the tube into the lamp, engage the flanges in situ and unscrew. Therefore I did have to hold the lamp by the anode end briefly as I took it out of the lamphouse.

I then immediately took the cathode end with my other hand, put the lamp down on a chair cushion (it was about to be disposed of, so contaminating the surface of the bulb didn't matter) and was sliding it into the tube when it blew. One of the flanges caught on the side of the tube, and I was trying to free it when it went bang.

Maybe the 10 seconds or so of unsupported lifting weakened a seal, but my gut feeling was that it was a duff lamp to start with. We normally get 3-4,000 hours out of the bulbs here before they develop a flicker, but this one had done so at well under 3k hours. The cathode end was also notably scorched.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-28-2000, 09:07 AM:

Leo:
The "notably scorched" cathode end may be a clue to why the lamp exploded with little provocation. A poor electrical connection there may have abnormally heated the cathode connection, weakening the seal.

Congratulations on wearing the proper protective gear! I'm sure the face shield saved your eyesight! Since quartz shrapnel is hard to find on an x-ray, your gloves and jacket saved a lifetime of agony.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-28-2000, 02:50 PM:

A faulty connection within the bulb certainly makes sense. Its replacement has so far done 1,250 hours (and two rotations), with no sign of any scorching or pitting whatsoever as yet.

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 08-29-2000, 09:20 PM:

I had a bulb blow up on me earlier this year during a change-out. Like an ASS, I wasn't wearing the available safty gear. If it wasn't for my glasses, doctors would have been digging glass out of my eyes for sure. This taught me a lesson! You can read about my experiences with this on an earlier post entitled "Use Your Safety Gear", originally posted on 2-5-2000, and last updated on 2-9-2000.