Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 70mm showing with 6 track SR, keep it alive

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Posted by timothy johnson (Member # 83) on 08-27-2000, 02:07 PM:

You just gotta love good old 70mm, once again we all lament the old days of epics shown the RIGHT WAY.
if anyone is here in Minneapolis this week August 25 - 31 we are showing "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" in 70mm 6track SR, we "The Heights Theater" are the only movie theater with 70mm showings and pre show organ. The print is stunning, rich colors and sharp blow up. When we called Paramount to book it, the print was sitting here in our ETS Minneapolis, not run since it showed at the General Cinema back in 1989, excellent print.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 08-27-2000, 02:32 PM:

That's great; try to show 70mm stuff as much as you can to keep the interest up.

Unfortunately, I've pretty much lost the battle at my theater; one of our eight screens had a V8 (the other seven are Simplexes), but V8 parts are a bit expensive, it was harder to teach the ushers to run the booth (teaching them two different projectors) and there's just no first-run 70mm product.

So, after a problem with the intermittent, the "powers that be" decided to get rid of the V8 rather than fix it. We just opened a new theater in Maryland, and had a few Simplexes left over from the older theater we closed; so we will use one of those- 35mm only. I couldn't talk them out of it, and while I don't totally agree with their reasoning, I really have see their point.

Management's points were; Our screen is too small to make a difference (we've talked about this fallacy before, so I won't repeat why it's a stupid reason)

-They are afraid to let an usher destroy a $20,000 (of course, management has painted themselves into a corner by killing off the projectionist profession, but it is a real reason)

There has simply been too few features avaiable in the last 10 years, and none have been announced in the future, so why maintain something that will probably not be used? That's the biggest arguement I have no answer for.

I came in, and the ushers were genuinely excited, saying; "They got rid of that "bad" projector; isn't that great?"

Ho-hum.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-27-2000, 02:42 PM:

"They got rid of that "bad projector; isn't that great?"
Boy I could find them some BAD projectors if I had to put up with kids like that in a hurry
Superiors on universal bases anyone ha ha

Posted by timothy johnson (Member # 83) on 08-27-2000, 02:49 PM:

I forgot to add, the 2 shows Friday night, people aplauded at the end of the movie, and they all were buzzing about the stunning picture and sound, and they were not all film buffs, as a matter of fact, kids that were not even born yet came to see it. We have a piece of 70mm film in the lobby at the concession stand, eveyone marvels at the mag stripe and frame size. By the way we are running this on a AAII with 2000 watts.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-27-2000, 07:19 PM:

When are you going to post the pictures?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-28-2000, 09:34 AM:

Timothy:

Congratulations! Glad to hear of your success in running 70mm. Not surprised that a 1989 print still can look and sound that good. Most prints since 1982 should be in pretty good shape, unless they were abused or damaged by theatres, or stored improperly. Be interesting to know what other gems reside on the racks of ETS and TES.

Over on the rec.arts.movies.tech Newsgroup, there has been alot of recent discussion about whether bringing back 70mm "classics" like "Ben Hur", "The Sound of Music", etc. would be a money-maker. Bob Harris (who restored films like "Lawrence of Arabia", "My Fair Lady", "Spartacus" and "Vertigo" for 70mm re-release) makes a good case that spending a few million dollars to restore a movie like "Ben Hur" and have 70mm prints available would be a wise investment. He has actually issued a "challenge" to distributors. I know that I seek out "The Splendor of 70mm" whenever I travel, and long for the heyday of 70mm in smaller cities like Buffalo and Rochester.

I hope you post your theatre's good experience on r.a.m.t to let others know it can be successful, and that audiences DO notice the difference.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 08-29-2000, 04:00 AM:

Bring on the resto's.

I have seen the films in 70mm as John mentions above, plus many others that still reside in 70mm here in Australia.

I would really like to see a full restoration of "It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" in fabolous Ultra Panavision. My spools of this film are now unrunable due to good old VS.

This is one of my favorites and in Australia it immediately followed 3-strip Cinerama (West Was Won) into the Cinerama theatres.

Are any other 70mm restorations currently under way or about to commence?

David

Posted by timothy johnson (Member # 83) on 08-29-2000, 09:54 AM:

I don't know of any restorations, I heard a rumor that there will be a few 70mm prints of 2001 with the upcoming major re-release of 2001 in december, can anyone confirm that?
They really should do EL CID and Sound of Music in 70mm DTS

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-29-2000, 10:01 AM:

Sound of music sould be 70mm mag only as it has one of the few full use of the TODD AO screen speaker arrangement out there

Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 08-29-2000, 11:19 AM:

Speaking of 6-track mag. Where can I find a 6-track mag head? I have tried contacting a couple of people, none of whom have been able to find one yet. Anyone know where I might be able to get one. I also need a mounting bracket for a Simplex SR 3570 Mag Penthouse.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-29-2000, 12:45 PM:

There is a company in CA called electro mag and they will make it
A lot of dealers still have heads sitting on the shelf and also a lot of good used ones
Is the bracket in place in your penthouse and need just the head cluster or the whole assembly

Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 08-29-2000, 03:37 PM:

No, I need the bracket as well. Do you have an email, phone or URL for elecro mag?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-29-2000, 04:14 PM:

http://www.electromag.com/mp.html

Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 08-30-2000, 02:54 PM:

Tomorrow, I'll be screening a twelve-minute Norwegian 70mm short film, "Året gjennom Borefjord", for a couple of higher-up management people at my theatre. The film was actually shot in 70mm and took about three years to make.

The management people were supposed to have this conference at our theatre so my boss asked me if I knew a good SRD film to impress the hell out of these people. Better yet, I told him, I know this 70mm short that's going to blow their brains out, it's so good.

What's 70mm, he asked.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-31-2000, 05:50 AM:

Ari Nordström said: "The management people were supposed to have this conference at our theatre so my boss asked me if I knew a good SRD film to impress the hell out of these people. Better yet, I told him, I know this 70mm short that's going to blow their brains out, it's so good. What's 70mm, he asked".

Anyone who has experienced "The Splendor of 70mm" doesn't have to ask "What's 70mm?". The quality jumps off a large screen, making an immersive and memorable experience. If you have 70mm capability, ask your management and bookers to try to get prints to "keep the flame alive" and introduce a new generation to the big screen quality only 70mm can deliver. Old 70mm prints vary greatly in quality, depending upon how they were used and stored. Some are damaged, faded or smell of vinegar (magnetic striping made triacetate prints more prone to "vinegar syndrome"). Others are as good as new. The only way to get new prints is to keep asking for them, and actively promote the showings to get the business they deserve.

Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 08-31-2000, 07:58 AM:

He had never experienced 70mm, that much was obvious, but I was only too happy to educate him in this matter.

The show went extremely well. I overheard severals wow's and words like "magnificent" and "overwhelming" when the management people left the auditorium. These people are going to talk about 70mm for the next few days, I can tell.

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 09-01-2000, 02:43 AM:

My god the thought of letting an usher run a 70mm print on any projector is enough to send me off in search of Guinness!
There are enough so called projectionists out there who are able to wreck a 70mm print without the assistance of front of house.

A few years ago the so called chief at a brand new multiplex in the north of England managed to destroy a 70mm copy of one of the Batman movies on the opening day by forgetting to change the pad rollers from 35 to 70. Lovely parallel lines of emulsion scratches all the way through.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-01-2000, 05:08 AM:

So John, do you think we will ever get to see 70mm again on release prints? (Not only on re-issues).

I never thought I would have to be asking that particular question... how sad.

We still have a 70mm of Raiders Of The Lost Ark around here but she's pretty faded now. The 70mm of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is still in great shape and colour (lpp). Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade had only one 70mm screening here and that was the premiere. Following that the print left the country. Crazy.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-01-2000, 06:04 AM:

Anyone who really understands projection technology (hopefully all of us who participate in the Film Handlers Forum

) knows that "size DOES matter" when it comes to image quality on big screens. I hope we use every opportunity to show others the quality that 70 mm clearly offers. Maintain and upgrade (e.g., DTS reader) your 70 mm capability. Make sure your projectionists are competent in handling and showing 70 mm prints. If you are fortunate enough to get a print, treat it with TLC, and actively PROMOTE its presentation to get the audience it deserves. Never let up in requesting 70 mm print availability -- distributors are not going to spend the extra money for 70 mm prints unless theatres demand them and can show that they will be a "win-win" for both distributor and exhibitor.

Check out the many recent posts on the "Bring Back 70 mm!" thread on the rec.arts.movies.tech Newsgroup. If we can spread that enthusiasm for 70 mm to the "suits" (many of whom may not even understand what 70 mm is), "The Spendor of 70 mm" may live again in thousands of theatres.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-01-2000, 09:11 AM:

Dick Ushers running 70 sends you off for Guiness. I noticed you commented about Guiniess on 1570 so I will repeat there is never to much guiness.

Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 09-01-2000, 10:30 AM:

I got a quote from a local dealer today about a 6-track 70mm mag head. It's almost $1300 for the head and the mounting bracket, is that a good price? I have no idea what a mag head should cost, so I thought I would ask.

Gordon, electromag only seems to make 16mm and 35mm mag heads. If I contact them do they also make 70mm heads?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-01-2000, 09:03 PM:

Electromag I believe will oem anything
They used to make replacements for Ampex at one time
That is a pretty good price

Posted by David Miller (Member # 412) on 09-05-2000, 08:48 AM:

Speaking of keeping 70mm alive we have started running mid-night shows at the Cinerama in Seattle. We are specifically asking for 70mm prints when we can, since seeing 70mm prints at the Cinerama brings out the crowds. Even if it is a bad movie.

Two weeks ago we ran a print of "Terminator 2" and did alright with it. The left channel of the Mag track was bad and required me to turn the amps off behind the screen. (Something you could only get away with at the Cinerama, there are so many speakers and such rich sound that it was barely noticable.) The print had a slight smell of vinegar, but the color was beautiful and it looked great on the 68 foot screen.

This was the first full lenght 70 print we have run on our Kinoton FP-75E. The change out of the projector parts took about five minutes, which is one of the coolest features of that machine. Everything ran beautiful....A nice steady picture, lots of light, and good sound out of the Mag head.

This coming weekend we are showing a 70 print of the original Alien. Anyone in the Seattle area should stop by. The Indiana Jones Trilogy, Ghostbusters, and the Abyss are on the horizon.

------------------
David Miller
millerdk@plu.edu
Projectionist, Seattle Cinerama

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-05-2000, 10:51 AM:

The Seattle Cinerama Theatre certainly is PROMOTING the advantages of 70 mm to get the audience it truly deserves. Good job!!!

I hope that the 70 mm prints you are able to get are all in "like new" condition. Any prints on Kodak film made after about 1982 should have minimal fading, so physical wear and magnetic track deterioration are the only likely issues with prints from the 80's and 90's. Unfortunately, magnetic striping (solvents/iron) can aggravate vinegar syndrome on cellulose triacetate prints that were not stored properly (cool, dry, and vented/with Molecular Sieves).

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-05-2000, 12:41 PM:

F.Y.I. You will not be pleased with the one print of Alien available. It is badly faded and loaded with splices. Also, there are no remaining 70mm prints of The Abyss at the depot. Ghostbusters looks like an 8mm blow up. Raiders is faded with tons of splices and will need serious hf correction on the audio. I do not believe there is a print of "Temple of Doom" left in 70mm.

Old beaten up and faded 70mm prints tend to give the audience the wrong idea about 70mm is you ask me. It's ashamed, but the studios never seemed to care about their 70mm prints.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-05-2000, 06:31 PM:

For the Raider prints contact Paramounts Toronto's office there is one 70mm print of each stored in Toronto
Colours fadeing but last time we ran it they were okay

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-06-2000, 01:58 AM:

You're gonna pay amounts you've never imagined in your worst nightmare if you have to have that print shipped in from Canada.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-06-2000, 07:14 AM:

It isn't that expensive we ship in from the US all the time usually we use Emmery Forwarding or Air Cargo

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-06-2000, 07:23 AM:

Does anyone know how customs duty is assessed in shipping prints between the USA and Canada, and vice-versa? How has the North American Free Trade Act (NAFTA) affected this? Obviously, many prints come to the USA from Deluxe Toronto and Covitec Montreal, and the Hollywood labs ship prints to Canada.

I would assume if you tell Paramount there is a good 70mm print in Toronto, it would be up to them to arrange to get the print to Seattle, and then back to Toronto.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-06-2000, 07:06 PM:

The theatre is responible for all shipping costs. Your broker is usually more expensive than the shipping costs are
There is no duty on a 70mm prints returning to the US (since there is no canadian lab printing 70mm ((the home of IMAX no LESS(((shame on them)))))
There is duty when the print comes back to Canada afterwards and if we wont it at Ont.Place later and get told it didn't come back from the US due to import problems we will just have to get Arnold S. (aka John P in superhereo costume) to deal with the offending theatre appropriately

We have experienced this problem many times as until recently 70mm prints are well cared for as very few theatres could run them and many of those that could had "real projectionists".

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 09-06-2000, 11:17 PM:

well, bad news in the efforts for myself to get 70mm capability in a new install...

Got the official word today that I am going to be installing Simplex XLs rather than the three Norelco AAIIs I was drooling over... Worse yet, is that the back two auditoria (its a stadium triplexing of a large single) are going to have CFS consoles (yuck) at least the big theatre will have a 4K Strong Super-80 behind it rather than a CFS console...

Aaron

Posted by Bill Carter (Member # 156) on 09-07-2000, 02:06 PM:

"Terminator 2" begins a 70mm run this Friday at the Heights Theater in Minneapolis. "Last Crusade" has been a big hit in 70!

Posted by David Miller (Member # 412) on 09-07-2000, 03:17 PM:

The Cinerama just ran the 70mm print of Terminator 2 a couple of weeks ago. Like I said there was a slight smell of vinegar, but the color was in great shape. The left channel on the mag track is pretty messed up. I ended up turning the amps off for the left channel to eliminate the static and popping which was very bad. The print has quite a few splices and there are three obvious spots where there are scenes missing. I don't know how many 70 prints there are of this.....Maybe you will get a different print that we got, but just in case hope this helps.

------------------
David Miller
millerdk@plu.edu
Projectionist, Seattle Cinerama

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-07-2000, 03:44 PM:

There are 5 magnetic and 1 CDS print of Terminator 2 in 70mm.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-08-2000, 12:49 AM:

Great! Can I have one?

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 09-13-2000, 02:12 AM:

Does anyone know of any theatres that still have CDS readers fitted to their projectors?

I think that one theatre in Thurrock(UK) has one just interested if there are others .

At some point we want to get hold of one for the Museum collection as example of first digital sytem technology.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-13-2000, 03:20 AM:

I've got a CDS system in my screening room, but I don't know of any commercial theater that has one.

Someone told me there is a dealer on the west coast that has one still in the box that was never sold. Might want to check that out.

Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 09-13-2000, 09:49 AM:

You have a CDS system, and it still works? Wow, did you add any ventilation or fans? I heard that all of them in the field when T2 came out fried after a few weeks. I wasn't around (working) back then so I don't know first hand, but a friend of mine told me they were terribly unstable.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-13-2000, 10:29 AM:

There is some

information about the ill-fated Cinema Digital Sound (CDS) system on-line:
http://members.aol.com/cds3570/
http://www.moviesoundpage.com/msp_cds.htm

Kodak was very involved in proving the design concept of being able to print the CDS digital soundtrack on the film, and in marketing the system and implementing it in the film laboratories. But the hardware design was not Kodak's. The decision to put the 35mm CDS track in the analog soundtrack area to minimize wear from the projector was the right one technically, but the lack of an analog back-up track doomed the system when there were hardware problems.

Give CDS credit for starting the "digital sound revolution" with a bits-on-film system that worked very well, except when the hardware overheated. Without this pioneering effort, the move to digital sound would have taken alot longer.