This is topic Indie films = bad prints? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001399
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-08-2000, 05:24 AM:
Just finished screening Way of the Gun tonight from Artisan pictures. Anyone else get a print that was covered in negative dirt? In addition to that, the ends of the reels had horrible negative cinch mark scratches! Of course, just to make damn sure the print wouldn't hit the screen looking pristine, 2 of the reels came in tails out with HORRIBLE greasy fingerprints all over the tails (including the last 10 seconds of the picture) coupled with physical print mishandling scratches (yes this was a brand new print). Add to that the reels TES mounted my print on (literally they absolutely HAD to have been stored within a mountain of dirt) and every damn one of them was broken...it made for a very disppointing presentation. How pathetic is this? I'm curious as to if this is due to possibly a smaller company like Artisan not having the funds to strike multiple internegatives (which I doubt) or why the indie films always seem to have prints made from worn down negatives. Also does TES feel they can stick all of their beat up reels into the "indie guy's" cans thinking that the company isn't big enough to matter about their quality? Any input on all of this?
(My print was from Deluxe Toronto, which normally turns out nice prints.)
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-08-2000, 06:30 AM:
Could be that there was a problem with the handling of the negative by the negative cutter. If only a few prints are being made, the distributor may decide to make all prints from the cut negative, putting it at more risk for damage, rather than paying for a duplicate negative. The labs generally give the same quality care and attention to all productions, regardless of whether it is a major or indie. But lower budget features may not be using Kodak film.------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-08-2000, 12:34 PM:
The print was on Fuji, but I've had plenty of Fuji prints that look magnificent, so I don't see how that would be a specific cause. This was clearly negative damage and it was throughout. This only happens on smaller films. I'd love to know how everyone else's prints are.
Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-08-2000, 12:57 PM:
I haven't seen my print of Way of the Gun yet (though no problems were reported), however, my print of Watcher was as abd as you described (minus the fingerprints).
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-08-2000, 01:47 PM:
Hmm...interesting to see that you're seeing lots of problems with smaller films. Are you sure that these are lab-new prints and not ones that were run for press screenings and such?
I've shown many "limited-release" films (which I would define as under 100-200 prints). In general, I've been happier with the lab quality on these films than with most "big" (1000+ prints) titles. They are usually printed at better labs (Deluxe Toronto, Foto-Kem, etc.) than the major releases and seem to be printed at slower speeds (or something like that) with better steadiness and contrast. I can't think of anything offhand that I've run that was printed straight off the original negative (with hand-scratched cue marks), though.
Note that I'm talking about "new" films. Limited-release reissues of older titles are often done by oddball distributors that don't have the time, money, or interest to make quality prints. The "Truffault Festival" prints released by WinStar (who's that?) and "The Graduate" prints released by Strand are some examples of prints with major timing and image-quality problems. On the other hand, most of the new prints struck for the WB 75th fest were terrific...the problem seems to be mostly with smaller distributors that own the rights to particular films for limited periods of time and thus don't have a vested interest in the long-term survival of quality film elements.
My one complaint about many limited-release prints is that foreign films often have those burned-in laser subtitles that don't focus on the same plane as the picture. It seems that this technology has been improving lately, but still isn't very good.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-08-2000, 02:17 PM:
I've never had that much trouble with the laser titles. I was using an older Simplex at the time.You are right though, there IS a diffeence between the focus of the titles and the focus of the picture albeit slight. The projector I was using seemed to have the ability to focus 1/2 way between the titles and picure and still get a good image. It seemed like the titles were floating just a little bit off the screen. They are a damn sight better than those other ones that you can never read 'cus they are always superimposed over something really light!
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-08-2000, 03:26 PM:
The problem with laser subtitles is that they are burnt into the base side, not the emulsion. So you can focus the picture, or the s/ts, but not both.Whilst I have never come across prints of with as much negative damage as Brad encountered (apart from archival prints derived from elements which were not preserved as well as they might have been), indie, art and rep release prints do, in my experience, present problems which you tend not to encounter with mainstream titles.
Firstly, a far smaller number of prints tend to get made of these titles. These prints are transported more during their lifetime, and lower proportion of showings for every time they get made up and packed off. A film like 'Gladiator' might run four times a day for three weeks in a typical venue. By way of comparison, we're showing 'La Veuve de Saint-Pierre' twice a day for one week. Often, we get these sorts of films on three-day bookings or even one-off weekend matinees.
So point one, these prints are used in a way that involves more handling, and consequently more intensive wear and tear during their lifetimes, and more opportunity for bad handling. Point two is that a lot of the venues that show art and rep are those which do not have ideal equipment, properly maintained, and whose projection staff do not have the film handling skills needed to take the best care of these prints. I'm talking student film societies, or state-funded arts centres that show films maybe one evening per week.
You can't stop supplying prints to these places on the grounds that their print handling is lousy, because they represent a significant source of income for distributors of art/rep/indie titles. In fact, probably most of their income. But on the other hand, they are making other cinemas (and audiences) suffer by the way they treat the films in their care. Said print of 'La Veuve' has a horrible emulsion tramline from start to end, is as dirty as hell, full of cinch marks, has lots of edge damage and the SR-D drops in and out all the way through.
Hardly surprising, then, that there have now been several editorials in 'Sight and Sound' (a semi-academic British film magazine aimed mainly at arthouse fans) enthusing about DLP and saying how wonderful the prospect is of nailing down the coffins of all those crappy projectionists.
It's a real Catch 22. On the evidence of where films tend to come to us on crossover and in what state they arrive, I believe that there are about 10 venues in the UK which between them are responsible for 90% of the print mangling. They probably wouldn't be if they had the money to send their projectionist on a one-day course, invest in running spools that weren't bent, buy a proper rewind table or whatever. Nevertheless, if you closed these venues down now, the quality of art and rep prints circulating in this country would improve beyond recognition - I'd put money on that.
The only thing I can do is to request a new print every time I get a substandard one, knowing full well that in nine cases out of ten the distributor won't have a replacement. But if the message gets through that the venues which care aren't willing to put up with knackered prints without making a fuss, maybe constructive pressure can be applied on the places that are causing the problems.
Posted by Stan Gunn (Member # 554) on 09-08-2000, 06:50 PM:
I have never seen laser sub titles done on th base side. Cant see much point in that,as the image would cover the titles and make them unreadable. 
------------------
PROJECTIONISTS LOVE THIER CRAFT.
KANDY BAR KIDS JUST GET PAID.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-08-2000, 06:50 PM:
To clear things up, yes this was a brand new print and no it had never been ran before. On Deluxe prints it is very easy to tell. For starters, the wind was perfect. Second, 5 of 7 reels were heads out and 2 were tails out. Deluxe always puts a piece of tape on the backside of the title so the reel can be easily identified. What are the odds someone would've returned each reel after screening it to it's original winding, including all being emulsion out? I'm positive it was a lab new print.
Posted by Tom Ferreira (Member # 70) on 09-08-2000, 09:24 PM:
Box Office Guru says that Artisan broke Way Of The Gun with over 1500 prints-hardly a limited release. Luckily, I'm not playing it.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-08-2000, 11:16 PM:
Perhaps they were all struck from the same negative and I got one of the last ones printed.
Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-09-2000, 02:51 AM:
1500 prints? Judging by todays numbers at my theatre, thats about 1000 prints too many...
Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 09-09-2000, 08:04 AM:
The print of The Way Of The Gun that I assembled and screened left something to be desired. A few broken reels, a few reels with misaligned cores, three reels tails out, and random spots showing up on-screen. 
*grumbles something mostly incoherent, and very impolite about technicolor*
Something weird I noticed on the print of The Watcher that I assembled & ran, the image seemed to randomly go out of focus and snap back in focus rather often. And it didn't even seem to be some quirky thing done for 'dramatic effect' either.
And NO, there was not anyone up in the booth messing with the focus knob at the time! The booth was empty, the building was empty aside from the five of us watching the screening. Though, I keep saying that the booth is haunted...and the disturbances all happen at the end where projectors 8-10 are...and The Watcher was on #8..... 
~GLB
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-09-2000, 12:40 PM:
Most of the subtitled prints released here are done by LVT (Paris) or Titra (Brussels)-and the characters are burnt into the base.As for GLB's focus problem, I had the same thing with an GK-37 a few years back. I tried everything I could think of until, out of desparation, I swapped the gate plate with one from another machine - and swapped the problem with it. I guess the plate must have worn unevenly, with the result that the film wouldn't sit properly in the gate.