This is topic argh! mysterious digital problem... in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 09-11-2000, 03:00 AM:
 
...'Any help here would be hot'...

I'll be the first one to say that I am a projectionist, not a projector technician. However, I do try to deal with problems myself before freaking out and calling a tech. (After all, why bother them for something minor that I can handle on my own?) I'm fairly sure that I will have to call a tech for this one, I just want to see if there is anything else I could have checked and/or done before making that call. My SRD is not working.
The Digital Soundhead is a Cat. No. 700, and the SRD digital film sound processor is a Model DA20.
I'm not sure if the problem is with the reader or with the processor. But on the soundrack where a number (or sometimes an 'F') is displayed while a film is running in SRD, instead there is simply a '-'. Short, flat line.
I've already checked for blown fuses and loose wiring. All was fine.
The bulb in the soundhead is working fine, not burnt out.
All appropriate lenses are clean, and everything ought to be properly aligned (being at least a good 5.5 feet off the floor, directly over a beastly Century JJ2STA projector head, keeps things well out of harm's way as far as getting 'bumped' and misaligned!)

Mind you, I have no test loops, or hardly anything else in the way of equipment for running tests. And too, my knowledge of electronics is minimal.

I appreciate any advice that will get tossed this way.

~Gracia

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In some cultures, what I do is considered normal.
 


Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-11-2000, 04:20 AM:
 
Gracia

In these days where everything has an SRD track on it perhaps this one does not.

Is this the same on all prints and trailers or just one title?



 


Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 09-11-2000, 06:32 AM:
 
A line like that indicates that there is NO SRD data on that reel. Like John said, it is probably the whole print.

Which print is it?
 


Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-11-2000, 07:52 AM:
 
Dumb question is the reader cable plugged in at both ends make sure the power is off when testing I have seen them come loose
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-11-2000, 08:03 AM:
 
Gracia --- just look at the print to see if there is a Dolby Digital track. Under a magnifying glass, you should be able to see the Dolby "Double D" logo printed in the center of each good data block between the perfs on the side of the film adjacent to the analog track.

The Dolby Digital, SDDS and analog/DTS time code tracks all have separate light sources on the printer, so one can fail even on "quad" format prints.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
 


Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 09-11-2000, 10:48 AM:
 
JP makes a good point; We had a print that had a grey shaded area in between the sprocket hole, yet the DD reader was just showing a "-".
Turns out that it was not a digital track- it was just grey shaded squares. Why they would do such a thing I don't know (maybe they just like to watch projectionists squirm!) So look close.
 
Posted by Neil Di Scala (Member # 592) on 09-11-2000, 11:00 AM:
 
The cable in the back of the 700 can work itself loose, there is no lock on the plug. Unscrew the back plate and take a look. I have had this happen. When you put the cable clamp back on, wrap something around it for strain relief.
 
Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 09-11-2000, 01:12 PM:
 
To Gordon and Neil - thanks for the heads up, I'll check that cable.

To all you other wise-guys, yes, the prints that I have run on the machine do have the SRD track! I know to look for Dolby's 'double d' logo in the gray shaded areas, and I can see it just fine without a magnifying glass!
Highlander: Endgame and The Way Of The Gun have both run on that machine. And Endgame was running in digital for a few days before the digital went the way of the dodo!
I may be a lot of things, but I am not silly enough to run a print without an SRD track on my machine with the SRD reader and expect to get digital sound!

~Gracia

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In some cultures, what I do is considered normal.
 


Posted by Greg Pauley (Member # 503) on 09-11-2000, 01:37 PM:
 
Gracia:
You might want to try moving a known working SRD print into the booth and test run the print prior/after hours. This will tell you if the problem is with the print or equipment. You didn't answer the question about if your trailers were reading SRD or not? I would elimate the print as the problem before spending alot of time on the equipment side. Good Luck!


 


Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-11-2000, 02:23 PM:
 
Gracia -- We did not question your abilities, just your eyesight. We "old fogies" need to use a magnifier (or at least our reading glasses) to see the Dolby "double D" and verify the print has Dolby Digital printed. As John Walsh noted, he has seen prints with only a data-less gray printed that gave the "-" indication you got. Oh, to be young again!

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
 


Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-11-2000, 04:01 PM:
 
The fact that you sometimes get an 'F' (for 'fail') on the DA-20 display means that the Cat 700 is definitely picking up some data and passing it to the DA-20, but that the DA-20 cannot convert it into analogue waveforms, because that data is in some way corrupted. If there were no SR-D data on the print, then you would just get the '-', never an 'F'. The fact that you are getting an 'F' means that data is being sent at least some of the time, which pretty much rules out the connectors or cable. I suppose there's just a small chance of an intermittent break in the connection, but would doubt it.

If you have tried another print which you know to be OK without success, then all I can think of is the following:

1. Exciter bulb on the way out. I know you said it's not blown but the light from halogen lamps gradually deteriorates during their lifetime. Just as you have to keep resetting the gain on an SR analogue (incandescent) exciter over the course of its lifetime to compensate for the reduction in light output, the same problem with digital will show itself as a gradually increasing error rate. Has the error rate gradually been getting worse on that reader over the last few days or weeks? If so try changing the lamp. If it's been in for over a year, then personally I'd change it anyway.

2. Optics (exciter and/or CCD) dirty. I know you said they were clean but there's nothing to lose by trying the following. Take a compressed air spray, pointing the jet laterally across the exciter lens and the CCD (metal tube next to the scanning drum), and give a brief squirt. Do not point the nozzle straight at it as the force of the air pressure could cause damage.

At this point, I'd give up and call an engineer, because unless I'm being really stupid and missing something, the only other possibilities are:

3. Optics and/or CCD have become misaligned. Have you had a platter wrap recently, or has the Cat 700 been knocked for any reason? If so this could have happened. You need to call an engineer to fix this - there's nothing you can do about it yourself.

4. Internal fault within the DA20 - ditto.

Hope this helps.
 


Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-11-2000, 04:35 PM:
 
"(or sometimes an 'F') is displayed while a film is running in SRD, instead there is simply a '-'. Short, flat line. "
She does say there "is only a flat line" other films are a number or F" Therefor the connections could be at fault.
I have seen them come loose especially if they didn't fish the cable in flex.
If you are ambitious remove the front cover of the DA20 and look at the display on the two cat 671 boards They display sync If a red LED on either of these boards is lit there is a fault on that board
The manual is online here if you don't have it

 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-11-2000, 06:23 PM:
 
Sorry - didn't read GLB's post carefully enough (just got to the end of another 15hr shift). That has to be a connection fault or something very wrong in the DA-20. For it to be picking up data one minute and nothing the next rules out the bulb or alignment (unless the failure happened just after the Cat 700 got a very serious shock).

Will file the Cat 671 tip - many thanks.
 


Posted by Marc Jones (Member # 29) on 09-11-2000, 07:20 PM:
 
I recently went through a simular problem,
Majority of the time the DA 20 had a "F" or played for a while then switched out and then an"F".

Replaced the Lamp and now it holds between 3 or 4.
On mine the reflector around the bulb had some dull places I guess due to the heat.
Good luck
Marc Jones
 


Posted by Neil Di Scala (Member # 592) on 09-11-2000, 07:35 PM:
 
Some time ago, I had three DA20's that had a power supply cable in the back that would overheat, change the voltage, and the processor would get really stupid. There is a cover over it on the back of the DA20. Also, pull the cards out of the DA20 and push them back in. Do that to all the plugs also. Change the bulb, play around with the light pipe a little bit to see if it got really pushed out of position.

Believe it or not, I had a DA10 that would get hot and work poorly. I put a small fan on it and it worked fine without doing anything else.
 


Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 09-11-2000, 08:29 PM:
 
"play around with the light pipe a little bit"????


"
 


Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-12-2000, 01:43 AM:
 
There were bad molex connectors on some of the power supplies on earlier models. Don't rule that out.

Please clarify these and we'll take it from there...

You are never getting a number, only a "-" on the display...right?

What did this particular auditorium typically run error-wise at before this incident?

Also, it just happened very suddenly one day and this was not a gradual thing, right?

Was anything done to the machine when it died? (Such as changing to a new lamp.)

Are you certain the bulb is fully seated properly in the holder? Take the back cover of the reader off slowly and peek inside. Sometimes the wire can twist the bulb a little bit and knock the lamp just slightly out of the socket which kills the light onto the ccd.


 


Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 09-12-2000, 02:21 AM:
 
Ok Brad - to answer your questions...

-only a '-' no numbers, no 'F', in the past 9 days

-the theater opened in late winter this year, and was open for at least a month before we actually got the SRD working, but once it was all squared away, we had no problems with it until last weekend; as far as numbers displayed, film trailers & policy trailers could get anything from a 6 to an F, but the prints generally got from a 3 to a 6

-it was not gradual, the SRD was working for three matinee shows, then I came in for the evening shift, and when I started the first evening showing on that projector, I immediately noticed the problem

-the only thing done to the machine when this happened was that had I threaded the film, then hit the start button!

Now, I am not aware of the what full extent of the initial problem was with the equipment, though it seems that the initial problem was with the DA20. At that point we had a projectionist / tech working for us, and he eventually got the ailments worked out. That person has since gone to work elsewhere in the country.
The bulb that is in the reader has been there for just under 8 months, and I do have a spare, but I am 99% certain that the bulb is not the problem.

Now, I did try to open up part of the reader to see if the cable was loose, but I ran into a problem - not being able to remove a particular screw, as the top of the screw seems to have been stripped a bit. And for whatever reason, I have at least half a dozen flathead screwdrivers, in various sizes among the booth tools, but only one phillips head screwdriver - and its a relatively small one. So it was relatively useless to me.
I'll have to bring in some of my own tools to take that witch apart and see if my problem is only a loose cable!
And yes, I already opened up the soundrack and checked to see that everything was connected on that end!

~Gracia

------------------
In some cultures, what I do is considered normal.
 


Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-12-2000, 03:33 AM:
 
Go ahead and change the bulb (assuming the existing one is properly seated) to rid yourself of that possibility.

I'm leaning more toward a bad card in the DA20 now. I think it's just about time for you to call the tech and have him hook up his scope and laptop to check the alignment and go from there.
 


Posted by Cory Johnson (Member # 103) on 09-12-2000, 10:24 PM:
 
Actually, this sounds exactly like the kind of problem that we experienced with our DA20 and CP 500, at about the same time interval you are looking at. We also had the SRD working great and all of a sudden, it would nt work, only displaying a - on the meter. We changed the bulb and it started working again. Another 6 months down the road and the same thing happened again. Again we replaced the bulb and it started to work again. Well after complaining the the techs about it, we finally got someone in there that tested the voltage to the digital reader bulb and found out it was set too high. He adjusted the voltage and the thing has run great ever since (over a year). If I were you, I would replace the bulb and get the voltage tested on the reader. (I think I should have guessed that ours would be flaky - for some reason, the dolby sticker is "upside down" on our reader from the factory. It must be a Dolby thing...)...
 
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 09-13-2000, 10:47 AM:
 
Wasn't there a offical Dolby tech notice regarding the power supply in a CAT 700 soundhead?
 
Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 09-13-2000, 12:43 PM:
 
Yes there were field bulletins for both thepower supplies in the DA20 AND the Cat 700. The older versions of both units are NOTORIOUS for having the molex connectors burn up, causing a complete failure of the power supply. There were noted on how to remove the molex and straight wire-wrap the lamp wiring on a 700 directly to the posts on the circuit board, provided the posts didnt get hot enough to burn themselves through the board. The DA20 bulletin recommended getting a replacement power supply cable with improved molex connectors, or if the posts were too far gone, to have the power supply replaced. I have had to repair fried molex connectors and/or power supplies on EVERY pre-1997 DA20 and Cat 700 in our inventory.

Aaron


 


Posted by Marc Jones (Member # 29) on 09-13-2000, 07:15 PM:
 
One other question are you loading the CAT 700 correctly, ie the tensioning of the film around the sound drum.
Good Luck
Marc Jones
 
Posted by Russ Kress (Member # 461) on 09-14-2000, 12:08 AM:
 
One thing to try.

Even though you are getting a dash, go ahead and press the "soft key" assigned to Dolby Digital on the processor (assuming you are using a CP-500).

You will either see a pop-up message saying "not ready" or "not available".

"Not ready" simply tells you what you already know. No digital data seen.

"Not available" means a hardware fault. Check to see if the fault leds on the two 671 cards being used for aquisition are lit.

If the 222SR/A is faulty or mis-seated, digital will indicate "not available" as well.

You can also call Dolby on the phone and ask for Lonnie. If he can't fix it, then it simply isn't broken! (LOL)

He also speaks every-day English!

A ten minute phone conversation with him equals about 10 credit hours <grin>.

Russ
 


Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 09-14-2000, 12:20 AM:
 
First, thanks to everyone who offered input to help me out with my dilemma!

My SRD is working once again! :::does a happy dance:::
Here's what I did - (after bringing in my own, rather nice 2-in-1 screwdriver)
I had to loosen the bolts holding the electric changeover box, so I could move it enough to be out of my way. Then the back of the cat 700 was more accessible. Once I had the back off the cat 700, the problem was obvious. The cable that connects the reader to the processor had worked itself loose.

So after reconnecting the cable, and putting the rest of my machin back together, I tested it out by running our [generic] policy trailers on the machine. Granted, the policy trailers get used over and over and over and over, and as we have no film guard - the trailers are filthy. Even so, I got indication that the reader & processor are working...the first trailer bounced between an 8 and an F, the second one had a solid 7.
Hey, I'm just happy that it's working!

~Gracia

------------------
In some cultures, what I do is considered normal.
 


Posted by Jon Bartow (Member # 241) on 09-22-2000, 07:31 PM:
 
Gracia,
Greetings from Michigan!
In case you're interested, The DA20 that you have is about three years old. It was purchased used. The initial problem was the power supply connecting cable (the molex connectors were burnt) also the CAT700 lamp was set around 3.8 volts.
For anyone else who is interested the rack includes a DA20, CP200, and 4 Crown CE2000 amps.
Anyway, Hi Gracia and feel free to drop me a e-mail with any questions about your booth!
Jon
 




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