This is topic Aperture Plate Question in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Alan Sakaida (Member # 577) on 09-15-2000, 05:02 PM:
 
I'm interested in finding out why aperture plates, once cut correctly, can develop slight shadows. The bulb and lens is properly focused. The shadows are random and do not follow a pattern like lamphouse/projector settling or masking changes. One theory is that the metal expands and shrinks with the heat causing imperfection over time. Any other theories or facts?

 
Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 09-15-2000, 06:55 PM:
 
Are the shadows on the picture edges? Are they both sides or both the top and bottom at the same time? If it's just one side and not both, and not all the time I'd say it's something to do with aperture location, possibly the turret. Need a couple more details -- for instance, are these turret machines with auto aperture changers?
 
Posted by Mark Huff (Member # 480) on 09-15-2000, 08:53 PM:
 
Something to also remember is when your plate is cut the bulb is usually the first bulb ever in the lamphouse. The plat is cut according to the bulbs seated position. It is virtually impossible to place the bulb at the exact same position. With this then your shadows start. Also you are correct when you say the expansion and contraction from heat. Unless you have a Christie Reference console you probably will never get the bulb back to the same point again. Even with the Reference console I doubt it is perfect. Plates sometimes need to be recut over a period of time. Sometime you can adjust turrets and sometimes not. Hope this gives you a little more info
 
Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 09-15-2000, 09:42 PM:
 
If it has been a while since the plates have been cut and the picture appears to have 'shrunk' over time, pull the plate and using a knife or other sharp blade, scrape the edges of the plate carefully, avoiding nicking or removing any metal from the plate. you will notice quite a bit of crud coming off the plate and when replaced the picture will be back to original specs!

Aaron


 


Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 09-15-2000, 10:41 PM:
 
I'm sure that the openings in aperture plates shrink slightly over time, especially if they were filed with a "knife edge" which is usually the preferred method. The thin edge seems susceptible to heat cycles.

About 6 months after a theater opens, I notice a slight shadow on the top of the screen because (I think) the projector has settled. With the weight (the projection head) in the front, it pulls the front down.

And, (as others have noted) changing or adjusting the xenon bulb puts it in a slightly different position, whih can also cause a shadow.

Masking motor limit switches and rigging shift a little, too.

I always left about 1 foot around the masking (depending on the screen size.) Some people would think that's a bit too much, but I never had to go back and refile. Even with that, I was able to keep cropping equal to or less than 2%.
 


Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 09-15-2000, 11:09 PM:
 
You might also want to think about your screens if your screens are pretty old they may settle a bit causing the screen to be different from the cut aperture if nothing else works you may want to see if having your screens re-hung is a possibility
 
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-16-2000, 01:14 AM:
 
I wouldn't be worrying about the screens too much... stick with the plates and clean out the opening. Your problem is most likely there.

That screen post reminded me of the time I came on shift to find the lateral guide screw on the century had worked its way loose and the film was moving horizontally a bit on screen. On the way up the stairs an usher stopped me and said we had a problem with the screen because the picture kept shaking...

I just looked at him in amazement.


 


Posted by Neil Di Scala (Member # 592) on 09-16-2000, 01:36 AM:
 
These are all excellent comments, reflecting experience uncommon in the industry. A couple of other factors include the condition of the bulb and reflector then and now (an older bulb and/or overheated reflector will throw a somewhat less focused beam, causing a bigger shadow).

This entire topic of the optics is seriously under appreciated and a major flaw in the installation and maintenance in a lot of plexes.

I have been doing some portable setups for animation and film festivals (lots of Spike & Mike) for a number of years, using 6 lamphouses with two projectors. The subtle changes in the optics mentioned above, with the repetition of sometimes once a week, make it apparent that a lot of new equipment installers don't really understand this part very well.

I have seen a lot of new installation alignments that were close, but the benefits gained by centering the reflector on the arc and directly through the center of the aperture, through the center of the lens, and the center of the screen are substantial.

In addition to the obvious benefits (more light at less amps) the depth of field of focus can be very different depending on the care of the installer.

This is a very interesting subject, one in which there is a lot to learn.
 


Posted by Alan Sakaida (Member # 577) on 09-16-2000, 01:55 AM:
 
Great replies, thanks! Pat, these are all non-turret projectors and the shadows are usually random. Most times it does seem to be a type of oxidation build up. I did overlook the fact of bulb replacement positioning. Thanks again.
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-16-2000, 04:45 AM:
 
If the shadow is on one or two edges, I would strongly recommend you tweek the lens alignment. I always make it a point to cut plates for non-turret projectors with the flat lens set-ring in the same position as the scope with specific instructions to install the same way regardless of lens. Technically you wouldn't think this to be necessary, but it is. Rarely have I found a lens is mounted absolutely perfectly in the carrier. Rotating the flat lens almost always brings about and changes the aperture shadows. Also, the amount of torque applied when tightening the carrier in the projector will affect the lens positioning. What brand of xenon are you using currently? Is this the same brand of xenon the theater was using when the aperures were cut? I've noticed that using a different manufacturer's xenons from the original brand to be another cause of aperture shadows. Finally, I am a firm believer that all xenons should be refocused once a month to maximise light output. This greatly helps to control the shadow problem as well.

In other words, your apertures are "probably" fine, although I do agree that over a significant amount of time, the heat from the lamp will affect the aperture to some degree. Try everything else you can before you go cutting.


 


Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 09-16-2000, 07:50 AM:
 
Alan; since these are single lens projectors, good chance the apertures just aren't getting back to the exact same place each time you insert them. Are they tight when you slide them into the trap? Are they loose, and can you adjust shadows on screen by moving the aperture around in the trap?

Could also be the lens holders and adapters as well. Most adapters have some play in them as they fit in the 4-inch holder and just don't quite register in exactly the same place each time. Clampng the lens in the holder a little more or less tightly can make a difference on screen, depending on the projector and the fit of the parts.

I've found it's best, for instance, to give the lens a little "twist" in one direction as you tighten the holder, that usually gets things lined up in the same place. If the initial alignments of the system are setup the same that usually works fairly well.

Don't forget that just the slightest change in alignment at the projector can make a significant change in the image location on screen. Depending on the throw and lens focal length, change in the projection angle of less than one degree can translate into several inches or more of change at the screen.

Other suggestions above are good as well -- masking stops can drift, masking edges sag, etc. I think the more random things are probably projector-based, though, or there are real problems with the masking motors.

I will say this: re-file apertures only after you know the problem lies there.

Be sure to check film ratios and masking stops using RP40 test film before doing any filing. The aperture opening may require a little buffing now and again to get rid of burnt-on film and oil goo, but if the system was installed correctly by a good tech re-filing an aperture should be among the last things you need to do.

Good luck!


 


Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 09-17-2000, 05:44 PM:
 
You NEED to run a loop of RP-40. I would bet that the lens isn't aligned correctly. Assuming that the theatre was set up correctly, if the image is centered, then the problem probably lies in the masking. If there has been any humidity in the auditorium, then the masking material has probably shrunk. This is why you NEED to use RP-40. If you just re-cut the plate to fit the screen, then you might end up overcutting the plate.

I'm not questioning your knowledge, but since you don't have turrets, is it possible that someone has switched plates and/or lenses? I have never seen an aperature plate "shrink"

Rick
 


Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-17-2000, 06:58 PM:
 
While I'm thinking about it, beware of lateral guide rollers that have drifted ever so slightly. Christie makes an awful nice tool to align these on the P35GP.
 
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 09-17-2000, 10:18 PM:
 
Would lateral guides create an aperature plate shadow
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-18-2000, 06:25 AM:
 
Technically no, but yes too. I've seen many theaters complain of "aperture shadows" when the lateral guide rollers had just drifted barely enough to display the edge of the frame against the masking. While generally this is a sharp edge, the projected left side is commonly fuzzy. Many people have mistaken this for an aperture shadow.

I'm just trying to think of any possibilities for the guy.
 


Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 09-18-2000, 12:47 PM:
 
Good thoughts from Brad and Richard both, especially the aperture plate swapped with another machine.

Anything new since?
 


Posted by John T. Mellor (Member # 468) on 09-18-2000, 08:21 PM:
 
Allof the replies are valid , the best thing I have found is to ask some questions before you start to ajust or cut a new plate. Is the bulb ok and in alignment ,is the reflector good and centered is the bulb focused properly is the projector aligned to the lamphouse , check the lens and lens barrel, then look at the plate, . Again , may old mentor told me don't rush into a fix but find the real problem before you fix it.

Hope it helps ,
John
 


Posted by Megan Penmann (Member # 233) on 09-21-2000, 10:00 PM:
 
Someone mentioned the problem with projectors "settling" and the picture gradually overshooting towards the bottom of the screen. Our theatre has been open for 10 months now, and I'd like to correct the ones where it's noticeable. What's the best way to go about doing this?
 
Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 09-22-2000, 12:54 AM:
 
ive never actually seen this Ive only worked in well worn in older theatres. a friend of mine works at a new 20 screen where all the aperatures are off and he said that it was because they cut the plates right after they hung the screens he said they should have waited a week or so... ?
 
Posted by Martin Frandsen (Member # 74) on 09-22-2000, 03:26 AM:
 
There was an excellent thread regarding aperture plate's here on the forum 5 months ago.


 


Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-22-2000, 05:30 AM:
 
Megan Penmann said: "Someone mentioned the problem with projectors "settling" and the picture gradually overshooting towards the bottom of the screen. Our theatre has been open for 10 months now, and I'd like to correct the ones where it's noticeable. What's the best way to go about doing this?"

I doubt that "settling" is a common problem, so look first for other causes. First, be sure your aperture plate and lenses are properly seated in the projector, and haven't been changed (e.g., filed, shimmed) without your knowledge. If the image is still too low on the screen, the adjustment will depend upon whether you have a console or pedestal mount for the lamphouse and projector. Most consoles have adjustable leveling "feet" that can be adjusted to raise or lower each corner of the console slightly. On cast iron pedestals, there is usually a large knob that turns an adjusting screw that tilts the lamphouse and projector back and forth to raise and lower the projection angle. Or, like consoles, the pedestal may have been leveled with four screw-adjusted "feet". Sometimes, shims are used under the "feet" -- perhaps they slipped out of position?

As always, use the SMPTE 35-PA (RP40) test film to verify the image size and position on the screen. The black screen masking should define sharp edges corresponding to the format --- ideally a 0.825 inch image width for all of today's 35 mm formats. Scope projectable image height is 0.690 inches. Flat 1.85:1 projectable image height is 0.446 inches. In reality, unless the projector is perfectly orthogonal to the screen, there will be some "keystoning" that may require slight cropping of the image to get a rectangular image on the screen.

A good way to get a "feel" for what changing various things like throw, lens focal length, projection angle, etc. do, is to use the Schneider Theatre Design Pro software, which can be downloaded from their site:
http://www.schneideroptics.com/theatre/desprodn.html

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
 


Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-22-2000, 02:23 PM:
 
Another possibility just crossed my mind. The aperture plates in many models of projectors (such as a Century) are easily inserted "upside down". If these are non-stadium/non-curved screens, the aperture in many instances will "almost" work, but will feature aperture shadows.

I always take the edge of a file and "notch" the top edge of the plates and scratch in the theater number.
 






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