Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: bad print

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 09-19-2000, 05:49 PM:

Hello everyone

I receive "Me, myself and Irene" in bad condition. I had to replace parts # 1,2,3 since they were scratched on the base side: thousand of little black lines...

Parts #4,5,6 seems ok but after two weeks of projection the print is full of black spots like the film was showed for 6 months...

I usually clean the print once a week with a soft cloth. I didn't have any problems with other prints projected for 2.5 months.

I inspected carefully the print and I realized that these spots are now part of the print, I cannot remove them.

Someone knows what happened to that print?
What should be do next time to avoid these kind of problem (don't tell me to use film-guard!!)?

Bye
Antonio

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 09-19-2000, 08:35 PM:

That print was run into the ground at some US or Canadian theatre...

The black spots are most likely ground-in dirt or polyester dust...

The 'thousands of little black scratches' could have many causes, One of the biggest culprits in some of the places I have serviced is projectionists that fail to set the 1/4" gap on a Dolby Cat 700 reader, allowing the film to scratch against itself in opposite directions on the base side. After explaining the proper way to tension a Cat 700 to the staff, practically all of the base-side scratching vanished from subsequent prints shown in those houses.

Aaron

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-19-2000, 09:40 PM:

Use FilmGuard!

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Actually it probably would solve your problem, but I agree with Aaron that dirt is probably well embedded into the print. Any way to find out who played that print before you? Clearly the last person who had it had at least one misthread and probably some abrasive areas of the projector, causing the shedding.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 09-20-2000, 08:33 AM:

The print was new...

This is the problem: When I projected the film for the first time I'm sure that was clean.
The problem come out gradually in two weeks.
I'm pretty sure that my projector is ok since trailers and adv are ok.
Is it possible that this film was printed badly and the print itself collect more dust that usual?

Brad: I would like to try your film-guard but, unfurtunately, the theater is not mine and the managers don't want to try a cleaning system...

Bye
Antonio

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-20-2000, 08:58 AM:

Antonio:

Is the print on Kodak film? Look at the magenta-colored edge identification, printed approximately once per metre along the edge of the film. The improved Kodak VISION Color Print Film (2383 or 2393) is quite resistant to projector abrasion and flaking, but some other manufacturers films may still be prone to flaking. Kodak VISION Color Print Film also has a transparent conductive anti-static backing, so it will NOT attract and hold dirt with static attraction, even if you deliberately try to put a static charge on the film.

Are you finding a buildup of dust in your projector? Any areas in particular (e.g., in the gate and around the intermittent sprocket)? Check to see if the alignment is good, and there is no buildup or rough spots on the film-contacting surfaces.

Here is an article I wrote about projector abrasion and dusting several years ago (before FilmGuard, which many here have found useful for cleaning and lubricating prints when used properly):
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/newsletters/reel/summer98/pointer.shtml

As the article notes, using a film cleaner helps remove the loose dirt, and properly lubricating the prints will significantly reduce projector abrasion.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 09-21-2000, 05:21 AM:

John,

The original parts seems to be Kodak (I will check better). The replacement (first three reels) are Fuji.

I asked to the distributor and seems that entire Italy is claiming about "Me, Myself and IRene" because was printed during summer and, you know, labs would like to be in vacation...

Yes, I have a little problem to my second projector since few months and I'm unable to fix it.
Once I found a little and *continue* scratch on DD soundtrack. After few weeks that print was unable to play in DD.
Our *professional* Cinemeccanica's tech were unable to understand the problem. I've partially resolved it few weeks later. The continuosly scratch stops but now I have a little "cut" every 4-8-16 perf directly on DD! Obiously the problem stays in a sproket, I'vce checked each one carefully but with no results.
The strange thing is that now the film stays perfect also after weeks of projection. So I thought to have resolved the problem. No. I saw that little "cut" on adv, at the end of film. Is it possilble that ADV are "softer" rather than film?

However I don't have singificantly amount of dust on that projector. But reels 4,5,6 are in bad condition...
Is it possible that a wrong print procedure can make the print more "fragile"???

Thanks
Antonio

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-21-2000, 06:13 AM:

Antonio:

From your description, it does sound like your second projector is abrading the Dolby Digital track area. Try to find the cause, most likely a worn or rough spot on the gate or intermittent sprocket shoe. Is the "cut" on the base or emulsion side of the film?

As I noted, proper lubrication of the prints will significantly reduce abrasion by the projector. Very high humidity can make the gelatin emulsion softer, and easier to scratch and build up as a hard deposit. Keep the humidity in your projection room less than 60% RH. Freshly processed "green" prints also have a higher moisture content, and "harden" with use. Really hot, humid summer weather may make it more difficult for the labs to dry the prints completely to the recommended 50% RH equilibration:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/processing/h249/h2409_02.shtml#132073

It would be very unusual for reels to be a mix of different film stocks, so I suspect all the reels are Fuji film.

Posted by Carl King (Member # 398) on 09-21-2000, 07:51 AM:

Arron:

Could you explain the 1/4" gap setting that you mentioned. This is the first I've heard of it. I get very little scratching from the two houses that I use the Cat 700 in so they must be properly adjusted but teach me something anyway

Thanks
Carl King

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-21-2000, 08:10 AM:

"Very little scratching?!? Hmmm....

If any piece of film ever gets scratched, then there is something seriously wrong, either with your equipment or with your operators. The usual scratch test is to run a loop of black leader through the projector for several hundred passes, which will help you identify what is causing the scratching. If the loop isn't scratched and you are using a platter system, check the rollers. If you still haven't found any problems, then you probably have an operator who is making loops to large or something like that.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 09-21-2000, 11:42 AM:

Carl:

If the Cat 700 is properly threaded, the two smaller rollers (the ones in between the sprocket and the flywheel drum) should be about 1/4" apart from each other. If the tension is one perf too loose, the rollers will contact each other causing several problems, the biggest being the fact that now the film is directly rubbing aginst itself in opposite directions leading to major scratching on the base side. Another problem with 'too loose' is that the reader-to-film alignment is incorrect so the print will be playing in analog anyways, unless you got lucky and it tracked properly. Thirdly if the film is loose enough to not spin the flywheel drum (this problem is common on 'too-loose' SDDS readers as well) the drum will not turn, causing major damage to the film as well.

If the reader is threaded according to the little picture and the manual with the two tension arms flush with the little white semicircles the gap between rollers should be 1/4" or so. If too tight, you get a lot of noise from the sprocket teeth, and the potential for perf damage to the film (similar to setting a holdback sprocket on a Century too tight)

Hope this cleared things up.

Aaron

http://www.cinema-west.com

[ 05-28-2008, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Sisemore ]

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 09-21-2000, 03:25 PM:

John,

You didn't understand. The replace reels I've received are Fuji, the original ones are Kodak (i think, I have to check bettere the number).
The little scratch (made by my projector) is on the emulsion side. However is very little and every a multiple of 4 perf.
Scott. I am the operator! I'm sure that all that "thousand of little black scratches" were not made by my projector!

But what is strange is that now the film is full of black spots on the entire frame. I noted that that spots are not damage on the print but little pieces of dust embedded in the print itself. I don't think that is my projector because:

1. Trailer and ADV are right.
2. The previous film was right.
3. I don't have any buildup of dust.

John, can a print not properly dried collect more dust than usual?

thx
Antonio

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-21-2000, 03:37 PM:

Antonio:
As mentioned, hot humid weather can make the gelatin emulsion of the film harder to dry properly by the lab, or the print can pick up moisture from the humid air. As the moisture level increases, the emulsion can become softer and stickier, and more likely to scratch or pick up dirt. Ideally, keep the relative humidity in your projection room between 50 and 60 percent.

What are the complete batch numbers printed along the edges of the reels in magenta-colored letters? It's unusual to mix different stocks in the same release.

Posted by Mike Jones (Member # 522) on 09-21-2000, 04:30 PM:

ok, here's probably what happened! No mumbo jumbo... The studio sent you the print, (it may have been late even) and it was still in the process of drying... the same thing happened to us with "saving private ryan," it came to us late and WET! The studio charged us for destroying their print when it was totally their fault.

p.s. "polyester dust" uh... No.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-21-2000, 06:45 PM:

Re Aaron Sizemore's mention of the Cat 700: another similar way to write off a print is to lace it the wrong way round one of the rollers (bottom, on the left) on a Component Engineering FM-35 automation pickup. The base will then abrade against a sharp edge under quite a lot of pressure and totally ruin a print in one fell swoop. I once did this to an old trailer just to see how bad the result would be, and I doubt if even Filmguard could have rescued what came out of that projector...

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-22-2000, 04:13 AM:

Leo, you can physically slide the FM35 backwards a little bit toward the lamphouse to eliminate that potential for scratching. When properly aligned, the FM35 cannot scratch regardless of which way you thread around the first roller.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-22-2000, 06:00 AM:

If you ever do get a new "wet" or "sticky" reel, ask for a replacement immediately! If there was a problem in drying the film, the gelatin emulsion will be softer, and much more likely to scratch, build up hard deposits in the gate, or pick up dirt. In my experience, poorly dried prints are very rare, but it can happen.

Posted by Paul Cunningham (Member # 501) on 09-22-2000, 07:53 AM:

No offence to you Carl as you didnt know something and asked a question, good on you.
Even though I shouldn't be I am still amazed everytime I hear about the lack of training some people get. How could someone teach a person to be a "projectionist" and not even mention how to thread the Cat 700 properly? Do the teachers in these cases even know how to thread themselves?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-23-2000, 12:34 PM:

Brad - thanks for the FM-35 tip. I've wanted a way of bypassing the sensors for a long time. When running manually using changeovers, if you don't manage to stop the motor before the reel runs out then 'presence detect' alarms and raises the house lights. There have been times when this has happened about 10 secs after a perfect changeover, and I'm sick of it. Will investigate moving FM-35 units back.

Have also had problems running silents - 16fps dosen't seem to be fast enough for 'motion detect' to work, so I have to bypass it using the microswitch in the TA-10. This should put an end to that, too. Dunno why I didn't think of it...

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 05-26-2008, 04:33 AM:

It has been 2801 days since the last post.

Posted by Ben LaCrosse (Member # 4662) on 05-26-2008, 04:33 AM:

On the topic of cat 700 threading...

If someone were to thread the reader at maximum tightness, for 4 shows in a row, would this cause areas of black on the soundtrack side? It is hard to explain, they happen so fast. Kinda splotchy, but instead of staying on screen like a normal scratch, they flash.

This happened today, on both of our Dolbly cat 700 houses. Doing a walk-through when my shift came on and then I heard the sound. That film under high stress sound, like a prolonged ripping. Those tension rollers were wide open. And now there is this black smudge crap on both prints.

I inspected the film and counted upwards of 7 scratches and reoccurring abrasions on the soundtrack side. The vertical scratches are not visible on screen. And maybe the blackness is the abraded areas I'm seeing. But can I safely argue that the negligent threading of the reader could have led to this?

SDDS dfp 2000 reader sits on top of both readers, if that matters.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-26-2008, 09:54 AM:

The rollers on the penthouse reader are bevelled so that even if the roller were to seize and stop spinning only the sprocket hole area of the film is in contact with the rollers. As far as having too much tension maybe it caused the film to buckle and come into contact with the rollers?