Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Theatre money plight not as bad as it looks

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Posted by Neil Di Scala (Member # 592) on 09-20-2000, 12:53 PM:

In reading the filing information, the leases that the various companies have signed are included in the filing. For example, a 10 year lease at $10,000./per month will show up as a LIABILITY OF $1.2M.
The total needs to be included as a liability in order to have it dismissed. I would guess that while the totals are still huge, this constitutes the majority of the filings' debit base. Consolidation is inevitable, and the movie pipeline appears to have fewer 'blockbusters' in it than today, meaning next year...

We are still in a desperate situation, as a whole.

Unlike a store filled with tv's that go down, these big boxes are a negative with little other use (urban campus?) and no tv's to sell when they crash.

I would be happy with a reduced # of screens with better presentation.

Hey, has anyone ever considered that the reason some prefer carbon arc is that the reflector gets cleaned everyday and the arc focused constantly? Dirty, poorly adjusted lamphouses produce dark, poorly focused images. Maybe it is just a coincidence.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-20-2000, 01:13 PM:

Neil said: "Hey, has anyone ever considered that the reason some prefer carbon arc is that the reflector gets cleaned everyday and the arc focused constantly? Dirty, poorly adjusted lamphouses produce dark, poorly focused images. Maybe it is just a coincidence."

IMHO, it's not a coincidence. Bean counters often confuse "low maintenance" with "NO maintenance". Technically skilled people and service contracts are often the first to go when cutting costs.

One of my real concerns about Digital Cinema is that people will believe the hype that the equipment is almost maintenance free. Some are even proposing eliminating the projection room, and putting the digital projectors in relatively inaccessable "closets" or mounted near the ceiling.

I've seen enough poor large screen displays on video walls and in sports bars to know that electronic displays require attention to maintain any decent level of quality.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I think the "human touch" is being eliminated in too many areas that still need it, including projection. IMHO, good projection (regardless of whether it is film or digital) is a skill, and not something that can be done in a closet by remote control.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-20-2000, 03:54 PM:

Something I noticed today:

I went to a "Race Trac" convenience store this morning to pick up coffee on the way to work. There was a sign in the window that said, "Now hiring! Starting pay $8 / hr."

Anybody wonder why there aren't any good projectionists left? It's because you can make $8 at the "Quikie Mart" and the theatres only pay mimimum!

Posted by Neil Di Scala (Member # 592) on 09-20-2000, 05:15 PM:

John is absolutely right. The actual point of light is about the size of the head of a pin, and is subject to heating/cooling variables, vibration and dirt. The demands on the light source are even greater for DLP than film. Also, who decides when the light valve needs replacing? Day one it is at peak, then it is a value judgement, based on economics. These are expensive, and with a dirty, unfocused lamphouse this is going to make people stay home.

For theaters now, this is a maintenance item that actually pays for itself. I have gotten 10,400 hours on a Osram 2k, rotating and cleaning frequently. I feel bad if I only get 4,000, even if I have to start at 75 amps (85 max) to light the screen.

Is it my imagination, or do Osram bulbs recently seem to be developing a flicker earlier than they used to ? I still prefer O's, (I guess I get used to white light instead of blue, without naming names), but maybe they could bring back those radioactive anode/diode bulbs that probably shortened your life, but held a great arc.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-20-2000, 06:42 PM:

10,000 hours
I will ot repair any lamphouse i get called to service if I find the offending lamp has more than 20% above its warrantied rating hours on it.
The warranty life is based on what a normal average produces
It is impossible for any lamp to be stable or produce the necessary amount of light much past that point
The electrode spacing has increased and as such ignitions are more difficult and stability is an issue
Also the light out put will be far less than even overdriving it will produce
Also the fact that the envolope will have clouded will reduce the point source effect noticably and as such focus and contrast will be degraded on the screen
You theatre must have a pretty dim picture at 10,000hours as no theatre designs there lamphouse sizing for that old of lamp's light output

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 09-20-2000, 06:43 PM:

Can someone post the procedures for cleaning lamphouses and rotating bulbs?

Posted by Jim Ziegler (Member # 86) on 09-21-2000, 12:41 PM:

You can make $8 a the Quickie mart, but in a booth you have a much lower change of getting a gun in your face..

Posted by Neil Di Scala (Member # 592) on 09-21-2000, 02:53 PM:

Huh? Oh, I guess this is the part where I am supposed to defend myself. Having now been ritually eviscerated, castrated, and beheaded by the Light Saber of the Most Holy Jedi Knight of the Jedi Council of Dantooine, all I can do is offer a defense, a few opinions, and go quietly into the night, my head tucked under the right arm, a blackened 2k held defensively in my left.

I am giving my critic all the information (along with the well-developed power of the Force) to fully evaluate this theater. Perhaps a compatriot could surreptitiously spy on the theater, and report back on his shoe phone. If the Jedi Knight would like to visit in person, I am there Friday and Saturday, so any other day of the week would be perfect.

The Signature Theatres Santa Cruz Cinema 9, built in 1995, is an all THX theatre. I am the steward, 20+ years journeyman. The equipment is Xetron XCN Consoles, Simplex 35 heads, matte screens. The aconic reflectors are extremely efficient. Exhaust is 1100 CFM, and I keep the fans cleaned and lubricated. The building transformer sits right in the middle of the booth, and we get a constant 118 volts per leg. I also clean the screens yearly, which is a huge factor.

The XCN/XCD manual specifies a 2000w up to screen size 15’ x 30’. Exhaust is specified at 300CFM.

This auditorium is image size 12’6”x 23’ flat, 9’9”x 23’ scope (vertical masking). Throw is 44’6”. Port glass is coated, supposedly optically pure glass (it was really expensive anyway).

The spec could really be a 1600w for this application, but everything else was a 2k. I ran it at 55 amps for almost 3000 hours. Suggested range is 60-85 amps, as I am sure you know.

I keep a big soft 100% cotton towel in the booth, and a spray bottle of alcohol at every machine. It takes less than two minutes to open the door, spray the bulb and reflector, clean with the towel, and touch up the picture. If bulb rotation is necessary, a 3/32 Allen wrench and another two minutes.

After a while, this became a science experiment. I would clean and rotate it weekly after a while. Yes, there was a loss of resolution and the light started to look yellow, and this was the reason I removed it. I could still hit studio spec on my reflected light meter (for dailies, measuring Foot/Lamberts of course).

The point I was trying to make is that cleaning and rotating the bulb will extend the life of the bulb considerably. The coating of dirt acts like an insulator, reflecting the heat back in and allowing the quartz envelope to get hot. Instead of cleaning and aligning the lamphouse, and cleaning the screen, the easy response is turning up the rectifier. This is the exact recipe to assure a complete compliance with the concept that all bulbs are worthless at 120% of warranty. I guess this is the ‘professional’ way to handle the situation, as it has been pointed out to me. I would never dream of refusing to work on a lamphouse if it had more than 120% of warranty hours on it, although I am admittedly a devout amateur, Democrat, and a sucker for stray animals and redheads.

Also, I do not think that the current generation of bulbs will do that. I think 5500 hours in the same exact lamphouse is likely.

As a whole, I get about 4200 hours average on the 2k’s. There is a loss of focus and screen resolution after a while, but if the bulbs are kept clean, cool, and rotated throughout the lifespan the blackening is reduced considerably.

Feel free to check our compliance with THX, TES, or anybody else who can get you the information. Call the Signature Theatres Head Projectionist. USE THE FORCE, LUKE

These screens are brighter than virtually any plex anywhere.

I own three projectors, six lamhouses (500-2000w), 40 lenses, and a whole lot of other crap. I do sound service and maintenance at several other theaters locally.

Little is more dangerous than a wounded projectionist with a high pain threshold and a grudge…

As this guillotined neck will not arise to be struck down again, perhaps someone else can offer up a sacrifice for the attack gratification committee. I will continue to lurk occasionally, this is an interesting site that I get a lot of information from. It must have felt great, though, to really let the self righteousness rip, kind of like a dose of flaxseed. There is no question that my critic is a technically superior individual that has the advantage of being correct on every single issue. All I have is the power of observation, and a sense of relief that I will never become my semiliterate attacker.

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 09-21-2000, 04:35 PM:

Neil;
I believe you because I've seen your theatre.

I have also seen similar performance from various manufacturers of equipment operated and maintained by PROJECTIONISTS that make the effort to take care of their equipment, AND that are allowed to do so by factors outside their control (be it management, budgets, poor equipment or environment, lack of knowledge or whatever).

We all know there are situations where, unfortunately, that doesn't happen. Neil's theatre sounds like one where it does. Isn't that a good thing?

Pat

Posted by Kevin Crawford (Member # 469) on 09-21-2000, 04:53 PM:

Good God Neil.

By the way the Jedi Council was on Coruscant, not Dantooine. Dantooine was destroyed by the Death Star. My god, I am one of those geeks that quotes Star Wars now. Someone shoot me.

At any rate, I will confirm that Neil does have one of the best presentations I have ever seen. While I am not the head projectionist for Signature Theatres, I will say that I like doing a service call there. Run loops, check SPL and watch the bikini clad women walk by on the street.

Actually, some of the people with Signature joke about Neil's obsessiveness with bulb rotation.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-21-2000, 06:49 PM:

I never believe any lamphouse manufacturers specifications on light output
Bottom line over 120% of it lifespan the UV that is being absorbed in the quartz causes it to weaken. The electrode spaceing increases on each ignition.
These are the basics of physics. I don't question you professionalism nor recomend guilotining (any one who laike stary animals and red heads can't be all bad) but I question the light level after 4200 hours on any 2K lamphouse and the overall contrast ratio.
It is false econommy and also down right dangerous

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 09-23-2000, 01:57 AM:

psst, Kevin!

Dantooine was not destroyed by the Death Star.
Alderaan was decimated by the Death Star, and the Death Star was decimated before it ever had time to destroy Dantooine. Remember, after Alderaan, the fourth moon of the planet Yavin (better known as Yavin IV) was the Death Star's target, being the home of the main base of operations for the Rebel Alliance.

Yes, I am certainly a hard-core Star Wars fan.

~Gracia *The projectionist with the purple hair* Babbidge

------------------
In some cultures, what I do is considered normal.

Posted by Kevin Crawford (Member # 469) on 09-23-2000, 11:49 AM:

That makes it even worse, that I misquote Star Wars. Damn me to hell. Someone stop me before I misquote Star Trek.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 01-09-2001, 11:19 PM:

Just reading some old posts and stumbled on to this one. Remember after alderaan was destroyed by the death star they learned later that the princess lied to them about the location of the rebal base. All they found on dantooine was the remains of a rebal base.

When it comes to my health I will change my lamps at warrenty hours plus 25%. Remember the longer the bulb is in use the higher the risk of explosion. Causing personal damage to ones self and equipment. Remember if a bulb explodes during waranty hours any damage to reflectores can be replaced at no cost to you if it is found that the bulb failed because of a deffect not improper cooling or handleing. anything after this period is not covered. I don't care how good the light still is after 10,000 hours. Safty first.

Posted by Michael Pace (Member # 553) on 01-10-2001, 12:27 AM:

Having read all of the above can anybody actually quote the number of lamp explosions that seem to be panicing everybody.

I am currently pushing a 2500watt lamp through the 9000hour mark. I do not have any plans to change the lamp at this moment as it is still giving good light and is not unstable at this point in time. The lamphouse is a CFS/Rentec LSX2500 console, vertical lamp system.

I think it may be the last of the ORC lamps that I had in stock. I am currently using Ushio lamps in the other projectors but will be using Osram in the future as our company has standardised its supply for lamps.

The last lamp I had explode on me was a 4000watt lamp on initial strike when I was in Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea in the early eighties. (scared the bloody daylights out of me) Didn't lose the mirror as we always took the mirror out for the initial strike just in case.

Regards

Michael.

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 01-10-2001, 02:43 AM:

Hi Neil! I have seen quite often vertical lamps with ample cooling run into the 10-11,000 hour range with NO detrimental
effects on picture quality! I have also seen some horizontal units well into the 9,000 hour range! Properly rotating and cooling lamps can result in an extreme number of good lamp hours! In fact, I have never had one of these 9,000 hrs + lamps ever explode! I think if you buy quality equipment & lamps and keep
them maintained, the results will speak for themslves!

KEVIN...I heard the 'turdcage' is going down the end of the month! You better call GUY! I don't think I want any of that stuff!! Even at the cheap price they want for it! Now what are you going to do????? I will be in your area next week, I guess I better get over there and take some pix before it's gone!!!

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 01-10-2001, 04:53 AM:

Michael,

We have had 4 "in warranty" failures of xenon lamps in the last 4 months. Two were explosions that took the mirrors with them.

On a circuit of 250 plus screens we have had 5 explosions in 6 years, ALL were under the manufactuers warranty hours which suggests faulty lamps, poor transport or incorrect installation. All rectifiers and air-flows were checked after explosions.

We do not allow lamps to travel past 5000 hours these days although two cinemas close to my office have just hit 5,500 with 18 footlamberts plus on c/s, no flicker or darkening of the quartz envelope evident. They are being removed this week.

When you have heard a 5kw lamp go bang, everything else is an anti-climax! Switch-on, oh, look at the ammeter bounce aroun.......................BANG!

We now run many more big lamps including 4,000, 4,500, 5,000 and at present we are installing more 7,000w lamps, but only in Kinoton projectors with water cooling.

David

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 01-10-2001, 09:27 AM:

In sixteen years I have had 4 lamp explosions during opperation. All were Osrams. Two because of excessive hours Over 3000. two within warrenty. The policy with our company is warrenty hours plus 25%. I have had some failures do to loss of xenon gas. But that has not happened in a long while.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 01-10-2001, 11:52 AM:

In 15 years this location has had one lamp explosion. One. I don't know if it was still in waranty or not.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-10-2001, 12:16 PM:

There has been an addition to most manufacturers lamps in the last 5 to 7 years that allows them to last longer. This is due to the addition of a getter to collect the vaporized tungsten. Before these getters were built into the lamps the envelope darkened dramatically near and just past a lamps rated life. Since the getter is there to collect the vaporized tungsten,the lamp envelope stays clear and does not darken. Hense pressure and heat are not contained within the lamp like they are in one with a darkened envelope. The result is a longer life lamp that puts out more light and there is less likelyhood of a lamp explosion.

For those that are nervous about changing a high hour lamp all you have to do is to wear the proper protective gear. This includes a full face shield, bullitt proof vest, and gloves as well as heavy clothing. In some states this gear is a normal state requirement when handling ANY xenon lamp. To refuse to change a lamp is ludicrous! I don't know anyone that can afford to turn down a lamp sale or service call!
Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-10-2001, 02:02 PM:

I have noticed no improvement in darkening in fact I have noticed many lamps are worse than ever at darkening

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-10-2001, 04:44 PM:

Gord, It must be a problem with the hydro up there............
Mark

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 01-10-2001, 08:43 PM:

Yes, I agree with Mark; It must be bad electricity!

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 01-10-2001, 10:00 PM:

In my almost 20 years in the business I have had only ONE lamp explosion, a 2000w ORC in a CFS lamphouse.<knocking on wood> I was in another booth at the time so I didn;t get a chance to experience the 'fury' of the explosion, but it was quite a mess with all that quartz all over the place insode. Miraculously, the dish reflector only had a couple minor pits and the diagonal folding mirror was INTACT!

I agree that proper rotatrions and most importantly cooling contribute to longer than normal lamp life...

Aaron

Posted by Kevin Crawford (Member # 469) on 01-10-2001, 10:07 PM:

John, Where did you hear that I am out of a job at the end of the month? I don't like hearing stuff like that. My resume still sucks.

Then I would have to go to work at the Crest. I think that Andy and I would get along just as well as Phil and Andy got along.

I do know that they are sending Coke out on the 24th to replace all of our Pepsi product, and they got a crap load of Coke product in the store room. Damn shame to send it all back.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-10-2001, 10:10 PM:

In addition to Mark's last paragraph of wearing protective gear, just practice a little common sense and judgement and you'll probably be just fine.

Don't fear the bulb. Just respect it for what it CAN do should it explode. Just like electrical power...don't fear it, but respect it.

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 01-10-2001, 11:37 PM:

Hi Kevin, as a matter of fact, I heard it from Andy!!!!He says the equipment is available for $2000 per screen (everything)
I have put in a call to my GCC connection in LA I will get to the bottom of this soon!!!
Regardless, I am going to try and stop by next week! Email me with your schedule! I don't want to miss you! John

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 01-11-2001, 12:06 AM:

John: You gonna be in the Sebastopol area after your stop in Sac?

-Aaron

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-11-2001, 03:25 PM:

Paul,
Thats the best addition anyone has made here to this thread! Using common sense is indeed priority number one in the booth. I have yet to have any lamp explosions in my 18 years of doing this stuff. In fact the only explosion I have been witness to was a new lamp on first ignition. I have surely cleaned up my share of explosion remnants from other careless operators though.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 01-12-2001, 12:22 AM:

Hi Aaron, YES! I will plan on stopping in and adjusting the lamp!! Email me with fone numbers, etc, I am not sure of my exact shedule yet but I will email you or call you after you send me the info! Take care! Tell Dave and the gang HI!