Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Slide Projectors

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Posted by Tom Kroening (Member # 201) on 09-23-2000, 06:53 PM:

We all just love those little things to death! Apparently we are having a few issues with them. Another manager at my theatre takes care of them (or says he does) and this is what he told me. He said that after power outages some of the slide projectors don't work. He told me he called the slide company, which in turn called the manufacture (kodak i think). He says he was told by a tech that when the power goes out the slide projectors are overheating because of the lack of air conditioning which i believe to be a bunch of BS. I'm thinking that it has to do with some sort of power surge. Now the problem is that these projectors are on a switched circuit which has a breaker on the projector. Wouldn't that breaker prevent a big enough surge to kill the damn thing? Would those $1.99 surge protectors at walmart solve this problem?

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 09-23-2000, 08:22 PM:

Your problem is you have Kodak slide projectors (sorry John

). Get Telex's. If you need to send them in for repair, I have an address for a place in Texas that will fix Kodaks.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-24-2000, 01:47 AM:

Tom,

Let me guess, they're cycling through several slides in a row and then it randomly stops on one, and then cycles several more through real quick...right? If so, I can give you a temporary fix.

Posted by Tom Kroening (Member # 201) on 09-24-2000, 12:56 PM:

Well... thats one of the problems. If they don't do that they won't work at all... I really havnt had much of a chance to look at one of the dead ones, but i know the guy put in charge of slides is constantly replacing the projectors.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-25-2000, 01:28 AM:

I want to say it was Ace Audio/Visual that fixed those things for United Artists. Unfortunately, once they broke the first time, a "repair" would not last very long and in my opinion, was a waste of money.

Just buy Telexes. They run forever. (Sorry John from me too. )

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-25-2000, 08:09 AM:

The Kodak Ektagraphic slide projectors aren't realy the thing to use in theatres / continuous use, in my opinion. They are a consumer / business presentation type of product. They aren't meant to withstand the beating that theatres give them.

Thing is, advertising companies want to spend as little $$ as possible and buy the cheaper product. I guess they don't think about repair costs, etc.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-25-2000, 11:04 AM:

Our advertising company just came in last week and told us to dim the house lights because their slides were too dim. I told them that would not happen due to safety and insurance reasons but I would be happy to run their projectors on the "high" lamp setting. They just whined about how they couldn't allow us to burn the lamps quicker like that and continued to insist the house lights be kept low.

Posted by Lance C. McFetridge (Member # 95) on 09-25-2000, 12:50 PM:

Brad, What kind of slide projectors do you use in your theatre?
lance

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-25-2000, 01:03 PM:

Turning the lights down is a common story where I came from. We just told them if some 'little, old lady' falls down and breaks her neck it's going to come out that THEY told us we had to do it.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-25-2000, 02:05 PM:

We have Kodak's. Fortunately, they are only a month old. We refuse to dim the lights. It's not our fault they did not purchase xenon slide projectors.

Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 09-25-2000, 02:48 PM:

The AMC I used to work at had Kodak slide projectors, and they never had a problem. They are about 2 and a half years old now, so they are still pretty new. I don't remember exactly what they were, but I remember they were modified by NCN in someway. Don't know what the modification was, but I will check on that when I get home tonight.

Posted by Lance C. McFetridge (Member # 95) on 09-25-2000, 03:08 PM:

In defense of the Kodak slide projectors. I have them in my theatre and I have never had a problem with them in 5 years that I have used them. I have had to do some minor maintenance on them including replacing the sockets that hold the lamp. The parts were readily available from Kodak and they take about 5 minutes to replace. I use a FHS bulb in them. I was advised by the supplier to remove the heat absorbing glass in front of the lens if I needed more light on the screen but was against that, so I didn't. I use an aftermarket timer that switches slides every 13 seconds. My slides are mounted in a glass mount, and have had no problems with the film distorting in the mounts. With a 50 ft throw, I get a reasonable picture on the screen, but I don't try to fill the whole screen with the image. I like the ektagraphic projector.
lance

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-25-2000, 05:57 PM:

Is there _any_ theatre anywhere in the world that uses xenon slide projectors for advertisements? I have never seen one, although it seems like a no-brainer to me (they're getting paid to show the ads, so cost shouldn't be a huge issue; more importantly, advertisers generally want their ads to look good on screen). I know of one theatre that uses a Brenograph carbon-arc projector which gives a nice on-screen image. I've only seen the xenon Ektagraphics used for non-advertising slide shows at lectures and such.

For what they are, the Ektagraphic projectors are decent machines, but I agree that they're really designed for home or office use and not for continuous use in theatres. I have one at home that's about 10 years old and works great, but I don't use it for several hours a day, every day, either... Telexes are nice for theatre use. On the other hand, one could make the argument that a non-functioning slide projector is preferable if it means that audiences don't have to suffer through advertising before the film starts...

You don't want FHS bulbs. These are the cheap ones that last a really long time but don't give much light. EXR bulbs are standard and EXW bulbs are brighter but don't last that long. For those with older Ektagraphics, there's apparently an upgraded lamp module available that takes the same bulbs but gives better light. I haven't seen this, though.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 09-25-2000, 11:30 PM:

It should be noted that there are many different models of the before mentioned Kodak projector. Some people may be haveing better experiences due to better models. I odn't know ours off the top of my head, but will post tommorrow. I just know they burn through bulbs 2 to 3 times faster than the 2 Telexes we hava and that since I took over the job of managing the slides over a year ago I've had to send every Kodak in for repair at least, AT LEAST once while the Telexs have remained in perfect working order.

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 09-26-2000, 02:13 AM:

bulbs are never a problem - they are supplied through the advertising agency. My company does not pay for them. If I run out, I just call C&A advertising, and they send me out 16 more.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 09-26-2000, 08:53 AM:

Of course they're not a problem, we've got the same deal with C&A. Its just that they cost 13 dollars a piece, and I gotta assume the more money C&A makes, the more money we make. Besides, continously changing those things gets to be a pain in the ass.

Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 09-26-2000, 09:12 AM:

The problem with using a Xenon slide projector would be the lamp. They are very expensive and shouldn't be turned off during the show. They would require an exhaust (could be patched into your projector exhaust) and would create a considerable amount of heat in the booth. Also since the lamp does produce so much light (more specifically heat) you have to use glass slides which are also expensive.

All in all Xenon slide projectors aren't cost effective. If you can just dim the lights at the very front of the auditorium next to the screen you will get a good image. Also don't try and fill the screen, it will help the movie appear more impressive when it comes up that way. I have had good success doing this. Most theatres probably can't do that, but if you can, give it a try.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-26-2000, 01:58 PM:

Kodak's website has lots of information on Kodak slide projectors and digital projectors:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/digital/av/

I've heard that the slide projectors are very dependable, and many have a 4-year warranty. Could it be that the ones that fail early have been modified (e.g., heat filters removed to get more light) or have the cooling impaired?

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-26-2000, 03:14 PM:

Dave,

We had 500 watt xenon Telex slide projectors at the double-purpose theater/classroom college theater and they required no exhaust, no special slides (the art professors would sometimes stay on a slide for 10 minutes and there was no damage) and barely produced any heat. I wish I knew the model number, but that was way too many years ago. Anyway, the light output on the 40 foot screen was incredible. Those are just the type of machines theaters need.

Posted by Steven Gorsky (Member # 603) on 09-26-2000, 07:51 PM:

One reason for short slide projector bulb life is the fact (at least in my theatre's set-up) that the slide projector is just cut off, not allowing the fan to run to properly cool the bulb down.

Steven Gorsky

------------------
Projectionist

Disclaimer:
Anything expressed in this post is my personal view/opinion, and not necessarily the view of the company for which I work.
Any technical questions are for my personal knowledge only.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 09-26-2000, 08:53 PM:

Our Telex's cut off just like the Kodaks and they're bulbs last upwards of 60 days usually compared to 6-20 for the Kodaks.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-26-2000, 09:29 PM:

I remember that somebody did some research on the cooling vs. lamp life thing.

It came out that forced cooling actually shortened lamp life. If the lamp is force cooled there are many more exansion / contraction cycles on the filiament and envelope causing more stress and evental failure. It was said that, if you can, you should let the lamp cool naturally.

If I can find the research again I'll share it.

Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 09-28-2000, 10:37 AM:

Where I'm currently working, we have a Xenon slide projector which uses medium format glass slides. Because the slides flip over as they change, there is a 'dissolve' effect.

During the session the xenon runs on a standby current of about 40 amps and runs on about 60-70 amps from memory...I think it's a 1600W bulb...

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 09-28-2000, 06:27 PM:

FYI, we have Ektagraph III a's.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 09-28-2000, 07:16 PM:

I have a load of III-A's too. Also a bunch of 4600's that are good.

We have several Navitar high brightness modules that have given excellent service for at least 10 years. We have 5 AMT series Ektagraphics that are workhorses and have never given any trouble of any kind. The AMT's timers are decent. Sometimes the slides will change every 15 seconds, then every 12 for awhile. No problem for me, though.

As for cooling the lamps, when the show is over, we simply turn it off.
We buy Apollo EXR lamps and get good service with them. The GE's and Wiko's and Ushios last no longer and cost quite a bit more.

I constantly hope that I won't have to do any real work on one of our Ektagraphics. Just replacing the fan in one was a real joy

There is a xenon Ektagraphic at the Falls Theater in Brevard, NC.

The slides are bright.

The slide image is noticably smaller than the movie image for the reason mentioned earlier. The automation lowers the power on the lamp while the Cinemeccanica V8 is running.

We had a few Telex. I hated them. They all went away.

No, I didn't help them die. They did it themselves!

{The previous commentary is not a suck-up to Kodak. }

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 09-28-2000, 10:32 PM:

Wow Bruce, I'm not saying your lying, but we have had completely opposite experiences with slide projectors

As far as modifications done to the Kodak's I have, no idea. I don't do the work on them, C&A gives me an address, I send the broken ones there.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 09-29-2000, 06:46 AM:

Dustin, the owner of my company will back me up. He loves the Ektagraphics.

We do have one that is dead, though.
We used it for parts when we needed the fan... It was the only one that didn't have auto slide focus. We never used it. Customers hated having to focus their own slides (wah!) So, it becames "parts."

My boss buy new parts? Ha ha ha ha!!! Biggest tightwad on the planet. Thats why we are using ten year old machines!

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 09-29-2000, 08:08 AM:

"...10 year old machines..."
You see, all of mine are under 10 years old, some are only 3 years old. Maybe there's something in the manufacturing that has changed? Or maybe I got a batch of lemons?

Another question for you, how many screens do you have and do you run afternoon matinees?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-29-2000, 08:25 AM:

As noted, modifying the projectors (as many evidently do) may make them less dependable. Removing heat filtration, or using non-standard lamps, may increase the heat enough to shorten component life.

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 09-29-2000, 09:31 AM:

Biggest problem I have had with any Kodak slide projectors have been unmodified ones that forget how to auto-focus and run the focus motor until the lens falls out! I've been using Kodak slide projectors for 7 years in various configurations with (otherwise) good results. I have several bergen 1600W xenons and Buhl 1200W halogens shooting through Ektagraphic I 's that are no worse for the wear. Navitar bright light modules look really nice, but lamp life is in the 20 hour range.

I always liked the Eiki (or Elmo?) presentation projectors with the auto-bulb change. When one bulb burns out it automagically switches to the backup and a little red flag pops out of the top to let you know its time for a new one.

Using carousels with the clear plastic covers instead of a center ring keep the moving parts of the projector really clean internally.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-29-2000, 09:38 AM:

Thanks, Tom. Did something about the slides "fool" the autofocus sensor? Or did the circuit just fail?

Good suggestion on keeping on the tray dust cover.

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 09-29-2000, 09:55 AM:

On Ektagraphic IIIAMT's that I have (unmodified) the shutter fools the projector into thinking the slide is horrendously out of focus. I end up turning on autofocus after the first slide is on the screen and everything works OK. On really old Ektagraphic I's (1970s) I'm pretty sure there's a transistor that eventually fails and either defeats autofocus or latches it on. I've just defeated the motor on these ...I've gotten my money's worth at this point!

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 09-29-2000, 12:39 PM:

Dustin: I'm not using my Ektagraphics in a theater (Oh, THATS why you like them...

)

They are rented daily to some of the most equipment operation-challenged people that I have ever seen. I have seen EXR lamps jammed into the lamp slot so badly that the socket disintegrated. The fan incident that I mentioned earlier happened when someone jammed a Bic pen into the blades because the fan was too loud to hear the speaker! (Yes, we charged the group $$$, and their slides were cooked)

Sometimes I wonder about new versions of older machines. Has Kodak cut corners with the newer Ektagraphics, or are they still built the same way they were when mine were built?

I had one many years ago that would toss out the lens after it got hot. I figured it was because of the boring slides that it was running. There was a leaking transistor on the sensor board. That and the fan are the only things I've had to do to one of these critters.

We own a total of 30 machines, and there are times when all of them are out on rentals. They always carry a spare lamp in the case, and all of our slide trays have the plastic covers. We dont use the lock rings.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-04-2000, 01:52 AM:

Oh well,
If there has to be slide projectors there should be a "This Theater Uses FilmGuard" slide stuck in place every now and then.
Mark

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 05-31-2001, 08:34 AM:

I finally got around to servicing some of our Ektagraphic III's that have autofocus problems. The mechanism is a clever little solar cell that receives light from the lamphouse bounced off the slide. If light hits the left side of cell a + voltage runs motor in, if it hits right side - voltage runs motor out. When it hits the middle or shutter is in place no voltage results b/c slide is in focus.

You need special Kodak tools to adjust the mechanism but it only takes a few minutes once you get good at it. If you have a lot of these at your multiplex it may be worth it to get the service manual and the tools.

Posted by Will Morrow (Member # 792) on 05-31-2001, 12:13 PM:

Funny thing, this past week, my projector count went from 11 Victoria IV's to 22 total projectors. Oh yeah, the new ones are new Kodaks, but guess which ones are a bigger pain in my A$$? Also, don't you think that if projector number doubles, so should the salary of the Projection Director?

Just a thought.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-31-2001, 12:17 PM:

Will: If you mean you are having problems with all eleven NEW slide projectors, I suspect your problems may be with the slide mounting or the slide trays. What kind of problems have you been having?