Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Isco Vs. Schneider ... what's your vote?

This is topic Isco Vs. Schneider ... what's your vote? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-25-2000, 12:27 AM:

We're adding a couple of screens due to open February and we've just received the quote from the supplier. On it, they have supplied a cost for Isco lenses.

My question is...which is the best performer right now and which would you recommend? They tend to see-saw a little, don't they? Sometimes it's Isco...sometimes it's Schenider that's the best at that moment.

What do you guys think?

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 09-25-2000, 12:31 AM:

They're both top performers. It's a tie, but I lean towards Schneider.

Posted by Martin Frandsen (Member # 74) on 09-25-2000, 01:22 AM:

ISCO HD-Studio / Blue star.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-25-2000, 01:39 AM:

I say it's pretty much a tie except that Schnieder has those oddball sizes like 42.5mm!!! It's been awhile since I checked out lenses though. Has ISCO started offering those? What's the shortest lens available right now? Isn't it 22.5mm?

Posted by Martin Frandsen (Member # 74) on 09-25-2000, 01:53 AM:

There is a Ultra MC 22mm avalibel.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 09-25-2000, 07:55 AM:

Schneider

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-25-2000, 08:06 AM:

You won't go wrong with either brand. Sometimes I'll go with one over the other because of either a size I need, and f-stop or sometimes it is just cost.

ISCO offers several different grades of lenses. Schneider has 2.5mm increments in the smaller sizes. ISCO has f/2, f/2.4 and f/2.8 lenses, Schneider has just f/2 (except above 140mm due to the 70.6mm barrel constraint).

ISCO definately wins on the anamorphic attachment...the Blue-Star is second to none.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Paul Cunningham (Member # 501) on 09-25-2000, 08:37 AM:

John, is your quote from GU?

They installed our last 2 screens, all ISCO lenses, one of the scope lenses is not matched properly, you can either focus the top or bottom but not both. Both screens have the exact same throw and angle and the other lens is fine.

I'm not sure if it is GU's fault for not giving us the proper one or our fault for accepting it and not demanding a better one.

Otherwise they are very good.

The Olympics are nearly over, we had people coming out midway through a movie tonight to see if Cathy Freeman had won.

Paul

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 09-25-2000, 11:14 AM:

I have to vote for Schenider(if I had to) but both ISCO and Schenider are excellent lenses, so either way, you can't go wrong.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-25-2000, 12:18 PM:

I'd go for Isco primes and Schneider anamorphs, the latter especially if any of your new screens has a particularly short throw.

Posted by Ari Nordström (Member # 288) on 09-25-2000, 07:01 PM:

We use Isco's for every format and I really have nothing to complain about.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-25-2000, 07:08 PM:

Having shown a lot of movies with a pair of Kollmorgen Super Snaplights, I'd recommend just about anything else.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 09-25-2000, 08:22 PM:

Ah lak Wollensaks!

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Better Projection Pays!

Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 09-25-2000, 08:25 PM:

John, have used both Isco and Schneider and find them both good lens.At the moment I am useing the latest Isco lens and find that they are a tad better than Schneider.On our large maxi screen the focus and depth of field is perfect which is good considering the size of the screen,so I think I would lean slighty towards Isco on this one.

.
Paul,Saw that event with Cathy,It was great,she done Australia proud.Go Aussies

Stephen

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Posted by Nick Perry (Member # 361) on 09-26-2000, 02:08 AM:

I would have to go for Schneider. Their Variable Prime lenses are very impressive also!

Posted by Christos Mitsakis (Member # 143) on 09-26-2000, 03:22 AM:

We use mostly ISCO here, especially in new installations, and of course in upgrades of older booths but a couple of Schneiders I run into once were exceptional both in construction and performance

Regards from Greece,
Christos.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-26-2000, 10:31 AM:

The new ISCO red serries are the best in there focal length range for getting the most light out

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-26-2000, 02:32 PM:

Both are excellent lens manufacturers.

In reality, each focal length is a slightly different design, and the film curve in the projector gate is a factor, so you should really compare lenses from different manufacturers in your actual situation, using lenses of the same focal length. The SMPTE 35-PA (RP40) is the primary test tool (resolution, field flatness, chromatic aberration, flare, etc. are easily evaluated). A reel with really critical picture content (contrasty, lots of color, lots of sharpness detail) should also be projected with each lens to compare picture quality.

Doing this test, you may find that one lens is better for a curved gate or curved screen, and another would be the better choice for a straight gate or flat screen. Or one lens may be better for a large lamp (more heat deformation of the film)and the other preferred for a medium sized lamp.

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-26-2000, 03:17 PM:

It's ashamed the two companies don't offer 7 day "loaner" lenses to decide between the competition.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-26-2000, 03:28 PM:

Many equipment dealers do offer loaners to try, if they have them on hand. But you damage -- you buy.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 09-26-2000, 04:24 PM:

That's true; we've "auditioned" lenses many times in the past. One guy I know would get three: the size he thought it should be; one size bigger; and one smaller.)

I developed a methodology for our company to select lenses, and no longer need to do that.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-26-2000, 05:42 PM:

For the ultimate scope presentation you can't beat the Isco Blue Star 6 element lens. Its tack sharp! Have used it on Dailies a couple of times and you thought you were watching stuff that was shot in 65mm. An absolute huge difference. So huge you don't think you're watching scope.
For normal every day scope lenses I prefer the Schneider integrateds. They have the best lens adjustment and lens lock setup in the buisness. All other integrateds have certain features that allow the focus(actually astigmatism) adjustment to be thrown out quite easily into left field by some unknowing usher or candy girl.

For flat lenses it depends on your budget. Gord is right on the new Isco red lenses. My next choice would be Isco Ultra Star lenses then the standard Isco and Schneider would come next.

If your boss has the bucks always go for the best though.
Mark

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-27-2000, 06:09 PM:

Does Isco have a website?

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-27-2000, 06:12 PM:

Found it...
http://www.iscooptic.de/english.html

Posted by Frank Prete (Member # 627) on 09-28-2000, 12:42 AM:

All,

Recently we upgraded our screens at some of our older loocations. For both flat and scope images Schneider lenses were used. For the flat image we installed the variable primes! These lenses are ace. Being able to tailor the widescreen image to suit you screen/throw combination if a fantastic idea. For thoes who haven't heard of them, the variable primes are prime lenses that can be varied. The range may be something like 34.2 - 36.8. Whilst this may not seem like much, as long as you get your calculations correct, you can't go wrong. Definately worth a look.

Paul, with regard to your dodgy C/S lens, could it be the throw setting has not been correctly set? I think there is some info kicking about on how to set these.

Frank.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 09-28-2000, 06:13 AM:

John,

Year ago I worked at the Forum here in Melbourne, fabulous theatre with Cinemeccanica Victoria 10's. Almost every feature was 70mm. For the Melbourne Film Festival one year brand new Schneiders were put in for 35mm and the change was unbelievable! The picture was razor sharp.

In recent years, our circuit used Isco and they are definately a quality lens, but we made the move to Schneider and they are a little better throughout most of the range.

Lenses do only have a finite life and if you have not had new bottles put in for about 15 years, whack in a couple of Schneiders and the difference will amaze you!

David

Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 09-28-2000, 12:48 PM:

Hard to say. I prefer Isco, as trhey tend to look more contrasty than Schneider. But a friend of mine recently made a comparison, Isco new "red barrel" series vs. the latest Schneiders, tested with my PSA and contrast measurement tools, the Schneider was a little ahead. (Both used on Kinotone FP 30E, 5 kW Xenon w/ 340 mm mirrors)

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-28-2000, 04:39 PM:

Stefan:

I am curious. Did the "Red" barrel ISCOs (the Ultra*Star HD Plus) lenses live up to their claim on more light as compared to the Schneider?

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Nic Margherio (Member # 273) on 09-28-2000, 11:07 PM:

Paul Cunningham - I don't know what type of projector or gate design you have but I had a similar problem with one of my machines that I thought for months was a bad lens (or poorly rigged screen) Turns out it was more of a gate alignment problem than anything else. By adjusting the entire gate assembly (on a Simplex Millenium) I was able to achieve a much better focus on screen. It was exerting uneven tension top to bottom on the film and was causing the very conditon you describe. Just something you may want to try.

Posted by Martin Frandsen (Member # 74) on 09-30-2000, 09:08 AM:

Looks like it's a 50/50 to which lens brand people prefer.

Posted by Frank Prete (Member # 627) on 10-01-2000, 12:24 AM:

Also looks like you may end up with what is cheaper at the time...

Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 10-01-2000, 02:41 PM:

Steve, the red barrel Isco lens did not deliver more light and uniformity than the recent Schneider, according to my friend. At least with the test setup (Kinotone as described before.) I am going to see the lens designer at Isco, and we will discuss the optical design. Maybe, with another mirror / projector combination, they might have advantages. The PSA 200 really proved to be very helpful in doing theese tests. We will undergo more investigations soon.
The best combination I have personally used was Blue Star anamorphic with 70 mm 8 perf base lenses from Isco.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-01-2000, 07:26 PM:

Stefan:

Thanks for the reply. I was most curious since you mentioned you use Kinoton. The way I understand the HD PLUS lens is that it achieves the improved light by having the acceptance angle conform to light coming out of the lamphouse so the lamphouse reflector is a major element in the whole process.

I have received a report of someone using the Strong Super Lume-X lamphouse and the light improvement was substantial, particularly in the corners...the natural hotspotting was substantially diminshed.

I have used UltraStar primes with the BlueStar as well as the Schneider Super Cinelux line of lenses with the Blue Star and in all occurances it was a great success. Unlike other anamorphics, the Blue Star doesn't seem to cost you any resolution. It is simply great.

I will agree that the Schneider Integrated anamorphics are also quite good...I wish ISCO would also make their integrated anamorphics as attachments rather than "integrated"...then make a Blue Star with it.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 10-02-2000, 10:54 AM:

Hmm... Once again I'll step in lightly here, and you guys all know where I am and who I work for, okay?

The match of lenses and reflectors does make a significant difference in SYSTEM performance. Not just alignment, although that can make a huge difference, but in the components and how they match up as well. I have not had the opportunity to "play" too much with the Kinotone stuff, so I am not familiar with its optical characteristics. Guess I better find one somewhere near me and explore a bit. Any volunteers?

My results with the PLUS lenses have been very positive, overall. I can only speak for what I've seen and worked with, of course, and that goes for my equipment and a little of the competition that's out there.

I have yet to install a PLUS in place of a standard Ultra-Star * HD and not see an improvement in performance, both in overall light throughput and especially in distribution. By fine-tuning the system's primarily alignment, whatever gain I get from just replacing the lens can be further improved, sometimes by a LOT. Some of the numbers in some places have been really exceptional.

What I notice with the PLUS is a significant improvement in the center, and a BIG increase in distribution, both on the sides and in the corners of the picture.

Now, that's mostly using US-designed optical systems and, again, I've not had the opportunity to test in a Kinotone-equipped house.

Any other disclaimers I should throw out there?