This is topic History of the Intermittent in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Matt Ashburn (Member # 573) on 10-01-2000, 02:28 PM:
 
Does anyone know where I can find information on the history of the problems Edison encountered while designing the motion picture projector? After watching Tim Reed's video from the videos section I learned that the intermittent was "the mechanism that eluded Edison in his quest," but I am having some problems finding souces of information.

I am required to do a project on any engineering problem of my choosing, along with the solutions, for a class I'm taking (I am an engineering student at the University of Virginia). Being a projectionist with a love for film, I decided on this topic. Any help or direction is appreciated.

Matt Ashburn
Hollywood Cinema
 


Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-01-2000, 03:06 PM:
 
I'm not sure where I read this, but apparently the geneva-type intermittent was originally designed for motion-picture camera use (as well as projectors) and that the claw-type movement that is now used in cameras (and 16mm portable projectors, etc.) was a later innovation. I wish I could remember the source for this information, though...
 
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-01-2000, 05:43 PM:
 
This is one of my favorite subjects!

Actually, Edison never came up with a workable projector on his own, because he couldn't get the intermittent right. He also thought the idea of projection before a large crowd was silly, when peep show machines, used by a single spectator at a time, could be sold instead. The kinetoscope peep machine had no intermittent, only a rapidly-revolving shutter with a very small opening, spinning before the moving, illuminated filmstrip.

Public demand, however, forced Edison to reconsider his stand against projection, and he promised he would invent one.

The Vitascope, the first "Edison" projection machine, was in reality Thomas Armat's projector, which featured an intermittent movement (this particular one, I believe, had a beater movement--but his next machine used a geneva movement). Edison bought the machine because he was overdue on his promise to deliver a projector, and he could not come up with one that worked. Armat's interest in selling was in getting the machine mass-produced. As he often did on things he had no part in, Edison took full credit for the invention of the machine. Edison later built his own version of the Vitascope and cut Armat out of the business. Armat then built a geneva machine that ran circles around Edison's projector.

Thomas Armat has largely been overlooked by history, save for some old-timer projectionists who know the truth; in favor of crediting the better-known Edison with the creation of motion pictures (in reality, only partially true).

The best over all source for the history of motion pictures is Terry Ramsaye's "A Million and One Nights". This was originally a huge two-volume work, first published in the late twenties... before sound. Many of the original pioneers, who were still alive while the book was being written, were personally interviewed by the author, including Edison.

It's the standard reference work on motion pictures up to that time, and has been reprinted several times over the years. The book's over 800 pages long! It's long out of print, but you may be able to find a copy at the local public library (or state interlibrary loan program); and certainly, at a university library. Every so often, you'll see a worn out copy on ebay. Be prepared to pay as much as $100 for a fair copy.

BTW, the man who designed all of Edison's early motion picture camera equipment (and who wanted to build a projector, too) was William Kennedy Laurie Dickson, an employee of the Edison shop... he was the true inventor of movies, if there ever was one.

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Better Projection Pays!


 


Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-01-2000, 06:15 PM:
 
Also, look for the video series, "The Edison Effect", which ran on the History Channel a few years ago. The episode you want is "The Motion Picture".

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Better Projection Pays!
 


Posted by Matt Ashburn (Member # 573) on 10-01-2000, 06:36 PM:
 
Thanks, Tim! I was hoping that you would see my post. I figured that since you took the time to explain the geneva movement that you would have an interest in this subject.

I just checked the online catalog, and one of the library's here at UVa has a version with a publication date of 1926. The same library also has another record of the book with a date of 1986 (I think that one is a reprint of a 1954 version).

I'll check it out tomorrow and let you know what I find! Does the book include the problems associated with the projector's design?
 


Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-01-2000, 10:06 PM:
 
Matt. Glad I could help, and wonderful to hear you enjoyed the clip! The video is a segment from another video I was working on, so the shots leading up to the animation are a bit out of context.

The book is somewhat technical, yes, but probably not to the degree that you want. It is, however, the best source of material that's relatively easy to access.

Thomas Armat wrote numerous articles over the years, that delve deeper into the particular issues you mention, but I cannot think of a resource for those at the moment. Maybe old SMPE/SMPTE journals?

"A Million and One Nights" is probably your best bet right now, unless someone else has any other suggestions. It's full of intrigue, and would make a good movie on its own.

As far as I know, the content of every edition is identical to the original... I didn't know about the 1986 printing.. great! The latest one I knew of was circa 1965.

Let us know what you come up with on your project. Good luck!
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Better Projection Pays!


 


Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 10-02-2000, 02:31 AM:
 
quote:
The best over all source for the history of motion pictures is Terry Ramsaye's "A Million and One Nights".

There's a copy on eBay now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=451482346


-

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William Hooper
Junk drawer: http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/theater/3622
Theatre Empire: http://members.xoom.com/saenger.1
 


Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-02-2000, 07:59 AM:
 
Son of a gun, and it's at a low price right now, too! I paid $75 for mine!

Go for it.

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Better Projection Pays!


 


Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 10-02-2000, 10:23 AM:
 
I had read somewhere that Edison had a hard time designing a film drive path (intermittent, sprockets, etc.) that didn't ruin the film after relativity few passes. So he put a strip of metal along the edge of the film to toughen it up!
 
Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 10-03-2000, 02:53 AM:
 
Matt and Tim,

After the intermittant the single biggest invention was the loop! Think about the early projectors and how they operated without a loop - the film just did not last as sprokets were torn by the movement.

The development of the loop (along with the upper and lower feed sprokets) was a remarkable development.

I think it was invented by General Latham???

David
 


Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-03-2000, 05:58 AM:
 
That's right, the Latham Loop. Also, W.K.L. Dickson worked with the Lathams clandestinely, after his clash with Edison about projection.

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Better Projection Pays!
 


Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-03-2000, 11:55 AM:
 
More on the Latham's: http://www.cinemedia.com.au/SFCV-RMIT-Annex/rnaughton/LATHAM_RAMSAYE.html

And Armat: http://www.cinemedia.com.au/SFCV-RMIT-Annex/rnaughton/ARMAT_BIO.html

And a general history of projection: http://www.cinemedia.net/SFCV-RMIT-Annex/rnaughton/MAGIC_MACHINES_4.html

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
 


Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 11-07-2000, 02:49 AM:
 
quote:
The best over all source for the history of motion pictures is Terry Ramsaye's "A Million and One Nights".

There's another reprint up on eBay now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=485061695


Anyone heard from Tim Reed?


------------------
William Hooper
Junk drawer: http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/theater/3622
Theatre Empire: http://members.xoom.com/saenger.1
 


Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 11-06-2000, 11:52 PM:
 
I won the copy of "A Million And One Nights" that was on eBay a few weeks ago. It is the same edition that is listed on the newer eBay listing. My copy is in fine condition. I have just started reading it. Even the forward was interesting.

Hope Tim Reed is not in a bind somewhere. I know how it feels to load up and move to a new, expensive, location, and have the new job evaporate. I'm sure that Tim is in our thoughts....
 






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