Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: High-Magenta & Cyan Soundtracks

This is topic High-Magenta & Cyan Soundtracks in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 10-17-2000, 04:06 PM:

Can anyone shed any light on the timescale involved in the conversion? I remember reading somewhere last autumn that the conversion to high magenta tracks was going to be complete by mid-2000 (in the UK) and that cyan tracks would be phased in during early 2001.

The situation at present seems to be that labs are still printing silver tracks. The only high magenta tracks I've had so far have been from the Paris lab LTC, which seems to have gone over entirely (I haven't had an LTC print with a silver track since April). I've never, so far, received a print with a cyan track.

Does anyone know the conversion is taking longer than expected? Is the US further ahead than we are? And if the whole process has been delayed, is the reason the one I have long suspected, namely that cinemas are simply refusing to invest in LED readers and so the distributors, despite having issued 'convert or else' warnings for the last year or two, are not willing to risk the chaos that would result in phasing out silver prints against the exhibitors' will?

I know that a large number of British cinemas have not, so far, converted to LEDs. When I sent a print of 'Kadosh' on to an arts centre in Scotland, I got a 'phone call the next day asking if I'd had any problems with the soundtrack on it. As we've got reverse-scan LEDs, I hadn't, but the projectionist who got the print after me was trying to run it on a GK-37 with an incandescent exciter and a Gaumont-Kalee mono valve amplifier. Needless to say, she wasn't hearing very much!

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 10-17-2000, 04:15 PM:

Hi! As far as I know, here in the US, the
Cyan tracks will be initiated for the December 2000 releases. In fact I now stock Cyan 1000hz 50% test film,(made by Ultra Stereo Labs) and I have been testing systems that I service to see just how various readers behave with this track.
So far, a conventional incandescent type soundhead (exciter lamp)plays back with very poor results, IE: High noise over signal.
The early infra-red or non visible led sources are poor quality too, high noise low signal. The visible red leds are the best, with very little or no noise, and high signal level, however the signal is about 2 db lower than the high magenta or silver tracks (so far all pre-amps have had ample gain to compensate for this lower signal). I am going to be replacing several non-visible leds soon with visible reds to solve that problem, however I still have many customers with exciters and this test film demonstrates to them what will be happening to their sound soon!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-17-2000, 05:09 PM:

The cyan/high-magenta agenda is NOT being phased in December 2000.

There is supposed to be limited testing of cyan tracks in early 2001 but on a VERY controlled basis. Even that isn't definate. There has also been a report of a possible studio support of a wider release.

There is NO drop-dead date on cyan tracks and in fact they may NEVER happen and are measurably and audibly inferior to their redeveloped counterparts.

High-magenta tracks on the other hand are in wide use. They do degrade both exciter lamp based and infrared based readers down to the visable red reader level. Thats right, it isn't that the red led does so well with the high-magenta when compared to the other forms, it just helps red readers compete on noise and distortion. You gotta admire people that push a system that degrades performance. I was working a premier with Artisan pictures and they informed me that they don't like the response of the high-magenta tracks and had their prints restruck with conventional tracks (this was sometime in early August of 2000, I forget the title).

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 10-17-2000, 05:47 PM:

Steve writes: "A system that degrades performance"

-What about our common child of heart, 70mm ?
I sure did find it difficult, having to explain to people, that 3 front chanels - with dialogue from center only - should be better than 5 discrete ch's up there.
-goes for Dolby 70mm in common - Lawrence and other (othervise distinguised) restored versions in specific. -Opinions, please...

All this red light business - what is Your experience with old-old (b&w) prints on these readers...?

Per Hauberg

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-17-2000, 07:43 PM:

Degrading, perhaps a tad bit. But overall I wouldn't want to be the dealer/technician caught with his pants down that has told his customers not to change over to RED LED's if someone at the top DOES decide to go the Cyan route in a hurry for some strange reason. Since the RED LED will playback every CURRENTLY produced sound track its the wisest way to head at this point in time. Also the advantage and benefits of the reverse scan system in itself far out weighs the slight problems that the RED LED used with it introduces. Too many people make a big deal out of it. After all, at important locations we run digital MOST of the time now anyway so the very slight degradation that the RED LED introduces is not really much of a factor in everyday playback. Those that playback analog only will ultimately have little choice of what to do. There are really only two choices..... a RED LED reverse scanner, or the JAX light replacement for the exciter lamp. Nothing else reliable has been developed that will work.

As far as old track playback stands there are several that the RED LED will not satisfactorally play back. Certain unilateral tracks, certain variable density tracks will not playback or only marginally. There is a simple way to overcome that problem. That is by illuminating the sound track with a high intensity incandescent halogen lamp and having a RED dichroic filter that can be moved in or out of the sound track illuminating beam. This easily eliminates the RED LED problems. Also switching built into the preamp to make the source look mono is important for proper playback of these old tracks.

As far as 70mm tracks go and the restored films stand. In my opinion a film should never be changed from its original format except as when done by the dorector as in the case of LOA. Its that simple. As nice as panned dialog is it would simply present too many problems in cinemas today if done on a huge scale.
Mark

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 10-17-2000, 11:29 PM:

Steve, according to the 'implementation guide to cyan dye soundtracks' info from Eastman Kodak, and my knowlege of SMPTE work along these lines, the cyan tracks WILL be here very soon! Not to mention the governments actions to eliminate silver. The main thing is, as long as there is film...the red light will come into use, and I as a technician and supplier, do not want several hundred clients calling all at once when the first release print hits their theatres! I am sure John at Kodak can also shed a timeline on this...

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 10-18-2000, 01:38 AM:

quote:
As far as old track playback stands there are several that the RED LED will not satisfactorally play back. Certain unilateral tracks, certain variable density tracks will not playback or only marginally. There is a simple way to overcome that problem. That is by illuminating the sound track with a high intensity incandescent halogen lamp and having a RED dichroic filter that can be moved in or out of the sound track illuminating beam. This easily eliminates the RED LED problems. Also switching built into the preamp to make the source look mono is important for proper playback of these old tracks.

How about a penthouse Red LED reader feeding a delay, for rep houses?

------------------
William Hooper
Junk drawer: http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/theater/3622
Theatre Empire: http://members.xoom.com/saenger.1

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-18-2000, 08:42 AM:

A delay line would be more degrading, and more expensive than a simple change of the light source and a flip of a switch to turn the scanner into a mono signal source.
Mark

Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 10-18-2000, 10:56 AM:

I have been playing different films on a laser based red light pickup system, which is a third alternative not mentioned above.
I encountered either with Klangfilm-Tobis, Movietone, Magenta Movietone or Photophone recording any problem. The sound quality in overall was enhanced, as the S/N with older, scratched prints was superior to the tungsten lamp pickup.
I recently installed a Kibnotone projector in our booth with their retro-scan solution. It also workes well, but I assume due to inferior audio circuitry design (cell mismatched load) on the preamp board it degrades the analog sound with certain older tracks.
I hope to overcome this by eliminating the circuitry. My processor has sufficient gain reserves to do so. (ADSG)

Posted by Bill Purdy (Member # 202) on 10-18-2000, 11:18 AM:

If you will scroll down the page to the topic "Audio Tracks" and look at John Pytlak's posting you will see the latest official statement on the change to dye tracks. This announcement was made at ShowEast last week and further supported for me in my conversation with Ioan Allen.

------------------
Bill Purdy
Component Engineering

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-18-2000, 02:24 PM:

Hi Stefan,
If its the Laser Light from Japan that you are using be sure to keep a spare in the booth. They have lots of problems. several distributers here in the states stopped selling them.
Best,
Mark@GTS

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-19-2000, 09:50 AM:

The swiss made laser is vastly superior to many other red sources as it doesn't exhibit the sparkle problems due to the coherent light issue of reverse scan units
It uses an anamorphic lens to decolminate the laser and produce a very narrow slit
I was very impressed with the homework that walter had done in ensuring every machine (even obscure ones) had been desgined for
Also the test units have been in use for over 3 years and the Achain level has not drifted at all (after cleaning the slit optics with a cuetip)

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-19-2000, 01:12 PM:

How much does it cost?
Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-19-2000, 07:18 PM:

Lets see...

Per: I don't think anyone on this forum will deny 70mm's virtues and I'm sure there are several threads that speak about it so I don't want to repeat all of that stuff here.

As to the older films and B/W tracks. The red reader is inferior to the white light based systems. The red light system (as it stands now) is also somewhat noiser, especially with scuffed tracks. In Archival houses, we are not switching them to red readers as of yet. In those houses that do run older/archival films that have been switched to red (LED) based readers because of digital sound or projector upgrade, we have been burned, or should I say, the audience has been burned in every case by either near non readability or nasty scratching noises (scuffed track).

Mark:

I wouldn't wan't to be the dealer that scares his customers over, for what now appears to be, a bunch of agenda ridden hooey. Have you had to change out any of the LEDs yet? Wait for the happy face when they find out the price for those little jewels (installed). The type of change you are talking about hasn't and isn't going to happen on an overnight basis, unless the EPA sets a date. Not only haven't they set any date, they haven't even got this issue on the plate yet, and no indication that it is eminant. Telling someone to buy a red reader right now, or else, is simply a scare tactic by the folks with the agenda and the money to make.

Now if, on the otherhand, that red reader is coming along for the ride on a reverse scan reader, ok then. The gain in pickup quality (improved frequency response, separation, dolby tracking...etc) out weighs the noise, even in my opinion. Of course, an IR LED will also work with reverse scan and have better quality than the red LED will. A white light source with a reverse scan will have the best yet if non-collimated. I am merely referring to getting a red reader of any type at any cost to beat a phantom date.

When we get the red light source to the point where light scratches and scuffs don't scratch up the sound would lets talk about conversion to cyan...AFTER sufficient testing to show all of it's problems that will need to be dealt with....please no more polyester suprises.

As it has been explained to me by those that have looked into filtering white light for a red light, it doesn't work. Jack Cashin could explain better because he has tried it. As a joke at ShowEast, I brought in a typical GE (crappy) exciter lamp that I quickly colored Red with a Marks-A-Lot...scared a couple of the red light vendors, mostly got laughs though...Jack liked it!

John Eickhof:

I am a member of the SMPTE and on the P-3 committee and I started to take Mr. Allen to task over the cyan track agenda, to which Eastman Kodak is part. The information by Kodak on the cyan track is propoganda laiden and keeps changing, first it was 80% conversion to red light before pushing for cyan now it is 60% (it appears that they didn't get their mark) plus if you read carefully, the bolster cyan's merits but shy away from it's problems and cloud it with misinformation such as the high-magenta track making the red reader superior to other types (it still isn't). As to the government's actions to eliminate the silver...what action? If there was, it would be a rather cut and dried issue...the EPA would say you must stop making redeveloped optical tracks by such and such a date, and everybody converts by then...simple (use Freon as an example) but when I querried Mr. Allen about this possibility, the EPA hasn't even got the redeveloped track in their sights yet! So your statement of "cyan tracks WILL be here very soon!" can't really be backed up by fact. Just opinion and guessing.

William Hooper:

You actually pose a very interesting proposition and one that might be interesting to pursue. The quality of digital delays can be quite good. Kinoton is using one for their 16mm sound on their FP-38 series of projectors and it is some of the best 16mm sound I have ever heard.

Another problem that Mr. Allen presented while discussing the red readers is that our once standard sound offset seems to be wandering...Look at your typical basement reader system, if you have digital, the optical pick up has probably been moved to increase the delay to the point of possibly being objectionable, depending on your projector and reader manufacturer plus your auditorium length.

Stefan Scholz:

I personally have had miserable results with the laser scanners as used on the Ernaman. Some have noted high failure rate (I must admit, I have already replaced one unit that was less than a month old) but I have found them to have a horible response, poor light uniformity and lead to poor 2:4 mistracking. I have not tried them on old/scuffed films so I can't comment on their response there.

If you look at the companies behind the cyan track thing, you will find that there is big money to be made by it. Mr. Allen of Dolby labs just happens to be the biggest supplier of these little LEDs for the world...they would have a better lock than GE did on exciter lamps. Obviously USL is pushing cyan tracks since they have the relatively cheap Jaxlight, Folks from Kelmar and Component Engineering are OEM suppliers for new projectors and retrofits for many others. What's left are the laser light people (a comparatively small number). When you read the propoganda about the cyan tracks look at the sources and realize they have a lot to gain financially.

Who really gains by cyan tracks other than those listed above? Certainly the labs who can skip steps associated with redevelopment. Film manufacturers that would like to see their product remain as inexpensive to deal with as possible to prolong it's useful life as movie media. The silver in the release prints do make for a disposal problem. But here is the problem, the people that gain (financially), are not the ones expected to do the paying. How much do the labs and studios think they will save by eliminating the silver tracks before any legislation? If it is a lot, then, in the same vane as with our public schools, lets have the labs and film manufacturers pool together and come up with a voucher system (sorry, it's an election year) to get all of the exhibitors to get their red light sources...there are now several,comparatively, low-cost systems out there (Jaxlight, BACP's reader, CE's new 40 series readers and I'm sure there are others) all knocking in the same price range (heck Dolby gets a cut in 2 out of 3 of those). The labs/film manufacturers get a one-time pain and everyone wins after that, except the paytrons, of course, they still get a noiser sound track than they might have otherwise had;-) Oh, and I am sure with these BIG cost savings by the labs, we can expect to see release print prices to come way-way down! (I'm sure the exhibitors can count the savings now!);-) Then again, the exhibitors will probably just get to keep paying and paying.

I say, continue developing the cyan track as a precautionary move, keep improving the LEDs and other red light sources as well as improving the lensing used (new faster lenses reduce the light needed and lengthen the LED's life and are being implemented by several of the manufacturers). This is simply NOT the time to force the issue. The red light is too young and the cyan track is still not sufficently tested. I have been in converstation with one of the studios already and they are not behind the cyan track, at the moment.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-19-2000, 07:30 PM:

No Steve,
I'm not talking about scareing our customers at all. Many still do not have it, and I won't force it on them either. But they have all been told that the conversion will happen sooner or later and that there is much to be gained by installing the reverse system now.

When I say RED LED Scanner I mean LED reverse scanner. Anything else is a waste of money. IMHO the inferior JAX lights and Laserlights don't even enter into the picture of things. They are a very poor alternative. With the new C.E. scanner kits out the JAX light makes absolutely no sense at all, even form a cost standpoint. We'll have to wait and see how the new Swiss laser scanner does before I can pass any judgement. It may well be the best available.

Mark@GTS
P.S. The RED LED's alone generally sell for around 150.00 retail for those that do not know.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-20-2000, 08:12 AM:

Mark@GTS said
P.S. The RED LED's alone generally sell for around 150.00 retail for those that do not know.

Plus the engineers labour and travel costs to go and put them in

Also labs that use forward reverse printers ( alot of them do)are have a serious problem with crossmod distortion as the printer ramps up and down speed changing exposure

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-20-2000, 08:26 AM:

Mark,

It may or it may NOT happen sooner or later...the point that really gets me upset is the absolute scare that It WOULD happen in 2000 (I believe a USL ad and it didn't) and now IT WILL happen in January 2001 (it isn't going to happen then either). The illusion of some phantom government mandate is in the air when, in fact, none exist. To me, that is simply an attempt to scare exhibitors to go along with their agenda. Furthermore, the cyan track is being touted as a "milestone" in cinema sound...like it is somehow superior from an exhibitor's point of view, like Dolby Stereo or Dolby SR or any of the digital sound systems are as compared to their predicessors.

The $150 figure you quoted is probably on the low side (for end users), depending on your dealer...I've seen them from about $145.00 to about $180.00 and they list for $200.00. But using your figure of $150 That is roughly 15 exciter lamps worth. Would your customers change out 15 exciter lamps in the same time frame? Also who installs the LED? One really can't get the LED right without test equipment. The exciter lamp can be changed by the end-user...thereby making the LED yet more expensive to replace.

Again, I'm sold on the reverse scan reader concept, have been since the DP-70. I just don't like the shaddy way the cyan track thing is being presented.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-20-2000, 03:04 PM:

Steve,
I have never set a date in any of my customers minds. They do underestand that it could happen and probably will at some point in time. I'm pushing the scanners mainly for the gain in sound quality,. Be it red, pink, Blue, green, or purple light source.
Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-20-2000, 06:36 PM:

Mark,

You and I know each other too well for me to think any differently. You and I are in complete agreement. The key is the improvement of the reverse scan reader...going with the red led as part of the deal is a nice insurance to a potential situation.

I have never talked anyone out of putting in a reverse scan reader with any color light source, except in archival situations. Like every other dealer, I put in the new projectors with red LEDs. Furthermore, anyone that has followed my postings know I prefer basement readers; a sure bet that there is a red led near by for the analog and digital track. I do prefer the Cat. 700 with the EPT lamp vastly over the Cat. 701 with the LED.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 10-20-2000, 07:48 PM:

If I wanted to upgrade to reverse scan in the next year or so, would I be smart to order sooner than later and avoid the panic
(and possible shortage), OR wait a little and see how these Swiss laser units perform?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-20-2000, 09:07 PM:

Dave:

If you want to upgrade to a reverse scan reader in the near future, please do so. I, personally, don't think there will be a panic but I would let sound business decisions dictate when you should do your upgrade. Even now, just before the busy winter season would be fine.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-21-2000, 05:13 PM:

There IS one benefit to having a JAX light:

If for some SOME reason you want to go back it's easy. All you have to do is get the male Pheonix connector and rig it as a jumper. Provided your exciter supply doesn't need to be modified for the JAX light all you have to do is put in an old exciter lamp and jumper the preamp wires. When you want to go back to the JAX light just plug the preamp and LED back in.

I don't think the JAX lights are as good as a reverse scanner but if you use good shielded wires it's not that bad.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 10-21-2000, 07:56 PM:

If you know it's comin and you're gonna do it and you got the dough, why wait? It's kind like driven on the freeway. Some people stay in the fast lane till it's time to exit and then cut over 3 lanes at once and try to make it to the exit. Some people work there way over ahead of time so they don't have to make a last minute attempt at the exit. I like to do it ahead of time so I don't have to think about it anymore. One ways just a bit more conservative than the other.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-22-2000, 09:01 AM:

Greg:

Using your anaology with the freeway....

Your exit hasn't been built yet and it isn't definate it EVER will be built therefore, why are your moving over at all? You aren't going to be getting off anywhere!

To make your analogy work, you would have to have a date set for the exit to be finished at which point, you can then gauge when to move over (be it late or early). The people that have been touting dates don't have the authority to set such dates and are, as such, bogus dates.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 10-22-2000, 02:15 PM:

Steve
Please reread the first sentence in my post. There's several "Ifs" there. As far as "it" never happening... Seems like there's been several reputable persons, lately, saying that "it" is. Why would they all lie? My freeway exit story was just to illustrate different ways of thinking. I would think, if for no other reason, that a theater owner would want to make their analog sound system sound as good as possible. The reverse scan does just that. It also so has the advantage that IF there is a conversion to the new sound tracks, THEN you will be ready. Meanwhile your theater sounds better.

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-22-2000, 04:10 PM:

I think we will probably see DLP long before we see mainstream implimitation of cyan tracks
One person mentioned that they wouldn't want to console their custimers to wait and then get caught but dealers will probably have a lot of egg on their faces and loss of reputations if it doesn't come to pass

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 10-22-2000, 04:28 PM:

Yes, but on that freeway, there are several construction zones that slow things down. Some exits are not big enough to fit everyone getting off at the same time. Low bridges will prevent large quanities of readers from being manufactured. Guardrails keep people going in the way of industry. And, is the freeway really "free?" Besides, which.....

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-22-2000, 04:48 PM:

All you guys have to realize one thing. That is that the labs are run by the bottom line. If they can do something that saves them money, or eliminates hassles which cost time and money they will eliminate that part of it, or change it to a less hassle and cost method. That includes the redevelopement part of processing machines which are usually the highest maintainance part of processing machine operation. That alone guarantees that yes, there will be a day comming with cyan tracks, or something else, domimnating the field.
Mark

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-22-2000, 05:46 PM:

It may indeed be coming someday, but if I were a theatre owner and I had a choice between spending $800-1k per machine to "upgrade" my soundheads to reproduce tracks that don't exist yet (on mainstream release prints) or meeting my payroll/rent for the month, I'd go for the latter... I can't think of too many theatre owners who have "extra" cash these days.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-22-2000, 07:39 PM:

Scott,
Actually that cost you stated is way too high. A new C.E. scanner can be had for around 550.00 from at least several dealers. Since it does not take long to install I reccommend to clients to have them installed at normal service intervals and to spread them out over a year or two. We have been doing that for quite some time now. If you have a 6 screen and 2 or 3 service intervals a year the cost would hardly be felt. Likewise, for a theater on a shoestring, proper budgeting can make it affordable even when spread out over time. I can't remember ever going into a 6 plex and installing them all in one shot except for new construction.
Likewise, the main reason for installing one is for the performance gains(as long as you don't run old tracks). These are not small performance gains, but huge gains. Gains that perhaps your customers would hear and over a time help take you off the tight budget. Plus you won't be closing down your operation because you WILL be ready if the cyan print thing happens to make it's way into your booth some unsuspecting evening.
Mark@GTS

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-22-2000, 08:45 PM:

Actually the labs are worried about the conversion
There is only one northamerican lab that prints full reels as a loop with out shutdown
the rest use old BHP printers (or clones) that run the neg back and forward Since the printer stops to be reloaded after every reel it ramps up and down in speed
There is yet to be any solution to the issue of over 18% cross mod distortion that is found due to density changes dureing the speed change.
No printer head has intesity control fitted to the sound head printer
yes re development is a pain but the cyan issue is even worse
One lab told me they would rather have to print varriable density tracks than a cyan one
Also to note a red led will exhibit far higher level of cross mod distortion than a IR one or a excitor lamp on conventional tracks

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-23-2000, 07:10 AM:

>>"Please reread the first sentence in my post. There's several "Ifs" there. As far as "it" never happening... Seems like there's been several reputable persons, lately, saying that "it" is. Why would they all lie? "<<

Yes there is an "if" in there but your analogy hinges on that if, a flawed if.

As to the reputable persons....it isn't a matter of lieing, it is a matter of wishful thinking and deliberate propoganda to cause the action. These reputable persons have a lot to gain, financially, by the conversion so their statements should be considered quite suspect. Do you realize that the conversion to cyan tracks would give Dolby a better lock on analog sound in cinemas than Dolby Stereo ever did or will. There is Dolby's LED, Jax's light and the laser people. Look at the numbers of manufacturers using Dolby's LED. If that was your company, would you want to push for it?

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 10-23-2000, 08:11 AM:

Yes and somehow the better sound you get from reverse scan is a conspiracy as well.
Personally I believe that those manufacturers you are implying are driveing this conspiracy for profit are in fact providing a service and are operating on and reporting information rather than creating it. I'd check under my bed for large pod looking things and any communists that might be lurking there

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Posted by Tom Kroening (Member # 201) on 10-23-2000, 09:33 AM:

Okay so you are still running in analog with an exciter lamp.. what do you do? IMHO you should upgrade to at cat 701 SRD reader and a jax light adapter. With digital you will probably not have to use analog for anything other then back up. If you get an older print that sound better with an exciter lamp then switch that house back for that show! (Im not exactly sure what is all involved in putting the adapter in and taking it out but if its not that big of a deal then its the way I'd probably go.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-23-2000, 06:39 PM:

Greg:

>>"Yes and somehow the better sound you get from reverse scan is a conspiracy as well."<<

Not hardly. Now that is easily verifiable as to its virtues.

>>"Personally I believe that those manufacturers you are implying are driveing this conspiracy for profit are in fact providing a service and are operating on and reporting information rather than creating it."<<

You certainly are entitled to your opinion, as am I. Mine is based on continual meetings with those involved and continual observation. To think a business wouldn't try to steer an industry towards it's best interest is naive. That is what a good business does to boost it's market.

When evaluating data, it is a matter of questioning the source of your data and look at it in that manner.

I never said these people were evil just that I don't approve of the scare tactics being used like the coversion dates issued. When the committee says something to the affect that the EPA is going to regulate something out of existance and you ask when specifically they are going to do it, you get a "well they haven't done anything yet"(or some statement to that affect)...it makes me question further. If the cyan track was actually a superior track, it would be an easy sell...in fact, it is an inferior track. Therefore, why the push at this time when there is no legal reason to do so?

If it is just forward thinking, then lets skip the whole cyan thing and go straight to digital projection. That is more likely to happen and would be the most environmentally conscious thing to do as well.

Then again, running with film until digital projection is financially feasable probably makes more sense....just like the cyan track, it makes no sense at this time. It is inferior and should be kept on the back burner until such time (and that time may never come) it is leagally needed.

>>"I'd check under my bed for large pod looking things and any communists that might be lurking there"<<

Certainly and un-called for statement

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John T. Mellor (Member # 468) on 10-23-2000, 07:05 PM:

Even if they dont change to the cyan dye track the benifit of the red led is one that some don't quite understand . If you have to maintaine equipment and tune sound syestems you would see the benifit as soon as you do an A - Chain alignment. With the exciter bulb as hard as you may ry you will always pick up some crosstalk . With the LED the amount of cross talk is NIL . The next time you have an alignment done ask to see the diferance on the scope and you will see the result. For those of you that don't know the line between the signal from each cycle should be as flat as possible with the exciter it is almost impossible . Check a Dolby manual they have a good picture of how it should look.
If I can answer any questions please post
Regards
John

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-23-2000, 07:12 PM:

John Reverse scan is not the issue yes it unquestionably has superior crosstalk performance.
But the red light is an issue. The IR type will outperform the visiable red type in the area of noise and crossmod distortion. These are mesurable. THe high magenta track and the cyan track are the only ones that are optimal for red light
THe silver track and red light have much much higher levels of distortion than either a IR led or the old fashioned excitor lamp.
Also the red leds are ageing much faster than thought they would with achain levels drifting quite a lot compared to the IR which were stable

Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 10-24-2000, 08:12 AM:

I remember when I started working at a theatre that had the red LED's installed. I thought they were great, no more exciter lamps to die mid show. Then I started having problems with the LED's. They do fade (and not all that slowly, and I had several die. As we know, changing out an LED is not just a simple quick swap. After awhile I started to wish that I had exciters again. 24 theatres with LED's was difficult to keep up with, because I was the only one (other than the tech) that could change them. Anyone can put a new exciter in, but not everyone can be trusted to handle in LED properly.

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 10-24-2000, 08:45 AM:

With all of this talk about "reverse scan", Jax Light", "LEDS", "Laser"... I'm beginning to get confused.

As a soon to be theatre OWNER/OPERATOR, I'll be working with somewhat "vintage" equipment. I've got two RCA 9030 soundheads with dual exciters, and a Simplex SH1020 with a single exciter. All three have Kelmar stereo cells in them... but it sounds like they will all be outdated by the time we open our theatre in April of 2002.
Any suggestions for a drive-in owner??

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 10-24-2000, 08:46 AM:

>>"I'd check under my bed for large pod looking things and any communists that might be lurking there"<<

Certainly and un-called for statement

Steve
Un called for statement?
You're calling some people I know and like liars. You expect peopled to not get a little POed when you do this? I thought my response was pretty contained considering the accusations you're hurling

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-24-2000, 09:15 AM:

>>"Un called for statement?
You're calling some people I know and like liars. You expect peopled to not get a little POed when you do this? I thought my response was pretty contained considering the accusations you're hurling"<<

I never once called any of them liars. And what accusations? That the people pushing the cyan track have the most to gain by it? That is fact. In fact, I find them smart businesspeople.

And believe it or not, I have rather cordial relationships with all of them, even after expressing my concerns at meetings.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 10-24-2000, 02:25 PM:

Oh brother

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 10-24-2000, 06:13 PM:

Hey Barry, swap me for the mono cells I have, that way if one of your customer blows the speakers on one side of his car, they can fade to the other with no loss of soundtrack!!

That way, you're "crappy car stereo compatible!!!

Sounds great, you're well on your way. On another note, could exhibitors VOLUNTARILY switching to cyan tracks "en masse" be a contributing factor in the fight against e-cinema by making film even cheaper still to produce/run???

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Dave Bird

Posted by Frank Prete (Member # 627) on 10-25-2000, 01:20 AM:

Hey Gordon,

you said:

...I think we will probably see DLP long before we see mainstream implimitation of cyan tracks...

Mate, if people can't agree on a date to change one part of a piece of film, can you imagine how much harder it will be to get them to agree on scrapping it completely! I think the previous fourty odd posts proves that.

The same arguments will come up again - the studios win and does the exhibitor pay the cost etc...

With regard to changing your machines over to reverse scan set-ups, why bother at all with Jax lights or any other imitations. Get the proper units to suit your machines and in the process, buy reverse scan readers that can handle Dolby Digital. Sure they are not as stable as penthouse readers, but once they are in upgrading to digital if you don't have it will be easy as pie. Steve, I'm sure this ads more weight to the Dolby strongarming the market theory, but hey let face it - red LED reverse readers are a wonderful invention that as exhibitors we have an excuse to install. Cyan or no Cyan, I know that there are a lot more theatres in our chain that we will be able to run digital in as a result of the change. And that far outways any and all improvements to the analogue sound.

Greg, I checked under my bed. Whilst I didn't find any communists (the cold war finished a while ago), there were some strange pods...

Frank

The only 15 letter word that can be spelled without repeating a letter is uncopyrightable.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-25-2000, 10:27 AM:

Frank,
I totally agree with you on this. The reverse scan addition makes such a drastic improvement...be it with white, pink, green, or red light that there is no way one should bother with anything else. Either leave the Exciter lamp in there or go the reverse scan route.

With the new C.E. scanners available, the cost is not really a factor anymore.

Total changeover to DLP????? Probably not im my lifetime. I can see it happening in 3rd world countries though on a large scale as film shipment over there is a killer(Literally, sometimes).

Under my bed??????? An old Nagra Stereo recorder and microphones, a few dust balls and my dog Miko sound asleep. Definately no Commies, she'd attack them.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 10-25-2000, 11:39 PM:

Does a piece of film with an actual sound track (not a test or alignment film) actually exist at this time? If it does I would like to hear the alleged difference in sound quality. What I am thinking we will do is remove the exciter lamp, then install a small mirror in its place. Then turn the follow spot around to point at the mirror and drop in the cyan or magenta gel, INSTANT red light source, nothing to buy, and easy to change back. It seems just as practical and a lot less expensive than any of the systems discribed.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 10-26-2000, 04:04 AM:

Barry,

Your request has been a little lost and neglected amoungst the spirited debate here!

Don't worry too much. You have a few options. The easiest is to use a Jaxlight which simply replaces your exciter lamp as a plug-in. From that point you will be able to choose from many different after market retro fits for RCA - still a reasonably common sound head, we've got two in the warehouse.

You will find many cheap conversions for older style equipment - just wait until the critical mass of Asia, Africa, India and South America gets on board with cyan tracks. Not too many Simplex Milleniums, Christies, Kinoton etc in those parts. In fact most equipment is Simplex, Century, RCA and the local copies.

I would love to know more about the drive-in you are opening (re-opening).

Frank raises an excellent point, can you imagine the inertia in the world-wide industry when digital projection is proposed to replace film? It started 2 years ago and will drag on for the next few decades the way things are going. Can't see General Cinema, AMC, Regal, Edwards, Hoyts, United Artists etc rushing for digital in the next few years. Hell, most don't even spend enough on maintenance to replace the exciters every six months!!!

David

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-26-2000, 07:59 AM:

Bill,
You have missed the whole point!! Its the gain from the reverse scan pickup that is the chief advantage here. Not the color of the light.
Mark

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 11-06-2000, 10:23 AM:

Many thanks for everyone's input and sorry I've been 'silent' for the last fortnight or so. This is because I went on holiday, then came back to find my workplace closed because it is flooded. UK readers will know that York has just had its worst floods since records began (which was in 1657) - dunno if this has made it to any US newses yet. With the elections coming up I somewhat doubt it...

Anyway, our electrical intake switchgear is under 6ft of water and so we're closed for the duration. If they're not there already, pics of the flood should soon be posted on our website at www.picturehouse-cinemas.co.uk.

Cheers
Leo

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 11-07-2000, 01:11 AM:

I have been off line for a while, it is interesting to see how this discussion has
evolved! First, to Steve, It appears to me that you are well versed, however, it also appears that you do not have much contact with actual exhibiters like Mark and I do,
to further explain my feelings to LED (preferrably reversce scan) upgrades, I have to personally service over 125 screens in 9 states. I have been working with my customers
to upgrade their systems in a timely manner in order to save a possible 'sudden death' situation if and when the first cyan track does appear on the print. I do not have the time nor the manpower to immediately install 25-50 units or more in 25-50 different towns on that given friday nite when this would happen...I am concerned more with the overall quality of presentation that my customers give than the profitabilty of sale of these items. In fact, as a small
business owner, my profit is lower than the larger competitors due to 'cost-plus' practices and other things I dont wish to address here. I am concerned with my ability to best serve my customers and meet their needs when practical. It is also a pleasure to hear when they call me and say how that old 'mono' system sounds better than before with the reverse scan! Usually, the next call is for upgrades to stereo! I think this is what it is all about! Ultimately, the movie goer will benifit from my constructive suggestions! I think this should make my position clear! I am sure that Mark will
agree with me! Again, I too am dis-satisfied with the results I have heard now while testing with cyan film, the noise levels are indeed higher, but you have to take into account the added response of these readers.
Thus, the NR system must be adequate.
The IR leds are far worse as to noise levels, in fact the 1khz signal is almost buried
behind the noise!
Mark...Thanks for your input & honesty too..
let's keep'em on the screen! John

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-07-2000, 05:30 PM:

Well i also service about 200 screens and most of my customers are rather blunt on the issue. When the film is here they will convert and not unitl.
The IR units have lower noise level than the vissible red and on Silver based tracks they have substanially lower level of distortion.
The reverse scan is a improvement but to ram it through on the grounds that they are trying is wrong. I agree with Steve on this issue.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-07-2000, 07:04 PM:

John, I totally agree with you on this issue. It is a manpower thing to a great extent if the cyan thing does happen. But the reverse scan gains are far more than being ready for cyan as I am going to point out below.
Personally Gord, I would not want to be stuck having to install 200 scanners if it does ever happen. You WOULD not be able to do it and many of your customers would be dead in the water and then instantly hate you. Cyan tracks are not the main reason to change to a reverse scan unit. The real benefit is the increased sound quality. If this is not apparent to you just on listening then you need to have your hearing checked. Almost a full octave is gained in the hf and distortion is so much lower than conventional .47 mil optics that the noise difference between IR and RED is rather a moot point(except with cyan). With the extra bandwidth comming in on the high end there is also alot more being decoded into the surround track. This is all stuff that the re-recording mixers heard, and intended to be heard in the theater(hopefully). All of these gains are obvious to everyone that has listened to a before and after of both standard optics and reverse scan that I have installed.
I guess if you want to keep your customers from having the best optical playback available then you will just continue to ignore it and argue against it.
I will never push it on my customers either. All have pretty much asked for it to be installed and they have been far happier with it than the old exciter based stuff. For many exhibitors it is a huge gain in sound quality. With service rates as high as they are, adding a reverse scan unit for 550.00, one or two at a time, during quarterly service is not even felt by the exhibitor. But your customers with 6 or more screens may be screaming at you at some point soon in time.
Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-07-2000, 07:53 PM:

Mark,

I have pretty much said my piece on this subject but your point on "what if" they cyan track were to take hold needs to be addressed.

Just what do you think would be the fastest timeframe cyan tracks would be issued with the knowledge that less than 70% of all theatres are able to play them? That is, when a studio or lab would print the entire run with cyan tracks, be damned the outcome. With no EPA regulation pending, would that timeframe be the same or would it evaporate?

Selling reverse scan readers on their merits should be an easy one, regardless of the LED's color. The cyan issue, shouldn't be at this time.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-08-2000, 05:33 AM:

Steve said: "Selling reverse scan readers on their merits should be an easy one."

Almost everyone can agree to that .

Actually, the theatres that don't yet have digital sound are the ones that most need the improvements in sound that reverse scan offers, since all their movies are played by that reader. Except for the number of channels and channel separation, the perceived quality of a good Dolby SR analog track played on a properly aligned system with reverse scan reader can rival digital sound.

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-08-2000, 07:19 AM:

Yes Steve,
But what if..............
It is possible that it could happen. Anything can happen. Personally, I hope it does not. I feel the same way you do about cyan. But I won't have to scurry around from theater to theater if...............giving my customers excuses.........getting them back on screen again. Certainly they sell themselves just on their merits alone. Compatibility with cyan just happens to be a very minor merit of the red led scanners.
Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-08-2000, 08:36 AM:

Mark I think you are missing my point
The red LED will produce far higher distortion on a silver based track than the IR ones did
I have always stated that the reverse scan in itself is a noticable improvement but the red vs IR is not.
As for customers choosing to wait that is their choice especially since the canadian EPA is quite clear they have no plans to mandate a conversion.
Almost all the Canadian labs are not keen on the use of the cyan track as most of there prints seem to have problems due to the ramp up/down exposeure change in density that affects the cross mod distortion at the head and tail of each reel.
Remember that a large volume of the prints in the US are printed at Canadian labs who are in no hurry to see any change. They are even balking at print high magenta tracks.
Also the coversion rate in the world is far less than 70% and since most prints going to non northamerican venues are used prints from North America I can't see any distributor keen on the idea of haveing to do a print run for export or risk loosing that income (Which regularly exceeds the domestic revenue) because most of the rest of the world hasn't converted or has equipment in use that is non led friendly.
The reverse scan issue should stand on its own merrits not with a threat nor should it be designed as a compromissed solution to a risk that is rather vague at best

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-08-2000, 10:44 AM:

The printing exposure (soundtrack density) needed to produce minimum "cross-modulation" distortion on traditional cyan+magenta+silver tracks is different for red and white light readers. If it is optimized for white light readers, sound from a traditional track may be slightly sibilant with a red LED reader. If optimized for red light readers, traditional tracks may be sibilant on white light readers. "High magenta" tracks (magenta+silver) are more compatible with BOTH types of reader. Since the majority of readers in North American theatres already use red LED readers, labs and distributors are converting to "high magenta" tracks to assure better compatibility with all current readers.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-08-2000, 11:26 AM:

Mark,

Yes I understand your "what if" idea...and that was the point of my question...what if?

What would your best estimate of a manditory switch to cyan tracks given an EPA involvement. And then what would it be if there is no EPA mandate.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-08-2000, 12:43 PM:

Did Al Gore or George Bush win the election? That may answer the question about what the EPA might do in the USA.

Other countries and some municipalities are already putting restrictions on the use of hydroquinone (silver soundtrack developer) and the discharge of silver into the environment, and the movie industry is being pro-active in finding alternatives. Cyan Dye soundtracks allow much more environmental processes:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/newsletters/notes/june2000/silverSound.shtml http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/sound/film1.shtml http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/dyetrack.shtml