Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: WWW color saturation

This is topic WWW color saturation in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 10-24-2000, 08:47 AM:

While watching a print of The Wild Wild West. My wife and I both commented on the intensity of the colors. The blacks are very very black and velvety and the colors of things like lipstick etc are very intense as well. It is very reminiscent of IB Tech. Any body know what the deal is on this?

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-24-2000, 10:45 AM:

Check the edge codes and post the print stock type here. It's probably Kodak's "Vision Premier" print stock, which has a higher contrast and saturation than the EXR (3386/5386) or Vision print stock, and has some of the qualities of IB printing.

Posted by Inge Strand (Member # 604) on 10-25-2000, 03:32 AM:

Nope its not a vision print.

Its Exr 386. Kodaks best print stock ever if ya ask me.
Men in black was also printed on 386, both directed by Barry Sonnenfeld.

.Inge

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 10-25-2000, 08:27 AM:

The numbers on the side are
2383 145 190 0 24 19 kodak 1999
Thanks Scott

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-25-2000, 11:11 AM:

Those numbers represent standard Kodak Vision stock (not Vision Premiere). 5386 stock hasn't been used in a while.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 10-25-2000, 11:55 AM:

Hmmm
Sure looks different on the screen

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Posted by Inge Strand (Member # 604) on 10-26-2000, 02:59 AM:

I will check the prints again, we have them
both here at our archive at the Norwegian film institute.

Maybe they are using different print films in
Europe? Or do they make all prints in one lab.

.inge

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 10-26-2000, 04:12 AM:

Different labs can and do produce different release prints. Some companies pay for Vision Premiere on releases others do not.

Technicolor has been producing very limited numbers of dye transfer prints in recent years using an improved version of this process. Certain prints of Bullworth, Godzilla, True Crime and re-releases of Oz, Wind and Window were in this process. It does cost more and take longer, but it sure looks good.

David

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-31-2000, 10:16 AM:

2383 is Kodak VISION Color Print film:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/lab/2383.shtml

2393 is Kodak VISION Premier Color Print film:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/lab/2393.shtml

Kodak VISION Premier Color Print Film contains more silver and is formulated to achieve richer blacks and more saturated colors. It may be used for all (e.g. US prints of "Gladiator") or part of a release.

Color reproduction and tone scale are also affected by the cinematography. For example, slightly overexposing the negative will give "richer" blacks and more saturated colors, whereas underexposure tends to give "smoky" blacks,desaturated colors, and more graininess.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Inge Strand (Member # 604) on 11-01-2000, 03:42 AM:

I checked the print of "Wild Wild West.

It wasn't vision, it says 0886 where
it usually is 2383 or 2386

inge

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-01-2000, 06:55 AM:

Inge:

Your print is likely on SO-886, which was a "special order" product. It did not have the color and tone scale improvements that are in the current Kodak VISION Color Print films (2383 or 2393). Kodak VISION Color Print films also have improved resistance to static cling and projector abrasion, compared to previous polyester print films.

"386" was likely 2386, which was the last print film to use the old "rem-jet" technology on the back side of polyester base. The triacetate version was 5386.

For a comprehensive Chronology of Eastman Kodak Company Motion Picture Films since 1889, see the Kodak Motion Picture website:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/about/chrono1.shtml

Posted by Inge Strand (Member # 604) on 11-02-2000, 02:00 AM:

Since the SO-886 was a special order, what is
really so special about it?

Does it have a certain look that the premiere prints don't have?

inge

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-02-2000, 05:49 AM:

"Special Order" product designation is most often used for products that are not catalog listed, and have slight modifications in the way they are manufactured to suit the needs of specific customers. For example, a customer may need an ESTAR base version of a film normally manufactured on triacetate base.

A film developed for special applications may also be given "special order" status, for example, Kodak SFX 200T film, which was developed to optimize "blue screen" and "green screen" traveling matte cinematography:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/h2/sfx200t.shtml

Posted by Martin Frandsen (Member # 74) on 11-28-2000, 10:16 AM:

Does Kodak ''Vision Premier'' stock use the "bleach-bypass" printing process, or is that a different type? I remember seeing SEVEN and remember how the blacks where very black indeed and also the contrast was very impressive. EVITA and SAVING PRIVATE RYAN are AFAIK also on a special "bleach-bypass" stock.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-28-2000, 11:21 AM:

Both KODAK VISION (2383) and VISION Premier (2393) Color Print films have been successfully used with the "bleach-bypass" processes. These non-standard proprietary processes either reduce the bleaching or redevelop some of the silver in the image area, adding a silver image to the dye image. This usually increases the contrast, makes the blacks "blacker", reduces the color saturation and gives a "grittier" image.

One potential drawback of leaving silver in the image area is that the silver absorbs much more heat energy than dyes. So prints will be more prone to heat damage, especially with poor lamp alignment ("hot spotting"), poor heat filtration or excessive lamp power.

Here is some background information on "silver retention" processes:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/processing/skip.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/newsletters/inCamera/july2000/feat.shtml