Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: A new kind of cue mark? Or toughest cues to see?

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Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 11-10-2000, 02:03 PM:

Caught the screening of an (they say 'only') IB Tech print of The Thin Red Line last night at the Egyptian in Hollywood. This print had a type of cue mark I've never seen before. Translucent lime green. Except for one reel which had translucent blue ones. I take it that a printing matrix is being punched rather than the print master. Why? These marks are certainly less noticable in that they're thin (density wise) and have no edge to them.

But they're sure easy to miss (not that Paul Rayton did--he nailed 'em all last night). Especially in a film like this one with lots of jungle scenes or in scenes were the background is rapidly moving or has lots of busy details (the first reel marks on this print had been reenforced with a cue mark maker, but the rest were au natural). Given that most screenings are automated nowadays, I wonder if these marks are a new, less intrusive standard that we'll be seeing more (or less) of?

Second item (maybe a new thread). Anyone remember any films with particularly "tough" X/O cues, the kind where you really have to pay attention or you'll miss them? This film would get my vote on several of its reels.

Cheers,

Paul

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-10-2000, 02:55 PM:

My nomination for "stupid cue mark placement" goes to "Brassed Off" (good film, BTW). There's a reel (R2, I think) that has a fade-out between the first and second cues. Ugh.

Several reels of "The Graduate" have dialogue that goes right up to the end of the reel. This would be no problem with a brand-new print, but a ratty print that has lost several frames around each of the reel changes has problems.

I seem to remember that there was a problem with the R3->R4 c/o on "Saturday Night Fever," but I forget what the scene was. I'm pretty sure that there was a dark background with barely-visible cues.

"Elizabeth" arrived on eight reels, many of which had barely visible cues. I admit to having committed the "sin" of hand-scratching (thank you, Clint Phare) cues on a lab-new print...

There are probably others.

Posted by Brett Rankin (Member # 31) on 11-10-2000, 04:04 PM:

I liked those c/o's on The Thin Red Line. They were noticeable for the projectionist looking for them but they weren't as intrusive as a standard c/o.

As for the Thin Red Line screening, what did you think?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-10-2000, 04:38 PM:

All dye transfer prints have those colored cues.

Hardest to see cue marks? Right off of the top of my head I'm remembering From Dusk Till Dawn, as the final few seconds of reel 3 is loaded with violence (ala camera shaking, quick cutting and lots of clear frame flashes). The first set of cue marks are right on those clear frame flashes. Geez!

Stupidest place for a cue mark? Nothing beats those shots where an actor is on the right side of the screen delivering some dialogue and WHAM their head gets blasted with a cue mark. Yes, that's just lovely. Those marks will never even be seen by a non-projectionist.

This one gets the award for stupidest place for a reel change. From reel 1 to 2 of Heart and Souls, there is a fade to clear - changeover - fade in from clear. So while everyone is staring at a white screen (probably loaded with cinch marks and dirt), WHAM and there's this obnoxious cue mark! As if that wasn't enough, the light output is typically just a little bit different from projector 1 to 2, so the changeover will be noticeable just from the "white picture" as well.

Someone scratched in cues on the 70mm Titanic print I ran on reel 9. This is a dark reel change and right where Jack is freezing to death. Nothing quite beats those obnoxious hand scratched white shaky cue marks right there at a critical moment in the show. I guess the changeover jockey didn't have enough faith in himself that he would catch it!

I still vote to eliminate cue marks. Changeover theaters are a rarity these days and those fellas can scratch their own if they can't handle edge tape and listen for "clicks" in the gate. Visual cues (ala CPI's edge marking tape) also work well for watching the film come off of the supply reel as a cue. Cue marks are just not needed by platter theaters or professional changeover operators.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 11-10-2000, 08:40 PM:

To answer Brett's Q, twas an enjoyable evening--one of the more enjoyable ones out of many I've had at the Egyptian. Hard to beat the combination of a meditative film, appreciative audience (quiet, sat through the credits, nice applause at fade to black), a pristine print, and damn-near-perfect presentation.

Got there late and walked in during B/G Travolta's conversation with Col. Nolte aboard the U.S.S. Lane Victory. Was a bit surprised at the large turnout--the place was packed and I ended up in one of the worst seats at the Egyptian--the last row of the balcony. Which are fine if you "sit tall" but if you're vertically challenged like I am and there are non-vertically challenged people in front... Well, that'll learn me.

Not much to say about the film itself as I ain't no student of film, I just likes runnin' and watchin' the stuff and I knows what I likes. I'd call this one challenging--contemplative, episodic, not much arc to the narrative. Except for the battle scenes Joe Sixpack would probably be bored (and I did see a couple of people walk out about an hour into the story).

On to The Print. This was my first experience with seeing a complete recent production in IB Tech. From watching older titles I had an expectation regarding that "larger-than-life" IB Tech "look." While maybe not very realistic, that look is certainly very memorable, and well, movie-like (and on a side note, for the life of me I don't remember the cue marks on those titles looking like these did). The IB Tech look of this print was certainly different but I'm not sure that this was the best cinematography by which to judge. Maybe that is why there is only one IB Tech print of this particular title.

Gray scale wise, the print was punchy with plenty of contrast but to me a lot of the blacks ended up looking just a bit crushed or blocked up. Especially on medium shots of actors against a bright sky or open window, the faces were way down there, making it look like the DP didn't use quite enough kicker on the shadows. If I were riding a Spirit transfer on this one, I'd want to try to use a bit of black stretch.

Coloremetry wise, some of the shots had that old IB Tech look, especially in the reds and blues. The tropical birds, the dusk scenes, and the blue-washed bedroom shots definitely jumped out at you. On the other hand, for all of the shots of jungle and grassy hills, in only a couple of high-key day shots did the greens really stand out for me. To my eye (and in my Norelco PC-70 video days I was occasionally accused of being color blind ), the greens looked rather, well, ordinary. Not the old IB Tech look at all. I guess I should hunt down a regular print of this one and do a comparison.

Overall I liked what I saw, but who am I to say? I would like to see more current titles printed this way though. And hats off to the Egyptian! Sure, a couple of times I've seen some problems there (ironically the Egyptian had problems running The Egyptian a few weeks back) but overall that place gives absolutely great presentation! I think my membership there is entertainment money well spent.

Well, back to beating an ORC power supply into submission. Eight months to Anime Expo...

Paul

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-10-2000, 08:44 PM:

Worst place for a changeover well it ws in a porno film

need I say more nudge nudge

Posted by Brett Rankin (Member # 31) on 11-11-2000, 11:57 AM:

Paul-

Did you happen to notice a kid with a blue shirt sitting in front of you (in the Second to last row of the balcony)? I wonder who else was there.

But as for The Egyptian (the movie), what were the problems? I wanted to see it but my friends hadn't an interest in it, so we saw Raiders the same evening. I've only been to the Egyptian (the theater) thrice and each time they got a 10 out of 10.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 11-12-2000, 09:48 PM:

For Brett: Sorry, didn't notice, dark you know

. Got there late, and stood by the booth stairs with Dennis Bartok until a seat opened up at the end of the row.

As for The Egyptian at the Egyptian--I just chalked it up to it being one of those nights. Lots of focus problems. On every X/O the focus was out, would get racked in, then slowly drift out again. Kind of like what you'd see running X/Os with narrow depth-of-field lenses only more so. The projectors there are tilted way down so I suppose the focus could creep if they didn't lock it down. But they did not have that problem on The Thin Red Line (also a 35mm 'scope print) so I don't know what the problem on The Egyptian was.

The other thing I noticed with The Egyptian is that everything on that print was horizontally off center, favoring the non-soundtrack side. Credits and everything else shifted to the left, just like the Fox LD I have. I don't have the SMPTE standards with me as I type this, but I'll bet that with pure 4-track mag (not mag/opt) there's no optical track to protect for. Which means if one uses a 2.39 plate the extreme lefthand portion of the 2.55 image would get masked off. Or am I off-center myself here? Sorry, it's been years since I've run a 35mm mag print so I don't remember the aperture specs. But the image was definitely not centered. Curiouser and curiouser...

And for Gordon: Changeovers on a porno?! All of the porno I ever ran were one-reelers. Must do research... Titles! Must have titles!

Tailwinds,

Paul

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 11-13-2000, 02:05 AM:

I have "The Jade Pussycat" on laserdisc (1977, starring John Holmes) which has changeover cues visible on it. It also has some actual theatrical trailers for other porno movies on it, these didn't even TRY to get a green band!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-13-2000, 06:24 AM:

Paul Mayer:

You may be correct that they showed "The Egyptian" with the current 2.39:1 scope image area, rather than the original 2.55:1 CinemaScope area used for mag-striped prints.

I suspect the focus issue may have been due to some buckling of the film base, due to shrinkage or "vinegar syndrome". Mag striped prints are especially prone to vinegar syndrome if not stored properly, since iron can act as a catalyst for the degradation reaction, and some stripe binders were especially prone to hydrolysis.

I'm sure Paul Rayton did the best he could, given the age and condition of the print. We should look so good after 45 years in a can.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-13-2000, 10:05 AM:

paul most of the 35mm porn we had in canada was 5 reels long until the censor board screened it and then it was usually 3-4 reels long

Posted by Edwin Graf Diemer (Member # 545) on 11-13-2000, 06:48 PM:

And who can forget the 70mm prints of "The Sound Of Music", where one of the changeovers was in the middle of a song!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-14-2000, 01:54 AM:

The rumor floating around the grapevine is Universal is going to strike prints of "The Family Man" for this December's release in gorgeous dye transfer Technicolor!!!

Everyone remember to pester your booker about getting your print in dye transfer. For those who have never had the pleasure of seeing one of these special prints, you are in for one hell of a treat.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-14-2000, 05:57 AM:

I saw "Family Man" at ShowEast. Enjoyable film with "rich" cinematography, but the print shown at the AMC Pleasure Island in Orlando was not dye transfer.

Easiest way to tell a dye transfer print in the booth is the use of silver-only (no dyes) analog and digital soundtracks, that look dark gray, without any coloration. Colored cue marks are also distinctively different than normal prints too.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 11-14-2000, 10:50 AM:

Well, unless Technicolor has improved the shedding, I'm not looking forward to any dye transfer print. If it's the same as, "The 13th Warrior", it will look wonderful for about 2-3 weeks. Then there will be so many dirt specks, it will detract from the color. Even regular cleaning did not help.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-14-2000, 03:10 PM:

FilmGuard completely stops the shedding on dye transfer prints.

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 11-16-2000, 01:09 PM:

The hardest cues to see that I've come across so far were on a 16mm print last night...they were scribed into the base instead of the emulsion! When I checked the print I KNEW they were there...when I showed it the first hint of a changeover was the tail running through the projector! Arrgh!

Also just screened a Japanese 16mm reduction of a 1.85 print. The lab's cue marks were about the size of a baseball on a 12' high screen!

Posted by Mark Ogden (Member # 43) on 11-17-2000, 05:02 PM:

Actually as of this weekend, there's a new winner in the "most difficult cue mark to see" contest:

"The 6th Day", motor cue, R1

Good luck and don't blink. .

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 11-19-2000, 10:18 AM:

The "toughest cue marks to see" that I remember were on the 70mm prints of _Brainstorm_. The changeovers take place during the 1.66:1 masked sequences. So the cue marks are in the black masked area of the print. Black cues on black with an ever so faint yellow ring. These were very difficult to see.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-19-2000, 06:50 PM:

The changeover I dread most of all is 'Gremlins' (r4-5 I think) - during the scene in which the gremlins are watching 'Snow White', a motor cue appears on the screen they're watching, followed by the one on the actual print you're showing about 3 seconds later. The first time I showed it I mistook the motor cue on 'Snow White' as the actual motor cue, then misread the genuine motor cue (i.e. too early) as the over cue, and therefore ended up showing most of the leader of the incoming reel.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-19-2000, 07:31 PM:

If you are a projectionist who has been around the clock a couple of times watching a movie in the auditorium, did you ever get the feeling the projectionist on duty missed a motor cue? And come to find out he did? I have, many times. I never sensed the projector motor starting, even though that start-up could not be heard in the auditorium. Strange, huh?

Posted by Art Averett (Member # 367) on 12-19-2000, 08:40 PM:

One I can definately say is a re-release of Disney's animated feature, "Oliver & Company" back in 95 or 96. Reel three had no cue marks at all. I'm from the old school. Never trust a print, new or old, from where it came. The print gets inspected before it hits the screen. Another one was the second original "Star Wars" 70MM print released in 1980. Very hard to see the cue marks. Had to turn off the booth lighting. If you've ever seen some of the old MGM or WB technicolor prints from the 40's & early 50's, you'll see those type of green cue marks especially when they've been transferred to video cassette, laser disc, and/or DVD.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 12-22-2000, 04:48 PM:

>> during the scene in which the gremlins are watching 'Snow White', a motor cue appears on the screen they're watching, followed by the one on the actual print you're showing about 3 seconds later.<<

Funny, I seem to remember this scene being mid-reel, and not at the end, however you are correct that the scene is the end of a reel of 'Snow White' (but the tail that projects thru the projector is actually from 'Best Friends')

Aaron

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 12-22-2000, 05:26 PM:

>>however you are correct that the scene is the end of a reel of 'Snow White' (but the tail that projects thru the projector is actually from 'Best Friends')<<

I remember that, Aaron. Obviously, whoever last ran that print if Snow White failed to leave a reference frame on the tail, otherwise those Gremlins would have noticed when they made it up. (Waiting for 'slap' from Mr. President)

Does that mean that they actually wanted to watch Best Friends, and not Snow White? Incorrectly placed leaders and tails can ruin a Gremlin's night out. (Not to mention what a good food blender can do)

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-22-2000, 08:57 PM:

They were GREMLINS, not projectionists! Of course they don't have the necessary skill to properly join leaders or identify reels.

<SLAP!>

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 12-22-2000, 10:12 PM:

...ouch.