Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: What do you know about Victoria?

This is topic What do you know about Victoria? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001809

Posted by Dennis Tichy (Member # 709) on 01-06-2001, 07:23 PM:

A theatre owner recently allowed me a few minutes in a booth he no longer has in operation. The two projectors he has are Victorias---a company I know nothing about. The Victorias were gray and fitted with 6000' open magazines. They appeared to have been manufactured with no doors over the soundhead or projector. There was a turret for the lenses but no lenses. And it would appear that the Victorias do not come apart between the soundhead and projector.

Now, here are my questions for those of you who have experience with Victorias: Are they good machines?---Are they still manufactured?---Can you still get parts---Based on the sketchy information I gave you, do you have any idea what the machines might be worth. No sound equipment is included and I'm not sure I can use the Christie lamps.

Thanks for listening and thanks for your information.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-06-2001, 07:27 PM:

Victoria's are a cinemecanica projector made in Italy and there are various model that are numbered
such as Victoria4 Vic5 Vic8 Vic9 Vic10 VIc12
They tend to have a unstable picture
Some models are still manufactured Vic5 Vic8 Vic12
and others are not and in some cases there are no parts except on canablized off other machines.
Also because the optical sound head sticks out the back some lamphouses cannot be focused properly on them

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 01-06-2001, 07:31 PM:

You were looking at an Italian projector made by Cinemeccanica. The model is Victoria. They make a Vic5, Vic8, and a Vic12. Some people hate them. My only experience with them is that once you learn how to thread them it is very fast to thread. Brad has a link to their website at the bottom of the page under links.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 01-06-2001, 09:02 PM:

I've used Vic 2's and Vic 5's. We never had much luck with them (even new) and we had a description for them which can't be printed here. I would rather project from video.

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 01-06-2001, 10:35 PM:

Some people like to call them "Shake-ameccanica" projectors.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 01-06-2001, 10:40 PM:

Personally, I like the Cinemecannica V-series. It is a more modern design, and that is why there is no seperate projector head/ sound reproducer (intergrated design.) I had read somewhere it was called the Victoria series by the manufacturer, because it supposedly marked Cinemecannica's "return" to full manufacturing capablity after World War Two.

While I find them easy to clean and thread, and the ones I used did not break often, I must admit that they can be difficult to work on when something does break. Also, the parts are VERY expensive and can take a long time to get.

I don't know which models you have, but as a reference, I saw a pair of used, in good shape, V8's (their 70mm, top-of-the-line model) go for $4000 each.

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 01-06-2001, 11:35 PM:

The 'Woppoleeneis' as I affectionately call them are fine machines, with workmanship
resembling early american projectors, such as
gears fitted with taper pins! Large gear
surfaces, and other things like the bullet proof lens turret!(msot every other company has tried to copy) However, the worst feature is the tiny shutter and poorly designed film trap. They were also the first 'all belt' projector! The V-5. Parts have to be 'hand fitted' for the early models, (V-4, V-8, V-18) Thus a machine shop is a necessary tool
needed for repair. They are a good machine and are found in daily service around the world!! However, I still prefer the good old Simplex XL!

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 01-07-2001, 05:55 PM:

I work with two Cinemeccanica V5 MI. We had no mechanical problems during the last 2 year.
I agree with the "Shake-ameccanica" nickname...
How can this shaking be minimized? What are the parts that have to be changed or reviewed when a V5 starts shaking?

Bye
Antonio

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-07-2001, 06:26 PM:

There is a longer trap assembly from cinemecania that helps. I had the best luck by glueing velvet bands (the same strips used on the DP70) to the trap and that helps alot

Posted by Trevor Bailey (Member # 75) on 01-07-2001, 07:36 PM:

You should also be aware that if they are V-5s, you can pretty much count on replacing the shutter gear box too frequently. Most complexes that have more than 8 V-5s keep a spare shutter gear box. They also have a tendancy to loose their a-chain alignment...the most common guess at the cause is the film tale catching on the cell as it runs out.

V-4s are oil bath machines and will quickly turn into paperweights if the oil level is not maintained. All of the V-4s I have seen use 3 phase motors which are rather expensive to replace. Quite a few also seem to have sound issues due to the design of the sound drum - shaft - flywheel.

I would stick with a Simplex 35...

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-07-2001, 07:55 PM:

Good point on the A-chain alignment issues with V-5s. I've never aligned the soundhead on one, but apparently it requires repeatedly removing and replacing the sound drum and it doesn't look like much fun. On the plus side, they're easy to clean and the lens turret is nice if you only show two formats (and it is a pain if you regularly switch among four formats...).

I'm not a real fan of the V5, which is the only Cinemeccanica machine that I've used. I suppose you could do worse, but I'd take Centurys or Simplexes over V5s any day.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-07-2001, 08:30 PM:

On the shutter gear box issue that can be corrected. The problem is lack of lubrication.
they are filled with grease at the factory and sealed. After running for a while the greese is caked around the outside of the box not near the gears.
Two things that have virtually stopped the gear box replacement issue for us
1 fit a greese gun nipple in the top of the gear box and montly give it a squirt of greese
2 Mix STP with the existing greese to thin it so that it falls back to the gears

Posted by Alan Lyman (Member # 557) on 01-08-2001, 02:26 AM:

I work with V5´s every day,both new ones and old ones.,and I STILL like them.Off course the V8´s are better,but also more expensive.The v5´s are easy to repair,you can just send a new piece to the theater,and they can replace it themselves.A lot of other projectors,a technician has to go there to repair it.
For the V5,there is a new complete new gate assembly,with much more picturesteadiness.It´s a hole new design.The only thing is,it needs to work with their new
apertureplate changer.
The shutterbox,needs to be refilled every year,with grease.But also a soft start of the projector helps alot.The shutterboxes that we have broken,has always been because off too fast startup.
Cinemeccanicaprices in USA is more expensive
than american projectors,because there not so many of them over there.
If you put the original RED LED kit on a Cinemeccanica,you wont have anymore A-chain problems.

Posted by Martin Frandsen (Member # 74) on 01-13-2001, 04:35 AM:

I am a big fan of my V8. Those machines seem to keep runing for ever, as long as you poor oil in it! I have no problem with any jitter in the picture ( and i am not using the new gate! ) Why so many have problems with picture jitter i have no clue?

------------------
Martin Frandsen
Film crazy!, Big 70mm fan!

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 01-13-2001, 08:48 AM:

Many V8's do have a slightly higher jitter than other manufacturers when running 35mm. 70mm seems to be OK (similar to other makes.) I used to suspect that the reason is the flat gate and the intermittent shaft is not supported on the outside, like other makes (JJ's AA-II's , etc.) But, every projector has it's goods and bads.

Just about every part I have ordered fit with out any machining. But working on the projectors can be tough if you're not used to them.

They are made in Italy, and their techniques throw off some American service techs, who (unfairly, I think) bad-mouth the thing. For example, they use taper pins to hold gears on shafts, whereas America projectors usually have set screws. ("I don't have a pin punch to get that shutter gear off in V8.. stupid machine sucks!" Or, sometimes special tools are needed. ("I don't have that tapered tool to put the feed sprocket shaft back in a V9.. stupid machine blows!")

I also think the projector is made with generally tighter tolerances. So if a gear won't fit on a shaft, check that the shaft isn't rusty or mushroomed at the end before whaling on it with a hammer.

Scrutinize any projector, and you will find flaws. Cinemeccanica's are no worst than other.

Admittedly, the A-chain aligning the first stereo solar cells made for the V5,8,9's was/is pure hell.

Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 01-13-2001, 10:12 AM:

As I remember the Bauer U3/4/5 was issued before the Vic 5, so I assume theywere the first "neoprene belt gear" projectors, even though Vic5 is probably the most famous one.
I am not atotal fan of theese, but I have to admit the quality is generally oK. Even though I had to set up machines which had labels "Sorry, optical not aligned, Sorry, film path not aligned, etc", it was an oK job to do, and not really complicated. Of course Kinotones can just be set up, plugged into the wall outlet, and you're in business without fiddling.
With the minimum maintainance and care required, even Vic 5's are likely to produce steady and brilliant images reliably.
And the mentioned problems with gatetraps and A chain setup have been overcome with the current design. (Your cars don't have 6 Volt systems anymore, and if you own one, it's vintage.)
Only rewmainig problem is the nickel mirror with wattages up to 1k. It burns fingers and film, and should not be ordered.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-13-2001, 03:14 PM:

I think the Westrex 7000 was the first timing belt drive projector

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-13-2001, 05:04 PM:

Actually there were a hundred prototypes of an all integrated Simplex X-L-II that was all belt driven. This was a decade or so before the V-5. It also had two gearboxes thrown in just for the heck of it that had Super Simplex shutter drive gears in oil.
For those that think the Christie is bad, think again, it is wonderful compared to this contraption that Uncle Rube surely had a hand in designing. I had gotten one of these as a curiosity piece from Charlie Wolk a few years back and went through it and rebuilt it. I think it had 9 belts plus the two gear boxes!
Mark

Posted by Ben Stephenson (Member # 741) on 01-22-2001, 04:33 PM:

I work with two vic 8s, two vic 4 and a vic 5 and yes I have had some problems but never anything serious, I have also spent a year working with 9 Century Strongs and had more problems in that year than the three years with the vic's and thay are 15 years older. Spare parts are sometimes hard to get hold of and normally cost the earth but the quality is worth it ( Not what my boss thinks when she gets the bill for the parts .. ). Trying to maintain them is something of a challenge and the smallest job often takes hours but is worth it in the end.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-22-2001, 05:46 PM:

I work at an entirely Vic-5 cinema (five of the little darlings in total) - I've known better, I've known worse. Spares ain't cheap, but compared to the cost of the Kinoton equivalents they're a positive bargain.

As for Antonio Marcheselli's query about keeping the picture wobble to a minimum, there's no easy answer. In my experience, increasing the pressure on the main drive belt will give a slight improvement in picture stability, but at the cost of extra pressure on the shutter gearbox. Previous contributors to this thread have pointed out that they are prone to seizing, so for that reason high belt tension is not a good idea (not to mention the extra pressure on the intermittent unit). About a centimetre of play is the belt tension I usually set.

One suggestion I would make is to change the belts every six months rather than annually, which is the manufacturer's recommendation. Throw the secondary belt away, change the primary to secondary and put in a new primary. As an experiment I ran two mechs in the same screen, changing one belt at six months and letting the other go on. The machine with the older belt produced a visibly more unstable picture, even with the tension increased to allow for expansion and wear.

Incidentally, the small shutter blades might be fiddly to time but they're wonderful for anyone who shows silent prints. You can go down to 19fps with hardly any visible flicker, and even 17-18 looks acceptable.