Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Simplex XL Problem

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Posted by Don Anderson (Member # 397) on 03-14-2001, 05:30 PM:

When it rains, it pours. Here's my new problem. One of our XLs is making a racket while running. Kind of a clankity (sp) clank noise.This just started to happen within the past day or two. The framing knob is beginning to advance by itself too, you can feel it move while holding your hand on it.Perhaps this is related to the problem. The projector has oil in it. This is not one of the units that I have changed its oil. Any idea what it is, or where I should begin to look???? Your help is greatly appreciated as usual.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-14-2001, 06:01 PM:

Obvoiusly, you have a major problem. If the intermitttent is walking itself with a clankity noise, the movement itself might be getting ready to cease up on you. Roll the projector through BY HAND and see if you can find a definate bind when the intermittent indexes and makes a pull-down cycle. If it does, I think the movement is very ill.

There are some other things that will cause the movement to walk, but lets look at the obvious first. Something can be going to hell in the compensator, too.

Steve Guttag posted something about walking intermittent movements several months ago, and he said this:
*********************************************
<<Another cause of wondering framing, though it doesn't sound like it in this case, is the shutter compensator...if it is vibrating..the compensator can "tap" on the intermittent case and cause it to rotate. A really bad compensator can walk the framing around in about 15 seconds.>>

<<Yes the shutter compensator is driven off the G-1803 but the shutter compensator has it's framing rod and roller (P-1479 and P-1480 respectively) riding on the intermittent framing cam (P-1708). Depending on the strength of the P-1705 clips and the vibration transmitted through the framing rod (from a vibrating compensator), the framing rod will actually push the cam around.>>
*********************************************
I kind of wish more fellows would post what they did to clear the problems with the equipment. What Steve said above about a walking intermittent could also be your problem if the movement is ok.

By the way, is the shutter clanging on the housing? If you have a sprung cover, it can do that - and it could send one helluva shock through the gear train.

Posted by Don Anderson (Member # 397) on 03-14-2001, 08:08 PM:

Paul, no the shutter is not clanging on the housing. I just talked to the night shift manager, and he said the noise is getting louder. He's shutting down the projector as I type. I myself would have cancelled all the evening shows, but I'm not working. If you turn the motor by hand, it will make the noise on and off.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-14-2001, 08:26 PM:

Don - did you feel any binding when you rolled the projector forward? Maybe it is as simple as a loose flywheel on the intermittent if you felt no binding.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-14-2001, 08:32 PM:

It's pretty hard to describe noises over the computer like this, but can you characterize it a little better? Clank? clunk? chatter? rattle? knock? or even "Meep! Meep!...Zip-Dang!" (Sorry, I couldn't resist that one!

)

If it's a "rattle" or a "knocking" sound, similar to the sound a car engine might make when it's "deiseling", your intermittent is probably about to shit the bed. How's your image steadiness? If it's getting jittery, that's another sign.

Seeing as it's now Wednesday night, you could call-in for a replacement to be shipped overnight. It will go out tomorrow afternoon and with luck it'll be there Friday morning.

If it IS a bad intermittent and you wait another day the thing could die on you in the middle of a show on Friday night! You won't be able to call-in for a replacement until Monday at the EARLIEST! That means you'll be off-screen until AT LEAST Tuesday!

Don't let your managers stone wall you on this one! Do your best to confirm this diagnosis right now!
Yes, your managers will whine about having to spend $1,000+. Tell them to look at it this way: You're going to HAVE to spend this $1,000 no matter what. (Assuming it is the intermittent.) How would they like to make that $2,000? That's what they are going to LOSE if that projector is down for the weekend!

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-14-2001, 08:43 PM:

Randy - I think soon it is going to go WANG!!!!!

Don - I just tried to call you - phone was busy

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-14-2001, 09:38 PM:

No, first you will hear THIS sound:

http://homepage.mac.com/randystankey/.Public/Sound1.WAV

Then, YOU will make THIS sound:

http://homepage.mac.com/randystankey/.Public/Sound2.WAV

These are actual sounds of me trying to fix projectors!

Posted by Don Anderson (Member # 397) on 03-14-2001, 09:43 PM:

Paul, there"s no binding when turned.

Randy, as for the noise....it sounds like a car engine that is dieseling. I just got back from the theatre. The noise isn't any louder than last night, the night manager must have just moved his head a little closer to the projector.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-14-2001, 09:45 PM:

Randy, I am going to splice those two together...

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 03-14-2001, 09:58 PM:

Hi Don; Couple obvious questions I'm sure you looked at, but here's the drill. Certainly appears to be intermittent-related.

Oil in the projector is one thing. Is it being pumped and sprayed around? You should also be able to see the drip of oil from the catch tube assembly down into the intermittent.

Was the machine serviced in any way recently? Any film breaks or wrap-ups lately?

Is the noise present with film, or without film as well?

The projector still feels smooth turning over by hand. When the intermittent sprocket is in the locked position, is there any play in the sprocket? There should be virtually no play in the direction of rotation, or laterally -- side-to-side.

The description of the noise (thanks to Randy's help) made me first think of the intermittent flywheel being loose. There are two screws that hold it on. If they are loose, you can't just tighten them. The position of the flywheel on the shaft positions the cam properly. Excessive play laterally on the camshaft will cause all kinds of ugly noise. If the screws are tight, there should be virtually no play.

Keep us advised and good luck. Feel free to call the factory in Omaha, we can help.

Pat

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-15-2001, 06:44 PM:

Don, go to the local auto parts house and pick up a hunk of heater hose to use as a stethoscope. It will serve as a valuable tool to pinpoint sources of noises. You would be surprised how good it works. It should be possible to determine in a very short time where the noise is coming from.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-15-2001, 09:05 PM:

Hey Paul,
Looks like we both have a bunch of experience around Manitowoc. I read in another post that you grew up there. I always enjoyed going up there to do work for the boys.
Hey Don, When are Bob and John going to start posting things here? I'm sure they lurk around here. We can give them all sorts of tips on what equioment should be installed to replace what you have there

.
Are any of the BX-100's still running at the Strand?
Does John still ski? If he does he needs to vacation out here in Utah!
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-15-2001, 09:58 PM:

Mark, if you were talking about the Strand in Manitowoc, what is in there for equipment, I don't know. In 1983, it had Motiograph AA's there.

Ah, yes - again the good old days. I remember as a kid, the Strand had the 9-cent Saturdays. All the Gene Autry, Roy Rogers, The Cisco Kid, and Tom Mix you could handle. They even had 4 cartoons! Saturdays was always a big day for us kids in the late 40's and very early early 50's. It was a sell-out every Saturday.

It went dark for a long time, then re-opened. What it is doing today, I don't know, but I'll find out. The old Empire theater on 18th and Marshall street is now an electronic supply house, The Mikadow is a little church, and the Capitol is now a performing Arts Center.

(You pushed a green button when you mentioned Manitowoc)

I just found out IT IS STILL RUNNING!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-15-2001, 10:17 PM:

Hi Paul,
The Strand went multiplex in the early 80's. It was quaded and then a 5th screen was added a few years after th. Its still going strong as far as I know. We pulled the Motios at the time of the quadding and installed BX-100's They ran well after we got rid of Charlies shutter grears and as far as I know they are still running. The split was done right and designed By Don Holt, Marcus's architect. The main floor is pretty much intact with another theater up behind it and the lobby. The third is was in the balcony and the forth was built along side the original building. A fifth was added next to the 4th.
We actually ran Lawrence Of Arabia in Theater 4 in 70mm for a three week run. It did really well there.
At the next town north there was a great bar that JOhn and Bob and I used to get lunch at. Can't remember the name of the town though. There was also a great pizza place out near the lake in the same town.
Mark

Posted by Don Anderson (Member # 397) on 03-15-2001, 10:27 PM:

You guys are unbelievable! Manitowoc, oh my gosh. No, I don't think the Strand has the Motiographs anymore. I know that Bob had offered me a pair of them awhile back. I'm assuming that's the ones. I have yet to get them in my possession. I'm not sure what projectors are in use up there, as I have never stopped by the theatre. Its a drive from WB. I've only seen pictures of the outside. Mark - Bob and John don't surf the net, at least they never talk about it. But I did touch base with John last week and mentioned the Backdoor at the Capitol. Had him laughing, and coughing at the same time. He said to say hi to ya Mark.

I took the intermittent movement out tonight. It is damaged, well a gear is totally worn inside it. One of my old school buddies showed me what was damaged on it, and gave me a quick lesson on oil changing, greasing the motor, etc. No, don't get the idea the that there was no oil. It was oiled. The small gear was just worn out, he called it something, but the type of gear slips my mind at the moment. He worked there back in the mid 90s, and did maintenence and all. In fact, he replaced the same movement in our upstairs booth. Part arrives tomorrow. Wanna guess what I'll do doing on Friday???? Thanks everyone for your help. I'll buy ya a beer if you're ever in the area. We only had to turn away 4 people who wanted to see Crouching Tiger tonight. The movie has pretty well run its course.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-15-2001, 10:37 PM:

Mark, the town North of Manitowoc was Two Rivers.

Next time I get to manitowoc, I'll have to see if i can get a grand tour of the Strand.

Don, is your theater part of Wisconsin Amusement? Seems as though I serviced that theater in the early 80's a couple of times. I think the owner's last (or first) name was Frank. Been too long ago to crisply remember. I remember the Simplex up stairs had a nasty shake in the lense housing then, but's that all I remember of it, other than Frank was a real fine person.

Posted by Don Anderson (Member # 397) on 03-16-2001, 05:25 PM:

Paul, the West Bend theatre was at one time owned by WI Amusements. They sold it to Bob and John in the 1980s. The Franks own the theatres in Fond du Lac, the old Retlaw (downtown/closed),Forest Mall cinema, and a new multiplex just off of Hwy 41 and I believe Johnson Street?? Not sure if thats the right street, but they own it.

By the way, the Simplex is purring like a kitten!