Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Open your own rusted-out film lab!

This is topic Open your own rusted-out film lab! in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002116

Posted by John Schulien (Member # 215) on 04-05-2001, 01:41 PM:

Hey! Every wanted to open up your own rusted-out film lab? Look no further.

You'll want to begin by equipping it with a rusted-out B&H Model D printer, conveniently available on eBay for a starting bid of only, cough, $2000!
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1227344508

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-05-2001, 03:51 PM:

Sad to see a piece of film history so abused and uncared for.

Contact printing technology has come a very long way, but still basically involves bringing a negative and a print film together and shining light through the negative:
Motion Picture Printing

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-05-2001, 04:24 PM:

Aw, I could fix her up! With about 6000 spare man hours , a plating line, a paint line, and a de-dusting, and de-rusting facility. The funny thing is that the rebuild would cost less than the $2000.00 bid amount. Someone ought to e-mail this guy so he doesn't waste his $3.00 per E-bay ad

. This is his second listing......

John Pytlak said in an earlier post "but still basically involves bringing a negative and a print film together and shining light through the negative:" John, Does this reveal why contact prints are so unsteady? The guy holding the light shining through the negative can't stand still? Or does he lean on the machine while it is running to steady himself?
Mark @ GTS
P.S. Did any of you catch the 22 perf 65mm camera movement on E-bay? This is the format that Imax SHOULD have been.

Posted by John Schulien (Member # 215) on 04-05-2001, 05:06 PM:

John -- but on the other hand, if someone spends the money and buys it, perhaps they will fix it up. At the very least, if cleaned up it would make a very interesting museum piece. I've seen pictures of those machines, but never seen one in real life. Heck, if I had a hollywood-style "theme bar", I'd buy that sucker, clean it up, load some film into it, and place it behind a glass wall, for people to stare at curiously while they quaff their beer.

Better off that the fellow put it on ebay then haul it to the junkyard though! Now he needs to list it at a realistic price. I can't imagine what the shipping would be on that piece.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-05-2001, 10:17 PM:

Mark: I've mentioned in several previous posts that one of the main causes of unsteadiness in contact printing is when the preferred method of printing a short pitch original (0.1866 inch pitch) to a long pitch raw stock (0.1870 inch pitch) is not followed. When you wrap two films around a printing sprocket, the outer one needs to be a bit longer, or it will "slip", causing unsteadiness or loss of sharpness. That's why Kodak perforates most 35mm negative films BH-1866, most print film KS-1870, and offers BOTH BH-1866 and DH-1870 for intermediate film (interpositives and duplicate negatives).

The time-tested preferred way of multiple stage printing is:

Camera Negative, BH-1866 perfs
Continuous contact printer onto
Interpositive, DH-1870 perfs
Pin-registered step (optical or contact) printer onto
Duplicate Negative (BH-1866 perfs)
Continuous contact printer onto
Release Print (KS-1870 perfs)

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-06-2001, 08:17 AM:

JOhn, I was just kidding...........
Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-06-2001, 09:09 AM:

New printers are still based on the same technology as the old BHP units
At a auction of a small lab a few years ago they fetched well into the 8,000.00 range for there 6 BHP's.
Remeber almost all sountracks are recorded on optical cameras that were built by Westrex back in the 40's (retrofitted with Nuoptics)

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-06-2001, 09:16 AM:

Mark: I know you were just kidding about the unsteady guy holding the light.

But everyone is quick to blame "high speed" release printing for unsteadiness and loss of sharpness, when paying attention to the well-established and time-tested fundamentals of motion-picture technology can yield superb results, even when the release prints are made at thousands of feet per minute.

Posted by Joe Schmidt (Member # 822) on 04-08-2001, 01:15 AM:

Can anybody enlighten --

Does it ever happen that a "master positive print" and by this I mean a fine-grain print struck directly off the camera negative, ever makes it out into general release in the USA, even accidentally? I remember once running a print of "Trading Places" [Paramount] which was so exquisitely sharp as compared with the usual release prints made from dupe negatives or CRI's ... I though it was a master positive. Could have been.

Often foreign film prints have this level of quality; where the quantity of prints struck is so small that all are direct from the camera neg.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-08-2001, 07:56 AM:

Joe -- You probably saw an EK print (off the camera neg). An interpositive would have very low contrast and (I think) BH perfs instead of KS perfs.

Maybe John P. can enlighten us about perf type on intermediate elements. I don't think interpositives have a soundtrack, either.

Posted by Steffan Laugharne (Member # 800) on 04-08-2001, 09:40 AM:

Re: Original Negative prints

Here in the UK many of London's premiere cinemas eg. Odeon Leicester Sq/ Odeon West End/ Warner Leicester Square etc. regularly screen original negative prints. A few years ago, London had possibly the finest cinema in the world - the Odeon Marble Arch (opened Feb 1968). The Chief Projectionist there would always insist on running an original negative print. Woe betide a print manager who put anything other than O.N. print in that cinema! Sadly, I had the task of closing the Odeon Marble Arch as a single screen with a charity screening of Gandhi in 70mm, September 1996. It is now converted to 5 screens.

Steff

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 04-08-2001, 03:05 PM:

Some limited release prints that I screened at a film festival appeared to be first generation (as opposed to fourth or so) prints. The super-fine grain is especially apparent when focusing through binoculars. Ironic that these low-budget films looked much better than a typical print from a major Hollywood release.

Steffan,
Do you mean the projectionist at that particular theatre actually had the clout to get original negative prints booked there? I wish I had that power....

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-09-2001, 09:40 AM:

35mm camera negative films are perforated short pitch (0.1866 inches) with Bell and Howell perforations BH-1866. This is the perf that has the "round" sides. The height of each perf is 0.0730 inches, and the width is 0.1100 inches. Standard SMPTE 93.

Print films used for release prints are perforated long pitch (0.1870 inches) KS-1870. This rectangular perf has rounded corners, and a height of 0.0780 inches and a width of 0.1100 inches. Standard SMPTE 139.

Intermediate film is available as short pitch BH-1866, or long pitch DH-1870. The Dubray-Howell perf is similar to the rectangular KS perf, but has a height of 0.0730 inches, and a width of 0.1100 inches, so it can be precisely positioned using a BH registration pin in an optical or step contact printer. Standard SMPTE 237.

Here are some links to Kodak information about perforation dimensions:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/programs/student/handbook/perforations1.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/h1/sizes.shtml#perfs
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/programs/student/handbook/perforations2.shtml

There is no doubt that direct prints from the original negative will have the very best quality. But no one in their right mind would attempt or risk printing an irreplaceable spliced original negative the thousands of times required for a major release. So an interpositive is made, and from that, as many duplicate negatives as might be required for worldwide release. If the proper printing procedures are used (always use a short pitch original and a long pitch raw stock on a continuous contact printer, use a pin-registered optical or contact step printer for printing the IP to DN stage), the sharpness and steadiness can be excellent.

Here is a link to Kodak information on printing systems:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/printing.shtml#operations