This is topic Odd Defect in Xenon Lamp (LTI Lamp) in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 04-07-2001, 09:10 PM:
 
I was wondering what would cause a lamp to create a "bubble" in it? This lamp has only 600 hours on it. It is in a XENEX II lamp house. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-07-2001, 09:19 PM:
 
Hi, Sean.

If you are addressing a bubble in the quartz glass itself, something got on it. Maybe a blotch of oil or an oily finger touched it.

I would not recommend using that bulb. It will probably blow up. The damage has already been done, and take it out of service immediately if you haven't already done so.



 


Posted by Joe Schmidt (Member # 822) on 04-08-2001, 12:01 AM:
 
Sean, be very careful!!

DON'T TOUCH THAT BULB unless you are wearing a helmet, flak jacket and heavy gloves protecting your arms and hands 100%.

It is simply not worth the risk otherwise.

You can be killed or maimed for life by that thing.

If you don't have ADEQUATE safety equipment, I would almost say it would be safer to just post a warning sign on the lamphouse [DO NOT OPEN!] and let the bulb run until it does blow up, if it is going to. Once it has blown up, if it does, it cannot blow up again and then you can safely clean up the mess and install another bulb.

Unfortunately you can also have a show broke down in the middle, which is why I have always questioned the wisdom of running single projectors with platters -- there's no backup and in case of a breakdown you just can't get back up and running quickly as we could in the old days with 2-proj. & sometimes 3-proj. booths.

Could others here comment on this, perhaps?

J.

 


Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-08-2001, 12:29 AM:
 
I say to change that thing out right now. Even if you have to do it between shows.
Get your flack jacket and your face shield. Make sure you're wearing your gloves. Take all the precautions that we all talk about on this site.

I'd rather have one show be 2 minutes late than have to tell a theatre full of Moms and their kids that they can't watch the rest of 102 Dalmations because "The light bulb burned out..." Kids don't understand those things.
The Moms don't understand things much better than the kids do, either. Most lay people think it's just an ordinary light bulb. They just don't understand about the intracacies and dangers of xenon lamps.

Yeah, I know I may have been rash about saying to change the lamp out between shows. It CAN be done but I'd rather not do it unless it was an emergency. However, I'd say that this IS a borderline emergency. At least it WILL be an emergency if that puppy blows on you!

If you think you can change the lamp on in-betweeners just shut the lamp off when the credits roll. Maybe let most of the people leave the theatre first. This will give the lamp a few extra minutes to cool off. Yeah, I know that's cheezy presentation but this is an emergency, right? Get all your tools laid out and ready to go so you don't have to fish around for them at the last second. When called upon, I have been able to change out a xenon lamp between shows in about 15 minutes. I don't like to do it but it's nice to know that I can when I have to .

The other alternative is to wait till after last show and do it then. Maybe if you're lucky there won't be anybody in the auditorium for the last run. (I can hope, can't I?) Then you can run the show with the lamp off and do it right when the film tails out. Again it won't take you more than an extra hour to do it. If your boss says he doesn't want to spend the payroll money, ask him which he would like to pay for... $10 for you to stay late and fix the problem? OR about $1,000 dollars to repair a F***ed up lamphouse? It's his choice. If you want to compromise with him tell you can come in an hour early next morning and do it. If you let him think it was his idea, all the better.

I may sound a little rash in this post but I really believe in what I'm saying. I have seen too many things get messed up simply because somebody didn't take action when the should have and it cost them a LOT more than it could have if they took care of the problem right in the first place.

Use your judgement and don't take unnecessary chances but also do the good work that I KNOW you know how to do!


 


Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 04-08-2001, 02:20 AM:
 
Thanks guys,
Yeah I would like to change it out but the owner does not want me to. The tech is coming for his quarterly visit on tuesday so we are going to have him do it then. If it was up to me it would be out already.
 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-08-2001, 02:30 AM:
 
I came back here to warn you of the dangers of that bulb, but thank God, Joe Schmidt and Randy Stankey beat me too it.

That thing is a hand gernade with the pin already pulled.

If it lasts that long without exploding, please get out of the room when your tech changes it, if you can.

If you are required to be there when it is changed, make sure you are wearing protective gear and face shield, also.

Paul


 


Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-08-2001, 04:40 AM:
 
Sean;

Are you capable of doing it safely?

I don't mean to sound like I'm putting your boss down but I think he's being a "weenie". If this thing is as bad as you say, it really NEEDS to come out of there RIGHT AWAY! I think he just doesn't understand the gravity of what's about to happen.

If that fucker blows up on you it will sound like a shotgun going off! It'll probably take out the reflector dish. If your lamphouse doesn't have a heat shield in the snoot, the thing will shoot glass particles out of the lamphouse and into the projector. They will imbed themselves into the projector gate and will scratch the fuck out of any film you run until you repair the projector... not just the lamphouse... the projector... and the film too!

A brand new trap/gate costs something like $500+ depending on the model. The reflector is going to cost you a few hundred Semolians too. If you trash the print you could be on the hook for over $1,000 (If you're lucky.) This doesn't include down time which could cost you several hundred dollars per show. It'll cost even more if it happens over a weekend. Add to that the lost revene at the concession stand and your REALLY down and dirty! (Oh! And don't forget: You'll be cleaning razor sharp pieces of glass out of that projector for years to come! )

What we end up with is a bill for what? 2,000++ dollars? Why? Because the guy is trying to save a bit of chump change on payroll? You gotta' ask yourself... Is it worth the gamble?

I say you talk to the boss and explain that this is a "Pay me now or pay me later" kind of deal you've got going. If you are capable of doing it you ought to do it. If you are "marginally" capable of doing it, then I say you talk the boss into doing it together. If he's not the mechanical type, then get somebody to help who is mechanically inclined. Just take it slow and easy. Take your time and do things step-by-step. Maybe you ought to wait until the end of the day and do it when the lamp is cold. It's a LOT safer then... something like a factor of 2 or 3. (Going by the internal pressure of a hot lamp vs. a cold one.)

After you do change it you should have your tech. come out and look things over...


  1. To make sure you did it right
  2. To make sure there are no problems that might cause this to happen again.

If you still can't get the guy to let you change it, I wish you good luck. You're going to need it!
 


Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-08-2001, 04:46 AM:
 
Sorry about double posting but this just came to mind:

You say your tech is due on site by when? Tuesday? If that thing shits the bed on you, will he still come on Tuesday?

Man! If one of my theatres called me with a problem like this I'd be OUT THE DOOR!!!

PS: Sorry about the swearing. I usually censor myself but I am trying to make a point.


 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-08-2001, 04:50 AM:
 
And, Sean, if you don't have the proper OSHA approved safety equipment such as the jacket, face shield, etc., don't even think about changing it.

Having this equipment on hand, I believe, is a required by OSHA. You might want to look into that if that makes you feel more comfortable.

For what is worth, I FORBID any of my projectionists to change a xenon bulb without wearing the protective clothing that we have provided in our theaters.

Furthurmore, I forbid them to change a xenon bulb if they didn't feel comfortable about
doing it.

I posted this to further back up Randy, when he asked you if you are capable of doing it safely.

If you feel you can't, then I would recommend that you simply just don't do it. Again, those bulbs are very dangerous.


 


Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-08-2001, 06:30 AM:
 
Sean,

Before that lamp is taken out, can you get us a picture of it for discussion and teaching purposes for the rest of the members (and lurkers) here?

I am amazed that the tech isn't coming out to your theater and that your manager has instructed to not change the lamp. Whatever happens I hope that thing does not blow up before it gets removed, as it will cause significant damage to the reflector and as Randy put it so nicely, at LEAST a $1000 bill in projector/lamphouse parts and potentially replacement print costs as well.
 


Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 04-08-2001, 04:57 PM:
 
Its not the Manager that doesnt want it taken out (Im one of the managers) its the owner. He feels that it is best to let the tech do it and there is nothing that I can say to change his mind, also i do not think we even have a spare lamp.
 
Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 04-08-2001, 05:02 PM:
 
The owner will not let us call the tech, we told him about the situation and he said to have the tech look at it on tuesday. The reason we opened the lamphouse in the first place is because we needed to find out the wattage of the lamp. He didnt even want us to do that. I reminded him that I was a head projectionist at my previous job and that I had experience with Xenon Lamps but he still doesnt even want us to open the lamp house.
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-08-2001, 05:28 PM:
 
Okay! Let the dodgamm thing blow up! Maybe you'll be lucky and it won't.

If it does, tell this guy that about 1,000 people from all around the world warned him!

The very LEAST he should do is call the tech and have him order you a new lamp. If he calls bright and early Monday morning he can have it delivered Next-Day Air. When your guy gets there he can just swap it out and be done with it.

If I were in your position I would just change the thing and not say anything. When the tech gets there, if he knows his stuff, he'll back you up on it. Just about everybody reading this thread would back you up if they could. I know I would if I were there!


 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-08-2001, 07:46 PM:
 
I have seen owners like that. Don't argue with him, Sean. You know you are right, so you have done your job.

Randy, I don't think he should change it. Sean could be written up for dis-obeying that ***** owner's orders, and his job could be threatened.

Let the F*****g thing blow! The owner deserves it.


 


Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-08-2001, 08:00 PM:
 
I'm with Paul on this one. It sounds like Sean has given the owner all the necessary information about the problem and what needs to be done. If he doesn't follow the advice, he deserves what he gets. It's really sad, though, when theatre owners hire good employees and then don't listen to their advice.
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-08-2001, 10:58 PM:
 
Y'Know... You can't shovel shit against the tide.
 
Posted by Joe Schmidt (Member # 822) on 04-09-2001, 02:56 AM:
 
Well, this is all bad news from start to finish. Just another horror story. Sean, I hope somehow this all works out OK for you, and stay out of the room while the tech changes the bulb. You aren't being paid enough to justify taking any kind of risks.

And if the thing blows up, and the owner gets a $1,000 bill for all the repairs; and then blames you, and you get fired, which wouldn't surprise me from what's been said in this thread: put it all behind you and move on to something else. Anything's better than having to deal with a boss from hell, and this is a stupid one which is worse.

I'm a newcomer to this forum, but I think you guys are going to hear a broken record out of me: "Glad I'm Retired!"

Randy, Paul, Scott: I gather that you guys are full-time techs who handle many screens in a quasi-managerial capacity and I would hope that you at least have some clout with cheapskate corporates. People like us who can walk into an empty room and put it all together & fix it when it's broke don't grow on trees and I guess at least you can tell the owners "The buck stops here, daddy. THIS IS IT!"

Grrrrrrrrrrr from Montana.

j.

 


Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-09-2001, 03:14 AM:
 
Quasi-Managerial... Hmmm... I like the ring of that! Can I put that on my business card?

Yeah, companies can be cheap. I agree with that up to a point. If they spent money every time somebody asked for it, they'd be bankrupt in a week!

I have very little problem getting my company to order parts when they are needed. Mostly because of my philosophy. Only once or twice have I asked for things that turned out not to be needed. One time it was for something stupid but I was about 500 miles away and was trying to diagnose a problem by phone.

My philosophy is:


  1. When I KNOW I'm right, I put my foot down and don't take "No" for an answer. (But be polite if you can muster it.)
  2. If I THINK I'm right, I say so but I listen to reason.
  3. If I MIGHT be right but MIGHT be wrong, I take things as they come.
  4. If I don't know what the heck I'm doing I go outside to have a cigarette while I think about it.

What I find that happens is that people will listen to you more this way. Speak with authority and don't take no crap. BUT don't be so hard headed that you won't listen to reason. After a while people will get to know that when you say something they should probably do it. (Or tell you a good reason why not.)

Telling the occasional joke helps lighten things up. You don't want people to think you are an ogre!



 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-09-2001, 03:24 AM:
 
Some corporate owners are nothing short of a north end of a southbound horse. When they pay big bucks because of a preventable equipment failure, they learn very quickly.


 


Posted by Rachel Carter (Member # 693) on 04-09-2001, 03:46 AM:
 
I told you Sean, its a fun job....ya. Gotta love "that" theater. You can correct me if I'm wrong but you guys don't even have a spare do you?

Little explanation on the owner....does anyone remember the thread "Masking Tape Aperture Plate"? Same theater. Actually Sean posted that before he started there.

Sean and my fiancé Anthony Gilardi (new to film-tech) are the managers (Sean asst. and Anthony GM). The owner is pretty new to the business, he’s owned this theater for a year and no others. He doesn't seem to understand that the projection booth is worth his money and effort. I will give him credit that he has really fixed up the place with new seats, a new concession stand, and soon to be a new rug. He just doesn't seem to care about the quality of the pictures on the screen as long as the picture is there, just comfort for what the customers see. Sean and Anthony do their best to make the theaters film presentation great but it can be hard with what they are given, as most of us know. Knowing the owner, Sean, and Anthony I would just wait for the tech. It's what the owner wants...it's what the owner will get.

 


Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-09-2001, 06:23 AM:
 
Clout? Ha!

I have never had much clout with anyone... Having said that, I'm also not willing to take unnecessary risks (like having stuff blow up in my face) when it's clear that no one else cares.
 
Posted by Joe Schmidt (Member # 822) on 04-10-2001, 05:27 AM:
 
Well put, Scott. As a comparison, I know a number of police officers, and have told them they should cool it and not pull too many people over hassling them over petty traffic stuff. They are just enforcing the rich men's laws, many of which are intrinsically bad and designed to prey on the poor, and failing to realize that the rich men don't care if they live or die.

Some of the guys have come back later and said they thought it over, and I'm right. Some schitzy person on a traffic stop just might pull a gun & blow their head off.

Randy, you stop smoking. This will not kill you as fast as a xenon bulb blowing up in your face. It will be much slower and painful when the time comes. I know the med stuff. One of my best friends is a pulmonologist doc. My dad died prematurely after enduring several final years with a horrible hacking cough.
 


Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-11-2001, 12:21 AM:
 
Honestly, I don't think I have much clout within the company. I think I get what I need simply because I DON'T try to use clout unless it's necessary.

I try to be RIGHT when I make decisions. Those that have the clout know me well enough to know what I tell them is true. They'll back me up when I ask for things because I don't ask for things that aren't needed. That's not clout, that's common sense.

Smoking:

The thing is, I smoke more when I'm alone and I spend a lot of time alone.

I spend most of my time on the road alone. I don't have a "core" group of people to depend on every day. The people I DO see on a regular basis don't know me outside of the context in which I work.

I generally WANT to quit smoking but you really gotta' admit that as much as quitting is a "willpower" issue, it takes a lot of support from other people to keep you going. This I don't have and it makes it harder to keep off the ciggs.

Now, this sounds like a cop-out: The reason why I started smoking cigarettes was to replace the things I USED to smoke. At the time it was a lesser of two evils. After a while the habit stuck.

I really have been interested in quitting. I have a question about this but I'm going to cut this post off here. It's getting too far off-topic. I'll pick it up in "Film-Yak"... Meet me over there and I'll continue.

.
 


Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-11-2001, 12:52 AM:
 
This owner situation sounds all too familiar. The ones I know like this just will not listen to recommendations and cannot be told anything...if money is involved (eg: new lamp).

There is one theater that even after having three physical fires in the lamphouse on the tap board of a 4000 watt console STILL would not replace it. Did I say three? Yes, THREE FIRES and even THAT wasn't enough. Their in-house tech warned them repeatedly and I also warned them after I came by and took a look at it...yet a new board was just too much darned money. Talk about putting not only the equipment at risk but the safety of the employees and customers! What really sucked about the situation is the fact that this particular console blocked the only exit to office space (where several people could've been trapped with no way out) and was only a few feet from the main electrical wall for the building (which was not even in it's own isolated room). To add even more to the situation, the lamp in there is way over hours, is darkened and flickers like no tomorrow.

Fortunately the "money men" are no longer in charge and I have faith that the man who has just taken charge will see to it that proper repairs are done immediately. No amount of money is worth the safety of even just one person.



 


Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 04-11-2001, 02:21 AM:
 
well Tuesday has come and gone, and im sure your all wondering what has happened. Well the tech came (I had to miss his visit ive been sick, and I had to get some sleep) and rotated the lamp, he said that the lamp was fine.

FINE!!!!?

Here is the lamp. see the bubble on the "nipple", notice the crystalization around it, See the cracks forming in the quartz? The tech also said that it is normal for the pin-spot of light from the cathode to bounce up and down when looking at it through the viewing window!!! I am calling tommorrow and informing him that if the lamp blows HE WILL PAY FOR REPAIRS! I am also going to contact LTI directlt. I think LTI makes a GREAT lamp. They have the best light output of any lamp ive seen. this was either a fluke or the tech screwed up the installation. I dont know what else to do.

------------------
--Sean McKinnon
Asst. Manager/Projectionist
Gloucester Cinema 1-2-3


 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-11-2001, 04:09 AM:
 
I think this is a factory defect. In addition to the knobs on the evacuation tit, check out what looks like cracks in the quartz glass.

I think this bulb is in danger of exploding.
 


Posted by Anthony Gilardi (Member # 808) on 04-11-2001, 01:40 PM:
 
Just bringing the thread back up to the top now that Sean has our pictures posted.
 
Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 04-11-2001, 08:14 PM:
 
Yikes! That's where one of those box office remote start switches (that I always disconnect) would come in handy.
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-12-2001, 01:02 AM:
 
Gee! And that "defect" is in JUST THE PLACE where somebody would touch the glass with their bare hand when they install a new lamp! Kinda' makes you wonder, doesn't it?

On one occasion when I saw one that got a smudge on it you could see the lines of the person's fingerprints on the lamp They were actually ETCHED INTO the glass! I wish I could have lifted the print and compared it to people working in the booth!

Seeing the place where the smudge is, I hold out a little hope that it's in a place where the glass is strong enough that just the area around the bubble will give way. A hole will develop in the lamp and all the gas will escape. The inside of the lamp will instantly turn white and it'll look like it's "on fire" inside the glass. (It would be kinda' cool looking if it wasn't such a dangeroud thing.)

I've seen two catastrophic lamp failures. One where it actually exploded mid-show. (Lack of ventillation -- exhaust fan gave out.) And one where the lamp "degassed", like I said above.

If you are workig when it gives, you'll know it. It sounds like a shotgun blast... really! (I've heard many-a shotgun)

If it does go, remember about the glass flying into the projector. I would actually lean toward handling that problem first. Unthread the projector and remove the gate/trap. Inspect it closely and look for any particles. (Watch it! They are sharp as razor blades!) Remove what you can and hope that there isn't any real damage. Doing this first will give the lamphouse time to cool off before you go sticking your hands in there. (Flaming-hot razor blades! ... Now THERE's a thought!)

Get out the vacuum cleaner and just go at it, using common sense. Wearing leather gloves is a good idea. May I suggest two things: First, get a good "point-source" light and shine it in there. (An auto mechanic's "trouble light" for instance.) The light will reflect off the particles and you'll be able to see them better. Second, empty out the vacuum cleaner right away after you've finished. Be careful. You don't want to get nailed by the glass two weeks after you think everyting's back to normal. (This actually happened to me.)

After you've cleaned up the glass it's time to move on to the "recon" stage. Survey the damage and hope the reflector(s) weren't taken out. The repairs are common sense, pretty much. Just don't fire that puppy up again until you're sure it's back in good health.

Honestly, I'm praying that you won't have to go through all this. Good luck!
 


Posted by Joe Schmidt (Member # 822) on 04-12-2001, 01:33 AM:
 
Oh, geez. Stopped by this a.m. just to find out the latest on Sean's bullub.

Sean, my advice is don't involve yourself any further with this thing. Your concerns have been over-ruled by higher authority. Let it go, let it run as is, let it blow. When/if it does, don't open the lamphouse door, call the service guy, let him deal with it. Let the house shut down for the nite and refund the money. The only way this owner is going to learn is by paying a big bill and let HIM fight with the tech over why the bulb took everything out. You're already on record with your concerns registered.

=====>> YOU ARE NOT BEING PAID ENOUGH TO JUSTIFY TAKING ANY SORTS OF PERSONAL RISKS. <<=====

This included messing around with a lamphouse full of broken glass without the right equipment to deal with such a problem. I can see a big OSHA case brewing here, and I've got some expertise in this area. Meanwhile, take pictures, and save the negatives & prints. The pictures I see here are not sharp enough.

I would not come out of retirement to work in a multiplex for anything under $12-15 per hour and have no fear anyone would pay that; so I can continue happily retired !!

Yesterday I spent some time exploring the early posts on the site here, waaaaaaaaaay back in 1999 when it all started. Just absolutely a plethora of horror stories everywhere with these cheap corporate multi-chains.

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION? I have some ideas, but it's outside the scope of this thread. Will need to write up something comprehensible at leisure and post it... sometime next 2 weeks, maybe.

For now, time to put my old broken record back on the pornograph again [ooops! I mean phonograph] lower the transcription arm into the groove and off it goes:

"I'm sure glad I retired from this business back when I did."

-- Joe

 


Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-12-2001, 01:37 AM:
 
Yes, Randy. But don't know - I never saw one like that before. The little hemorrhoids 90 degrees apart looks kind of strange.

I have seen some bulbs that had finger prints etched on them, too. Makes me kind of wonder which clown changed the lamp.

My rule of thumb is, if it is even remotely suspected that the lamp was touched by a finger, do not use it until it is properly cleaned IAW standing instructions.

Joe, I totally agree with you.


 


Posted by Rachel Carter (Member # 693) on 04-13-2001, 05:30 PM:
 
Even if the problem with this bulb is that someone touched it, the tech installed it. If it is the cause of a fingerprint then its the techs fault, let him fix it and clean up his mess.
 
Posted by Robert Golding (Member # 746) on 04-15-2001, 04:06 AM:
 
I was wondering, do you use the same type bulbs in all your machines. Take a look at them and see if you have a similar defect on them. This looks a lot like where the gas is initially put in the bulb. The cracking is very suspect and dangerous. Most of the xenon's I've worked with put the gas in at the center of the bulb, but maybe this particular bulb is filled on the anode or cathode end.
 




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