Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Digital Vs 35mm

This is topic Digital Vs 35mm in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 04-08-2001, 02:19 AM:

Dear All,
Before I start I would like to say that I am new here and this is the first time I write a topic on FILM-TECH. I take this opportunity to write my own opinions about the "great" E-Cinema and the magnificent 35mm. I have been a projectionist since the age of 5 helping out my father with carbon arc lamphouses, threading film e.t.c. I believe that it is a shame for everyone if e-cinema finally replaces 35mm. What is more climaxing to a projectionist rather than threading up a projector, running up and down checking if everything is alright, taking all the hustle of preparing a print, SCRATCHING the film! and many many more interesting things that will surely be missed if Digital Cinema finally replaces 35mm. It's a shame because that is what cinema is about. Going to see a "FILM" and not some highly compressed DVD. Nothing beats 35mm in my opinion. The magic of going to the movies is sitting in the auditorium and hearing upstairs in the projector room the starting noise of the projector and even the dowser opening. Who wouldn't miss those great film breakdowns or even the magnificent view of a film burning on the big screen! That is my opinion about Digital cinema.
What do everyone thing?
Best Regards
Demetris Thoupis

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-08-2001, 04:07 AM:

The other day I was at the airport and as I was walking down the corridor I happened to spot a video kiosk sitting in the corner. It was playing along happily but the screen was all burned out from playing a repeating image over and over and over. The touch screen was worn and dirty. It didn't even work when you pressed the screen half of the time. Somebody should have torn that thing down and thrown it in the trash long ago.

I'm sad to think that if digitalmovie theatres become popular they might end up like like that old, negelected video kiosk that nobody even cares to put out of its misery.

Posted by Jonathan Haglund (Member # 807) on 04-08-2001, 04:20 AM:

Unfortunatly, digital is coming, and unless a major flaw comes about, such as the projectors spontaniously combusting, nothing is going to stop it. Digital can be your friend in my opinion. The things you list as being a welcome part of the "experience" of the movie are not welcome in my theatre. The Digital promise is of better presentation, less maintenance, and cheaper distribution. I know these promises are not quite met yet. I also know that my theatre chain is being bought by a man with a lot of money who stands to make a lot more money from digital projection, and there's nothing I can do to stop him from rolling out the big D in our circuit.

So anyway, I would prefer to spend less time worrying about the unstoppable and maybe even try and contribute to the progress.

P.S. Does anyone think it was a step backwards to go from analog to digital sound?

------------------
Jonathan Haglund
Edwards Theatre Circuit, Inc
Park Place 10

Posted by Greg Anderson (Member # 235) on 04-08-2001, 08:43 AM:

Yes, Jonathan, there are lot of folks who believe that discrete, analog 70mm had much better sound than any of today's digital formats. And, because today's digital formats spelled doom for 70mm presentation (and what might have been a promising future for 65mm production in the 1990s) they can be seen as a giant step backwards.

A few weeks ago, I happened to attend an event where the world's top cinematographers were honoring one another and I was surprised by how seriously they see "digital cinema" as an immediate threat to film's domination. I was surprised at how scared they seemed to be, despite the fact that they'd all still have jobs no matter what format is used to originate the image. They seem to agree that the paradigm shift is inevitable, but they're still not convinced that the image quality of high definition video (you call it "digital cinema" but let's call it what it is) is high enough to call this a step forward.

Vittorio Storaro said, "I believe that we should do everything possible to change the tendency of the industry to aim towards lower technical quality. The audio-visual industry is pushing film to a video quality level instead of raising video to film quality. I believe we should stand all together to change this -- 2K resolution should not be our final destination."

But, you know... if people pay money for it then it'll fly. Cinematographers will kick and scream because they work hard and they want the BEST technical innovations to make their work look the best it can.

High Definition Video in a big movie theatre might just make money for a few months... until people decide they'd rather watch high definition video at home... where the seats are more comfortable, the floor is cleaner, the popcorn is cheaper and parking is easier too. And, with the speed at which movies drop out of first-run theatres and into our DVD players, it's going to be worth the wait to a much greater number of viewers than are staying away from your theatres today.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 04-08-2001, 10:33 AM:

There are some who's bottom line is the bottom line, and there are some who love film and the whole film process. Those who are in it only for the bottom line, won't care what it is that puts the dollars in the cash box and the butts in the seat. Then there's the showmen.....(and women)

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-08-2001, 11:48 AM:

Well digital cinema will only be sucessfull if and only if people are willing to see it
I have yet to see a digital presentation that matches that of 35mm
Also I sujest you read up an interesting article in Cinema Technology a few quarters ago where the engineering and the bean counters at Odeon theatres Uk couldn't find any saving but in fact increases in all areas of operational costs with no substantial improvement in presentation.

If you feel D cinema is an improvement in the presentation in your cinema then take a cold hard look at the the standards in your theatre.

Remember film done right is still a quantum leap ahead of electronics and for in the history of video for every improvement it has gained film technology has improved as well.
I am sure Fuji and Kodak are both working on improved stocks.

Also i find it odd that all the film labs are expanding at this time if flms demise is iminent

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-08-2001, 01:05 PM:

On the subject of digital sound. When you hear someone say that a vinal record sounds better than a cd you may scratch your head and say why? Well, Here is why.

When you take an analog signal and convert it to digital you must use a compression formula. This formula eliminates the lowest lows and the highest highs that the human ear cannot hear. The problem is that these compresions and eliminations can in fact eliminate some sounds that people with good hearing can hear. This muddies the sound and causes a shrill effect with lack of bass.

You do not have this problem with vinal records as long as you are using a good quality turn table and you take care not to scratch your records.

Now with digital film the same thing could happen when a compression is applied to the information. You could end up loosing something in the quality of the picture and gain unwanted artifacts that you will not see in a real fim presentation. If you take care of the film it will look wonderful everytime you look at it.

I do not think that digital picture presentations will ever look as good as film. Film just has a quality and richness about it that I do not think will ever be achived by a digital light process.

Hollywood needs to stop worrying about trying to kill peoples jobs and start worrying about making a movie that is worth a shit. Nobody is going to come to your theater by the droves if the movie is crap I don't care how it is projected.

Exhibitors need to realize that you are not really going to save money with this new process. You will be paying more for the technical services that you will need to maintain these puppies. If one of the little tiny mirrors becomes damaged you are left with a black pixil dot on the screen that never goes away. No matter what you play in there. In order to prevent these damages you are going to have to pay someone to come in and set up your xenon consoles everytime you have to change a lamp. I wouldn't trust a lot of people out there with this task.

Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 04-08-2001, 04:32 PM:

quote:
When you take an analog signal and convert it to digital you must use a compression formula. This formula eliminates the lowest lows and the highest highs that the human ear cannot hear. The problem is that these compresions and eliminations can in fact eliminate some sounds that people with good hearing can hear. This muddies the sound and causes a shrill effect with lack of bass.

That's not necessarily true about the compression formula, but it is true for the Dolby Digital and DTS systems that are used in theatres and homes. PCM audio that is on CDs is NOT compressed. The limitations of PCM audio are not due to compression, but due to insufficient sampling rates and insufficient bits per sample. Other limitations are inherent in the D/A converter mechanisms used in the CD player or receiver used to convert the bitstream back into analog.

Even if no compression is used, digital audio (or video) can be vastly inferior to analog if the sampling rate is not high enough to capture the highest frequency components present in the original signal and/or each sample taken does not have a wide enough range of possible values to capture the level of the signal at that point with enough resolution.

Evans

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 04-08-2001, 10:47 PM:

For those of you that will be in SoCal on the 18th and 19th of May, come check it out for yourselves:
http://www.etcinema.org/smpte_program.html

Anybody else on the list planning on going?

Ogenki de,

Paul