Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Pad Roller Lubricant

This is topic Pad Roller Lubricant in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002132

Posted by Tim Sherman (Member # 569) on 04-09-2001, 06:58 AM:

I have a few simplex XL's and the pad rollers are starting to slow down and not turn as eaisly as they used to. What is the best lubricant for them. I don't think i wanna use oil i think that it is too thick and won't let them spin freely. I also thought about using powdered graphite, but didn't know if it would create some dust that would work itself onto the film. So im pretty much open for sugestions that any of you may have.

------------------
"Come on out to the drive-in and spend a night out with the stars"
ME!!

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 04-09-2001, 08:47 AM:

Tim - The plastic pad rollers need to run on a clean shaft, no lubrication at all. Any lubrication, even graphite, just gums up the works.

A small allen wrench will remove the end knob. Wipe the shaft clean of any oil, and use a cue tip to run through the hole of the pad roller itself. Use a little alcohol if necessary to clean.

When re-installing the knob, be sure to allow enough side play for the roller to move freely.

Pat

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 04-09-2001, 10:54 AM:

In my brenkert, I used a little Marvel Mystry oil on the shaft, wiped it off, and reassembled. I also thoroughly cleaned the rollers of any dirt and film gunk.
Is this ok?

Josh

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 04-09-2001, 11:07 AM:

Pat is right. I have found that ANY type of lubricant will gum them up and stop them from rolling eventually. Clean them well with a little water, soap, and a Q-tip. I also find that a polishing of the shafts with Brasso helps a bit too.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-09-2001, 12:38 PM:

I'll jump on that bandwagon, too!

Clean them first. IF they still don't work, try making some adjustments like resetting the closure stop or the lateral play. Sometimes they stop turning because they are jammed, or something.

If that still doesn't work then you might need to replace the parts. (But try cleaning them first... that's the cheap and easy soltuion.)

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-09-2001, 02:48 PM:

Stickey rollers? Hmmmmmmmmmmm....sounds like a classic case of someone using that damn WD-40 again.

As Pat said, keep the shafts and rollers clean and dry. When the rollers are removed, it would be a very good idea to clean the bores.

A little hot water and a mild cleaning solution, such as Simple Green or dish soap, and some cotton swabs will do a great job.

Make sure they are totally dry before re-installing them.

If it has steel pad rollers, order the plastic ones and throw the steel ones away.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-09-2001, 07:48 PM:

>>"If it has steel pad rollers, order the plastic ones and throw the steel ones away."<<

Alright...I was sitting quitely reading this thread until that one came out!...

The best pad roller I have used is LaVezzi's SOR-422 roller and it is a metal one. It uses oilite bearing so lubrication is necessary. Sure, this means that maintenance is required periodically to clean down and relube but overall they are finely machined polished so as to not abraid the film itself. It is the only double flange roller I will use, metal or plastic.

As to pad roller shaft lubrication with Nylon rollers...The only lubricant should be for the shaft to keep it from rusting (different climates will have different needs). That is, the apply lubricant and then wipe off is the best approach. The pad roller doesn't need it, again this is a rust issue. I would NOT recommend using alchohol (anywhere in the booth) since most of the time people seem to get the rubbing variety, rather than the anhydrous-pure isopropal. Rubbing alcohol has water in it that will surely start rusting parts. It also isn't the best thing for the older painted parts.

There is my $.02

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-09-2001, 08:31 PM:

Steve, I was referring to the old ones. Those are the most common.

I don't think there are that many of the ones you described are in service yet. I would never use them, anyway.

I have seen metal ones used in Century projectors and sound heads wear to such a point where it has caused film damage. Likewise, I have seen the same occur in Simplex equipment using either steel or split steel rollers.

As a rule, no lubricant should be used with nylon pad rollers. The shafts will not rust unless the machine has been sitting idle for years in a humid climate.

I also suggested earlier to make sure the pad rollers are completely dry before re-installation.

Oilite bushings should never be oiled. The equipment manufacturers of some of the stuff I deal with will void the warrenty if they are lubricated. I have been in the precision mechanical field too long, (over 40 years now)and I have seen many failures attributed to the oiling of Oilite bushings.

I have also discovered the service requirements were a minimum of a hundred times less without oiling.

I do maintain alcohol in the booth to be used to wash a xenon bulb if it is suspected to be contaminated by a greasy finger print, or whatever. Just plain clean rubbing alcohol and distilled water works great.

So far, I never had a bulb blow up after it was cleaned with rubbing alcohol and distilled water, and I have been doing that over a period of 28 years.

Posted by Joe Schmidt (Member # 822) on 04-10-2001, 04:45 AM:

Yecccch to plastic pad rollers, I say.

Of course, I am an Obsolete Person and have always preferred nice metal pad rollers after having seen so many plastic ones froze up and running flat.

Assuming the little shaft the pad roller slides onto has not been damaged by neglect, what one does is pull off the plastic, discard, clean the shaft with a suitable solvent: 1,1,1-trichloroethane is best if you can get it, cleans beautifully and destroys all grease and gunk. Apply a drop of projector oil [not too much] install the new roller and adjust correctly. It will spin freely.

I was always extremely fussy about pad rollers. They need to be checked occasionally, cleaned and re-lubricated. Adjust carefully, 2 thicknesses of film between sprocket surface and roller.

All quite Elementary, my dear Watson. Just one of many little things competent Projectionists used to look after before their Craft was Wiped Out by automation.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-10-2001, 06:57 PM:

Yes, Joe. 1,1,1-thrichloroethane technical was one of the best degreasers out there, until the enviromentalists killed it.

Selling that stuff is illegal now, from what I understand.

Posted by Joe Schmidt (Member # 822) on 04-11-2001, 04:36 AM:

Yeah, Paul, I think that's right; you can't actually get trichloro any more. Eons ago I used to be able to get it in gallon cans of "IBM Cleaning Fluid," one difficulty was it was very volatile and evaporated easily & thus lost some of its punch. Was also the ingredient of "Energine," widely sold in small cans, at least fresh, but expensive that way. Also, with xylene it was the main ingredient of Ampex Head Cleaning Solvent for mag heads of all kinds; here you can substitute 90%+ isopropyl alcohol which is very cheap.

On reflection it was nasty stuff and had to be used in a well-ventilated area & don't breathe the noxious fumes. Would remove every bit of body oil from one's fingers.

What would you suggest as the best equivalency to use today? New Energine, or something else? Old-fashioned gasoline works too in a pinch, but dangerous, the most I would carry loose is a small canful.

However, don't try to clean anything with Pepsi-Cola. That stuff's even more expensive per gallon than gasoline, thus why everybody whines about the price of gas I cannot understand!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-11-2001, 06:22 AM:

http://www.pyr.ec.gc.ca/ep/ozone/ofdamage.html
http://www.greenpeace.org/~ozone/chlorine/6chlor.html

"Methyl Chloroform (also known as 1,1,1-trichloroethane): Used as a solvent, containing carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. Its atmospheric lifetime is 6.1 years. The Montreal Protocol caps production and consumption of methyl chloroform."

"The full name of this international treaty is the "Montreal Protocol on Substances That Deplete the Ozone Layer." This agreement was signed in Montreal, Canada, on September 16, 1987, entered into force on January 1, 1989, and subsequently amended in London (June 1990) and Copenhagen, Denmark (November 1992). It followed the signing of the Vienna Convention for the Protection of the Ozone Layer in 1985."

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-11-2001, 03:05 PM:

Joe, you are not going to believe this, but I use freshly made coffee to clean my glasses when I am sitting in a restaurant. Works great! The people think I am nuts, but the product speaks for itself.

Coca-Cola works great on car windshields, too. Since I live in the bounce pattern of our wonderful navy-issue A6-E aircraft that leak hydraulic fluid and jet fuel, sometimes a fine mist covers my windshields. Coke will clean that stuff right off. But, it'll also chew paint off the car if you don't follow up with a garden hose.

When I was a kid, I dumped about 6 bottles of coke in a bowl, and placed an old alarm clock in it. It chewed the mainspring in half in less than 12 hours.

Coke also works good to free rusted pistons in Harley-Davidson motorcycles....Dump a bottle of coke in each cylinder, wait 12 hours, and the pistons practically fall out.

Of course, I would never recommend coffee or coke to clean roller shafts..

For a substitute for Thrichloro, I found the non-flammable Brake-Kleen works very well, but it does attack some plastics quite violently, more so than thrichloroethane. It won't attack nylon pad rollers, but the fumes are still toxic. Use only in a well ventilated space.

John, thanks for the information you provided about thrichloroethane.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 04-11-2001, 04:52 PM:

This may sound dumb, but can anyone go through step by step how to remove and instal pad rollers on Christie projectors? I'm tired of having to wait for our tech to come out and do it and I should be able to do something so simple.

Posted by Tim Sherman (Member # 569) on 04-11-2001, 09:40 PM:

Everyone thanks for the help. I tried out what you suggested and cleaned off the steel shafts and the pad rollers. And you guys were right they now spin very freely.

Paul you had a good call about the WD-40. i had never used the stuff on the machines but The projectionist i had in my booth for years loved the stuff... why i have no idea. but that kinda explains why he isn't there any longer.

------------------
http://www.autoramadrivein.com
"Come on out to the drive-in and spend a night out with the stars"
ME!!

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-11-2001, 10:15 PM:

Tim, they like that stuff because it smells nice.....

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-11-2001, 10:54 PM:

Yep, good old 1-1-1 trichloroethane. Worked great. Used it to clean the flux off of printed circurt boards after wave soldering. Now, if only I could get some DDT, those bugs in the garden would'nt stand a chance. They are taking away all the good chemicals!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-12-2001, 10:36 PM:

Paul,

I'm going to stand by what I said earlier...

While you may have experience (long even) on the subject....as to rust...it really depends on the area and how humid things get. We cant even use tin-plated connectors without them oxidizing.

Running clean dry pad roller shafts is a great idea but they will start to rust on you out here. (kinda the same way cars rust out here but last forever on the west coast).

As to the LaVezzi pad rollers (SOR422) they were OEM on Christie projectors once upon a type (I don't believe they are any longer) and depending on the tech/ operators or theatres are either popular or not. They are significantly more expensive than their nylon/delrin counterparts.

I will stand behind thema as the best thing for multiple reasons...they have the same kind of preceision machining that are in the gate area so when the film touches them, they will not abraid the film the way the nylon roller can. The inside flanges are machined to a smaller radius so they won't touch the film unless it is curling to the point of otherwise kissing the middle of the pad roller. A good place to check this is on Simplex or RCA soundheads on the sprocket just past the drum. If the operator makes a large lazy isolation loop, the film will often pucker into the middle of the pad roller and lightly kiss it with single flange padrollers (ie MNR22)...over time a fine scratch will develop. The SOR422 pad roller will stop this. Most double flange pad rollers will abraide the edge of the picture area and soundtrack whereas the SOR422 will not. Sure, threading up with a smaller isolation loop will stop the problem but punishing the audience due to operator carelessness isn't right either. They will also not damage the SDDS tracks the way a typical plastic roller can.

In our area (Washington DC/Mid Atlantic), if you don't have a light film of oil on the pad roller shaft, the rollers will lock up in time.

On the flip side, if properly maintained, they can last for decades.

Also, I agree with you on the Century metal padrollers, they can become sharp too.

Don't dismiss the SOR422, give em a try in one of your show places, see what you think. You might find you like them (and wish, as I do that they also made it in a single flange as well).

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-13-2001, 12:05 AM:

Steve, I thought we were in the rust belt, but I guess your area is even worse!!!!! You folks must have lot of acid rain, salt water breeze, and a highly polluted atmosphere.

Looks like you may not have any choice.....You gotta do what you gotta do.

Paul

Posted by Stan Gunn (Member # 554) on 04-13-2001, 09:44 PM:

Tim
Over many years of repairing both 16mm and 35/70mm equipment with both steel and plastic pad rollers, I have found that both types need lubrication.
I have found that good old singer sewing machine oil to be the best, It does not go sticky like some of the light oils.
On the subject of cleaning things, Percloretherlene, piclear, wet gate fluid, all the same stuff is the same as triclor,but I prefer to use shellite lighter fluid or turpintine both of these will remove any oily gunk leaving a dry clean surface.
Think about it any part that turns requires some form of lubrication with maybe nylon needing the least I have found that just a touch of Singer oil to free many pad and guide rollers, changeing regular replacement to regular oiling, remember to keep a supply of jesus clips or screws.

------------------
PROJECTIONISTS LOVE THIER CRAFT.
KANDY BAR KIDS JUST GET PAID.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-13-2001, 10:09 PM:

Paul,

Let me give you an example...masking boards falling down in the theatres from the staples (and I don't mean just one or two) rusting through within 10 years. In some theatres, they turn orange almost instantly. I'm sure you have areas where once bitten, you never want to go back...rusted shafts and intermittent noise from oxidation are like that with me.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-13-2001, 10:10 PM:

I just recently got through servicing a theatre in Charleston, SC.

They had such a problem with humidity causing rust that all of their focus mechanisms were completely frozen. (Simplex PR-1050/TU-2000)

I had to disassemble the lens collars and use a center punch and a hammer to get the guide rods out. Then I soaked all of the parts in a bucket of WD-40. Then I had to take emery cloth and remove the rust. (Being careful not to spoil the "fit" of the parts.)

Once I got them all sliding smoothly as they were supposed to I coated the guide rods and the threads of the focus knobs with Lubriplate grease and let that "soak in" for a few minutes. I used a paper towel to wipe off most of the grease so as to leave only a thin coating. I'm hoping that this will provide some anti-rust properties. I also advised the people there to use a little WD-40 on a Q-Tip every once in a wile to keep them moving freely.

I couldn't think of anything else to use, except cosmoline. (Parafin wax dissolved in kerosene.) My Dad used to use that to keep guns from rusting. He would go out in the back yard and make up a batch then soak some brown paper grocery bags in the stuff and wrap the guns up in it. It does a great job at preventing rust, but if you think WD-40 gets gunky, it will pale in comparison. You basically have to use kerosene to remove it again. Obviously, using the stuff in a booth would be a No-No. Not only will it mess up the projector if it gets in the wrong places but there's an obvious MSDS hazard there.

However, if you have parts that you need to store for a long time that can't get rusty, that would be the way to go, IMHO. You'd just have to make sure you removed all of it before you wanted to use them again.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-14-2001, 06:23 PM:

Steve and Randy, you guys must be living downwind from the United States Senate and the House Of Representatives....

Randy, you would better off telling them to use projector oil on the Q tips. At least it won't gum up so bad. ( I have to stand by this one, so Pbpthbpthbthp!!)

About the only useful thing I found of WD-40 is blow torch fuel. But even that is questionable. It leaves carbon schtroomels.

And, it doesn't prevent rust in underwear, either.

Posted by Dennis Atkinson (Member # 345) on 04-14-2001, 08:41 PM:

I have not tried this on a projector, but in many pieces of equipment where oil is more trouble than it worth, a good cleaning followed by a squirt of furniture (Pledge) polish and a shaft buffing works great in a nylon/steel setup. Slows down rust also.

Dennis

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-15-2001, 12:49 AM:

Dennis, I never thought of that. I don't see how it can hurt anything, it might be worth a try. Anything will beat WD-40 for lubrication purposes.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-15-2001, 06:25 AM:

Furniture polish usually contains a mixture of hard waxes (e.g., carnauba, paraffin). Sometimes silicones, lemon oil, or water are part of the mix. AFAIK, SC Johnson paste wax (the one that comes in the yellow can) contains only hard waxes and a solvent. A hard wax will offer some protection against rust and corrosion, and can help reduce friction.

Posted by Joe Schmidt (Member # 822) on 04-16-2001, 12:08 AM:

John, You Know Everything. Can you tell us what was the composition of the Johnson's Wax that Harlo Wilcox used to sell in 1939 on the Fibber McGee and Molly radio show?

(Marion and Jim Jordan, hubby & wife in real life.)

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-16-2001, 01:21 AM:

Actually, Paul, I was thinking of you when I told them that. Then I said, "On second thought, go out and get yourself a can of Tri-Flow."

I just happened to have a can of it on me and I whipped it out and showed them how to apply the stuff with a Q-Tip. I said, "This stuff makes WD-40 look like SUPER GLUE!"

PS: I would have to say that Tri-Flow smells even nicer than WD-40, although my most favorite chemical smell of all time has to be Hoppes No. 9

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-16-2001, 04:03 AM:

Randy, I heard of that Tri-Flo, but never used it. What's in it? John, Gordon, Mark, is it any good? If you all agree with Randy, I might have a use for it other than a blow torch! Does that stuff smell like Eau de Swank?

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-16-2001, 12:51 PM:

I don't know exactly what's in it but it says it's got Teflon in it. It smells really "sweet" but that might be a "masking" chemical. I don't know.

Back home, my gunsmith is just about as adamant about WD-40 as you are. He swears by this stuff. He sells it in his store but he won't even let WD-40 in the front door. He can't even stand to hear the word. I do tend to agree with him that Tri-Flow is better because it doesn't gunk up on you but I still say that when used judiciously, WD-40 is OK. Just don't go crazy, spraying it all over everything and wipe off the excess.

If I can get Tri-Flow I'll use it instead but not every place carries it. It's also pretty expensive. That little 4 oz. can cost $4.00!

PS: Many-a-bug has died a firey death at the hands of a kid with a can of WD-40 and a lighter! I ought to know!

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 04-20-2001, 01:26 AM:

quote:
Coke also works good to free rusted pistons in Harley-Davidson motorcycles....Dump a bottle of coke in each cylinder, wait 12 hours, and the pistons practically fall out.

If you look at the ingredients in Coca-Cola, you will see that it contains phosphoric acid. Very diluted of course, Coca Cola being mostly water. "Generic" sodas used to be called "Phosphates" at soda fountains, as in "I'd like a Cherry Phosphate".

Phosphoric Acid reacts with rust; if there is enough phosphoric acid to make the reaction complete, all the rust is depleted.

Phosphoric acid + rust -> iron phosphate + water

Iron phospate does *not* react with water. It is very inert, & many folks think of it as a primer-type substance (if you sand the excess powdery amount away), it does hold most paints well.

You can do better than coke by just buying phosporic acid at Home Depot or wherever; it generally goes by names like Ospho or Ph-Ospho-Ric.

It's an indespensable repair/restoration tool. And it doesn't contain all the sugars that Coke has, which cause problems of their own!

Posted by Gregory N. Jones (Member # 805) on 04-20-2001, 03:39 PM:

I work for Neumade Products and our Renovex cleaning solution used to use the Trichloroethane. We have found that the best replacement for Trichlor is Dichloro-1-Fluoroethane. It doesn't quite dry as quickly as the Tri did but it seems to work very well. Our new RenovexII has the Dichloro in it.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-21-2001, 01:28 AM:

Also, don't forget that just plain carbonated water contains carbonic acid just from the reaction of the CO2 with the water. Yes, it's a very weak acid and it would also be in very dilute quantities but in combination with the phosphoric acid it could produce a little bit of a one-two punch when it comes to removing crud from parts. Especially when it comes to hard water scale.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-22-2001, 07:08 AM:

AFAIK, the products sold for cleaning calcium deposits and rust stains on bathroom tiles (e.g., Lime Away, CLR) also contain dilute phosphoric acid, as does "Naval Jelly".