Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Keystone Moviegraph

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-10-2001, 01:51 AM:

I have one of these sitting next to my dog.

It is a Keystone MovieGraph, Model No. 147 W, Serial Number 55107 and and patent number 1345793. It has 5-inch reels, and is a hand cranked chain driven machine. It is a 35mm projector, using a 200-watt clear incandescent bulb. It was made in Boston, U.S.A

Anyone ever heard of those critters?

Looking the patent number up on the web, it was applied for on 17 October 1919 and issued on July 6, 1920 to Isidore Marks, of Boston Massachusetts, assignor to Keystone Manufacturing Company. If you looked up the number, there is a drawing of this machine, minus a few minor details.

That thing might be older than I thought. I wonder what it is worth, it is in very good condition.

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 04-10-2001, 07:23 AM:

Paul, that does sound like an unusual "critter". You may not want to sell it, but if you really want to find out what it's worth stick it up on ebay with a few pictures, a fancy write-up and a healthy reserve. You might be surprised. Things like "genuine U.S. Navy" Holmes and DeVry's, "genuine CinemaScope" lenses, and all kinds of questionable stuff fetch fancy prices!

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 04-10-2001, 07:49 AM:

beware of the bidding war on ebay. many people pay heaps for useless junk.

Josh

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 04-10-2001, 07:52 AM:

Josh: That's the point!

Posted by John Schulien (Member # 215) on 04-10-2001, 11:21 AM:

I have one also. I found mine on ebay and paid about $60 for it. Mine was in very rough condition though. I saw a mint example go by on ebay without reaching reserve ... I think that the bidding went into the $150+ range.

The interesting thing about those projectors was where the films came from. Rather than have special films made, the manufacturer cut a deal with a film depot -- he would take their junked prints, cut them into 100' segments, and sell them along with the projectors.

Two interesting side effects.

First, the kiddies got NITRATE film to play in their toy projectors!

Second, fragments of some lost silent movies may have survived this way.

My projector came with clips from three movies. An unknown silent western from 1923, part of an original print of a Buster Keaton short, and a clip from an unknown western/drama.

The third one is the most interesting. The picture filmstock has no edge printing, but the intertitle stock, which is spliced, not printed, into the film, has a date code of single-rectangle, which probably dates the film to 1917!

All of these nitrate films have shrunk about 3%, but otherwise have no signs of deterioration. They are strong, flexible, with no signs of stickiness or breakdown with the exception of about two feet of the 1917 reel.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-10-2001, 12:17 PM:

John, you are correct that a single date code symbol of a square on a Kodak print film likely dates those prints to 1917:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/dateCodev4.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/h1/identification.shtml#135427

You are also correct that any 35mm print of that era would be dangerous cellulose nitrate!

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 04-10-2001, 01:29 PM:

These Keystone projectors (there were at least 5 different models) were children's toys. They turn up quite frequently on ebay, usually missing the feed/takeup arms, films, and the mini Keystone Theatre poster. Prices are all over the place for these units.

I don't have any original Keystone film, but I have a tin, that is marked "slow burning safty film". Was this some special form of Nitrate? The reason I ask, is I have a reel of 28mm film from around 1922, and that is real safety film.

/Mitchell

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-10-2001, 01:45 PM:

Here are some links to Kodak information about nitrate film:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/environment/nitrate.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/technical/storage1.shtml

The Chronology of Kodak Motion Picture films lists the history of the transition from flammable nitrate film base:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/about/chrono1.shtml

1909

First public announcement of Eastman Safety Acetate Support based on
successful burning test results vs. Nitrate Support.

1910

First Safety Film (acetate) offered for sale in 22mm.

1923
Kodak made amateur motion pictures practical with the introduction of 16 mm
reversal film on cellulose acetate (safety) base, the first 16 mm CINE-KODAK
Motion Picture Camera, and the KODASCOPE Projector. The immediate
popularity of 16 mm movies resulted in a network of Kodak processing
laboratories throughout the world.
1948

Safety Base developed to replace Nitrate Base Films.
Kodak announced a 35 mm tri-acetate safety base film for the motion picture
industry to replace the flammable cellulose nitrate base.
Conversion from Nitrate to Safety Base begins, complete conversion takes
approximately 4 years.

1949

Improved Safety Base Motion Picture Film -- Awarded OSCAR --(22nd Academy
Year) Class I. Scientific or Technical Award

1950

EASTMAN Fine Grain Release Positive film,
5302. Safety base replacement for 1302. (B&W)
Replace nitrate with acetate.
EASTMAN Fine Grain Duplicating Film, 5365.
Replaced 1365 (nitrate).
EASTMAN Fine Grain Panchromatic Duplicating
Film, 5203. Replaced 1203 (nitrate).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-10-2001, 04:26 PM:

Hey Paul,
Has your Keystone been adapted to take 6000 foot reels? Mine has......Its also on top of a Simplex 5 Star Sound Head......

Mark @ GTS

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-10-2001, 06:51 PM:

Mark, mine won't. but it will handle a cartoon reel.