This is topic RCA 1040 getting hot in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Harry Robinson (Member # 265) on 04-15-2001, 03:01 PM:
I had my opening night at my screening room last night, and everything went pretty well, except it bothered me that the motor on my old RCA 1040 sound head got hot. It was so hot at the end of the film that you could see smoke in the projector beam. After I turned everything off I left the room and came back around a half hour later. It was still too hot to touch. I went back this morning and it was cooled down. This seems awfully extreme.I am running 6000 foot reels. Is this not appropriate? Also, could I have over-oiled the motor? I filled the oil tubes until they spilled over. In fact I've been drenching this thing and the Super Simplex in oil because of all the warnings from techs about tearing up gears. Am I doing thr right thing?
I'm going to an equipment supply place tomorrw. Should I look into getting an SH1000? I have beaten myself to death over this 1040 for over a year. I've rebuilt it and still there is excessive wow in the audio signal. Not to mention the fact that it's a pain in the ass to keep lubricated. Some one please give me some feedback on this today, so I can get a perspective on the subject before I go and spend more money.
Thanks as always.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-15-2001, 03:34 PM:
Try removeing the projector head and run it for an hour and see if it gets hot
That will either eliminate the Projector as causing to much of a load on it or as the culprit
If it is not the projector take the motor to a good motor shop
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-15-2001, 04:05 PM:
Is projector rolling nice and freely without any binding? Since the 1040 does not have a flywheel, it might be difficult to get an idea by observing the run-down time or hand inching. Try Gordon's approach, but instead of pulling the projector head, just pull the main drive shaft and the gear in the projector. (same difference, just get the load of the projector head off the motor.)
Also make sure your gearbox is still running smoothly. with no binding.
Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 04-15-2001, 09:53 PM:
If there is excessive wow, your flyweel could be drying up. I believe wolk has replacements. If not, I have one you can have. Be careful about how much oil you put in the motor. It is possible to over oil it. the oil will then sit in the motor, attract dust, and cause overheating because it will act like insulation. I also had the premier of my screening room last week. It got very late and one of my friends fell asleep 
one reel at a time is not the ideal way to show a film, especially when it is 9 reels long!
another $0.02
Josh
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-16-2001, 12:24 AM:
Well, Josh, we are going to fix that problem of using only one projector, aren't we? 
Posted by Bill Purdy (Member # 202) on 04-16-2001, 11:05 AM:
Yup, I agree, they do run hot! I used to run the same head in my screening room with an E-7 on it originally, and then later a Century SA. In my case I would run an entire feature from a Double MUT and the heat was significant. You certainly couldn't touch it without pain. The motor on my RCA was a "Robbins & Meyers" rated at 1/4 hp. I think one has to remember that this head was designed in the days of 2000 ft reels when they could rest every twenty minutes. In any case, I decided to not worry about it and I never saw smoke or flame. Maybe your oil level is a contributer to the smoke as you suggest. ------------------
Bill Purdy
Component Engineering
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-16-2001, 01:21 PM:
Here on the floor of my living room I have a SH-1000. 
I couldn't get a good picture of the nameplate but it says, "Temperature rise: 50 deg. C."
If this means what I think it does, then the motor can run at 122 deg. F. ABOVE room temperature. If your room is 70 deg. then that means this baby can get up to 192 deg. !!!
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-16-2001, 01:53 PM:
These do get quite hot normally. Especially if the projector you are running is a large load such as a Brenkert. These were originally designed for 20 min reels not the lengths you guys are runing on them. There is always a duty factor to take into account plus the age of the motor also needs to be taken into account. Older motors are generally less efficient and will this lack of efficiency is usually disipated as heat.
SH-1000 motors will get very warn to the touch but they should not get really hot even under a heavy load like a Super or E-7. If you run an X-L on an SH-1000 the motor hardly knows that its there at all.
Mark @ GTS
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-16-2001, 09:02 PM:
Running hot to the touch after several hours use may be normal, but seeing smoke in the air is NOT. Possibly the smoke was from the over-oiling?You can use a digital meat thermometer to measure the temperature increase of the motor casing --- Taylor makes one with a range of 58 to 302 F. for less than 20 dollars:
http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=102276
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
Posted by Pete Lawrence (Member # 130) on 04-16-2001, 09:04 PM:
As some of you may remember both Harry and I were rebuilding 1040's. I have an E7 sitting on top of mine at the moment and am very pleased with the overall performance.The motors sure do run hot to the touch. If I run a whole feature with maybe 2 to 5 minute stops between reels it's un-comfortable to touch, but not hot enough to damage it in my opinion. When I had things apart I also took the motor apart. It was full of old oil and dust that was blocking up the air paths. Also there were cardboard (the electronics industry calls it fishpaper) baffles to direct the airflow through the fan. These baffles were pretty well warped out of shape and also full of crud. They were constricting the airflow. I just took them out until I get the time to replace them with something better and stiffer like some 1/32" PC board fiberglass sheets. I haven't replaced them yet and things aren't to bad. I think you'll find the air path in your motor is at least partially plugged up from years of use. If you take it apart be carefull, the wires are thin and probably fragile by now. If you don't want to take it apart, you might consider taking it to a motor shop and let them wash it out.
I replaced all the gaskets at the time and haven't had to add any oil to the 1040 since I rebuilt it.
Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 04-16-2001, 10:56 PM:
yes I will fix that. But for right now the bracket has a projector hanging on it at the drive in. I also need to cut a hole in the wall, and get another lamp and changeover.Josh
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-16-2001, 11:04 PM:
Randy,You must have a very intresting living room floor. Splicers motors and whatelse.
Posted by Harry Robinson (Member # 265) on 04-17-2001, 12:19 AM:
What a wealth of responses! Thanks guys, as well as those of you who e-mailed me directly. Tonight I had the opportunity to run another feature. It got hot, but there was no smoke. In fact it seems to be cooling down quicker. According to Jim Duncan, an old timer around here who has been around the business for sixty years, I probably severely over-oiled the motor. He said a couple of drops every year or so are enough, and I have been pounding the stuff down it's proverbial throat until it overflowed the oil caps.
Well you guys said to really oil the crap out of these babies. So I guess I'm just rookie of the week. As for the wow problem, I'm going to change out the bearings in the lateral guide roller and see if that makes a difference. I'll let y'all know what happens next.Oh...I looked at what it would cost to replace my 1040 with an SH1000. I think I'll keep trying.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-17-2001, 01:10 AM:
That motor is attached to a SH-1000 which I "found" in an old derelict theatre that was supposed to have been scrapped. It's in about 80% - 90% working condition. Some of the wires have been cut, the solar cell needs replacing and it's mondo greasy. Still I can turn it over by hand and it'll do 2-3 revs before it stops. Once I get it de-gunked and properly lubed up it oughtta' be even better. That's sitting underneath a Century C projector head that I got from the same place. It', too, is in 90% working order. Just seems to need a lens and a set of plates. The only thing I can find wrong with it is that the shutter timing knob is stuck. (Probably from all the old, hard grease?) I have the both of them just setting together right now. I have put film in them and turned it over by hand. All seems to be in working order. I plan to strip these babies down, clean em' up and put em' back together. I'm not in any hurry to get this done so I figure I'll do my homework on them before I jump in with both feet.
I have the afformentioned splicers. I'll soon be sending two of them to new homes and acquiring at least one more.
I have a stack of boxes with various things in them:
DTS drives that were taken out of theatres when the upgrade kits were installed. I use them to replace other ones as they fail. Doing that is not always a good long-term solution, though. I just use them to get the unit up and running until I can get a set of the new ones ordered. These drives usually fail again in a few months. It's good enough to get the theatre running again on a Friday night, though.
I have a box full of Christie belts... 'Nuff said...
I have another box of JBL H.F. driver domes. I had a rash of them getting blown out and there were a few left over from that.
There are a couple other boxes full of parts for various things that I dig through when I get a call. I take what I think I'll need when something breaks. It saves me from having to order things a lot of the time.
Lastly, I have an old Simplex intermittent that I can't remember where I got it. I do remember that I was hoping to clean it up and use it as an emergency spare. It's pretty messed up. I know it's been taken apart so It's probably way out of alignment. I think it's only use is as a "demonstrator" for when people mess one up, I can say, "See what's in here! That's why they are so damned expensive!"
This isn't half the junk I COULD have! I know where there are about 4 or 5 more SH-1000's... a couple of E-7's... a whole pile of random Simplex parts and even a Bauer 16mm projector (A U-3, if I remember right.) I'm always meaning to post all this junk on the "Wanted" forum but I never have time to catalogue it all.
And to answer your next question.... No, I don't have a woman in the house so there's nobody to yell at me when I bring all this junk home.... "Hey, honey! Look what I found! Can I keep it?" 
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-17-2001, 01:47 AM:
Randy, sounds like someone used TOO MUCH WD-40 in the Century!! (Just hadda say that....)
Harry, next time you tear down the 1040 motor, install some sealed bearings in it. That'll clear the oiling problems...Better still, if you can find an old 1050, rebuild the motor and install that motor with the flywheel on your sound head. You should be able to find the 1050's dirt cheap these days.
It'll be easier on the projector during start-up. That ballast resistor that is in the 1040 motor (which is in series with the start winding) is a joke! I think the 1050 has the resistor also. That makes the 1050 even better. Nice easy starts..
Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 04-17-2001, 01:57 AM:
Randy:
Yes that is true about the temperature rise as long as it is within the temperature rating of the insulation of the motor. (Usually rated as "Class")
>>> Phil
Posted by Harry Robinson (Member # 265) on 04-19-2001, 10:44 AM:
The epic of my 1040 rolls on. I think I just over-oiled the motor causing it to heat up pretty bad the other day. I ran another feature a couple of days ago and though it got pretty hot, it cooled down quickly.The wow problem is proving to be a little more vexing. My flywheel seems okay, but if you look down the length of the projector on the gear side there is a perceivable wobble in the flywheel while it's turning. It's slight but I wouldn't be surprised if it was enough to put that irritating waver in the music tracks.
When I rebuilt this unit I replaced the top bronze gear in the gearbox with a Wolk product. According to John Eickhof some of those Wolk gears are out of round, which could contribute to the problem. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. I'm just about to the place where I'm ready to go out and buy a rebuilt SH1000. It's a shame because I've put months into this thing.
Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 04-19-2001, 10:56 AM:
Check if the drum shaft is bent. that would cause the wobble. As someone mentioned ealier, 1040's tend to wow because there is no real speed regulation. If the motor had a flywheel on it, this problem would be of less concern.Josh
Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 04-22-2001, 01:20 AM:
Harry, make sure the projector head is free turning, if it has binds this can cause oscillation to transfer back to the sound drive sprocket thus the 'wow' will happen!
A simple test is to remove the projector completely, then make a loop of film about 2 feet long, thread it through the soundhead from the top, close the lateral guide roller and start it up, then once the flywheel is up to speed, look at how the loop is 'floating' between the sound drum and the sound sprocket
(upper one in soundhead) if it is steady and no bouncing or movement, then it would appear that you have a problem with the projector binding or surging the upper sprocket shaft as it runs. Under normal circumstances, a super head can easily bee turned over by hand
on the main steel drive gear in back, if you can not turn it easily, or it binds at some point, then a good dis-assembly and wash with kerosene is in order! Also, look for a bent
intermediate or main drige gear shaft...as for your sound drum shaft, remove the flywheel, take a dial indicator and attach it to the soundhead casting, then apply the finger to the shaft, set to zero, then slowly rotate the shaft 360 degrees from the drum side and see how much 'run out' you have, .001" is normal, then do the same on the drum surface with the dial indicator attached to the soundhead frame, it should be no more than .0005" run out, if it is more, the drum
shaft needs to be replaced... Good luck!!------------------
John Eickhof President, Chief Slave
Northwest Theatre Equipment Co., Inc.
P.O.Box 258
Wendell, ID. 83355-0258
208-536-5489
email: jeickhof@nteequip.com
Posted by Harry Robinson (Member # 265) on 04-22-2001, 01:07 PM:
John, I may have mis-stated the problem slightly. I think what I'm experienceing is more on the orderof a "quaver" in the audio than an actual wow. It is unoticable on dialogue, but shows up mainly in lagato string or french horn parts. It sounds like they have a little added vibrato. I made a wave file of the sound by feeding the output from the projector straight into my recording software, then burned a CD. If you'd like to hear it I could e-mail a sample of the sound to you.
Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 04-22-2001, 03:28 PM:
Send me the file as well.you have my address
Josh
Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 04-22-2001, 05:19 PM:
I believe fast fluctuations are termed "flutter". Similar cause - something preventing uniform speed of the film past the sound pickup.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-22-2001, 07:40 PM:
Harry, after listening to that machine over the telephone, and the little backlash test you did, I think they machine is in need of work. Sounds like the projector might have a bent shaft somewhere.
But what puzzles me is the shutter shaft backlash turns into a slight bind when the movement starts the pull-down cycle. This does not make any sense. If all shafts ran true, the backlash will be the same - no matter what position it is checked at.That's why I posted this - maybe some of the other pro's who rebuilt Supers can give me a clue. The last Super I overhauled was 26 years ago, and I remember almost nothing.
I suggest pulling the movement and see if the bind is still there. If it is, I would suspect a bent shaft in the gear train, or a gear is going "Wooga Wooga Wooga" instead of running true. (how else can I explain the the "wooga" thing, other than a noise it makes when it is wobbleing around on the floor before it falls flat...)
P.S. - I think we discovered one of the reasons why the motor was running so hot. There is a definate bind in that machine.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-22-2001, 11:17 PM:
No, Paul, I think "Wooga Wooga Wooga" was a right-on explanation!It COULD have gone "Chick-a Chick-a" or it could have gone "Thumpity Thumpity". I (and I think most others) knew almost exactly what you meant.
Someday I'm going to make up a "Projectionist's Dictionary" that explains all these things. Kinda' like the one that they had in Film Notes a while back except that it explains more of the "Wooga's" and the "Klunks". These are the hardest things to debug when people call you and tell you the projector is making a "Funny noise".
I often find myself feeling slightly embarrassed when I have to ask them, "Is it making a WOOGA WOOGA or is it making a THUMPITY THUMPITY sound"?
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-24-2001, 06:21 PM:
Randy, from what I heard of Harry's machine over the telephone, it has those, too. I think his Super Simplex has seen it's better days.
Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 04-24-2001, 10:33 PM:
Harry, could you record the sound of the Super as it runs? My experience has always shown the Super, when in good repair to be a very quiet running head, even with film in it! Normal sound is only a whirr of the shutter blade! You can hardly hear the film being pulled down! It appears your picture head may be the trouble! I ran a pair of Supes that were so quiet, that I actually had both machines running at the same time and didn't know it untill it was changeover time and I discovered I had no film left in the machine I was going to changeover to! (The Owner's son [6 years old] had bumped the motor switch on after I had threaded the machine!!! That's how quiet a Super can be!!------------------
John Eickhof President, Chief Slave
Northwest Theatre Equipment Co., Inc.
P.O.Box 258
Wendell, ID. 83355-0258
208-536-5489
email: jeickhof@nteequip.com