Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Eastman Stock Question about fading

This is topic Eastman Stock Question about fading in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Dave Ganoe (Member # 53) on 04-20-2001, 10:40 AM:

Im sure this would depend on many variables but would it be possible to have an eastman print from 1979 and it not be faded? Is there a way to slow down or stop the fading? Thanks.

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 04-20-2001, 10:58 AM:

Not only is it possible, but I've got several. First, although pre-LPP EK positive prints are notorious for fading, lab work and storage conditions have A LOT to do with how soon and how badly they fade. Eventually all will fade to a greater or lesser extend, with the cyan going first, and then the yellow, leaving only red at the end, but many pre-LPP Eastmans still look like the day they were struck. It just happens that the good ones I have were MGM Labs prints, but I've heard good things about Technicolor Labs Eastmans as well, with the worst being the Delux prints which were generally cranked out like sausages with numerous shortcuts in the processing. The rinses seem to be most critical, as leftover developer can speed the fading process. Finally, although SP's were produced from roughly 1978-1980 (and they generally fade to brownish yellow rather than red/pink), Kodak was already working on LPP at that point. In fact, there definitely were runs of 1980 EK printstock which were actually LPP but not marked. For all I know the same could have occurred late in 1979. In any case, your good luck is not a total aberation, and if it hasn't started to fade by now you will probably have many more years of enjoyment from it. As far as precautions go, the only sure bet is to seal it up and freeze it, but keeping it in a cool environment with moderate humidity is always a good idea, and out of direct sunlight. Good luck.

Posted by Mark DeLettera (Member # 125) on 04-20-2001, 03:01 PM:

Dave,
John Pytlak is out today but, IMHO, I feel that he is quite an expert on this topic. I'm sure he will have plenty of information for you as soon as he logs on!

------------------
Mark DeLettera
Eastman Kodak Co.
Worldwide Technical Svs.
Rochester, NY
mark.delettera@kodak.com
716-588-4189

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 04-20-2001, 03:14 PM:

Mark: I was wondering why John hadn't chimed in yet! Normally, however, he doesn't like to talk about fading EK.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-22-2001, 06:55 AM:

Kodak developed print films with greatly improved dye stability and introduced them in 1979:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/about/chrono3.shtml

"1979 -- EASTMAN Color LF Print film, 7378. Improved cyan dye post processing keeping. Process ECP. Markedly improved cyan dye dark-keeping stability. Discontinued January, 1982.
EASTMAN Color LFSP film, 7379. Same as 7378 except for Process ECP-2. Markedly improved cyan dye dark-keeping stability.1 Discontinued 1983."

At first, they were more expensive, since the dye-forming couplers were more expensive to manufacture. A few years later, Kodak introduced the technology for all ECP (5384):
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/about/chrono4.shtml

"1982 -- EASTMAN Color Print film, 7/5384 Improved cyan dye dark keeping and red sensitivity to process variations. Process ECP-2A. Replaced 7/5381, 7/5383, 7378, 7379. In SMPTE Journal December 1982 and BKSTS Journal August 1983."

Jeff: You are correct that processing (especially washes) and storage conditions greatly affect dye stability. Here are the Kodak recommendations regarding film processing and storage:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/processing/h249/index.shtml
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/h1/preservation.shtml

"Processing -- Processing is one of the most important factors contributing to a film's satisfactory life expectancy. Residual processing chemicals in the film can be detrimental to long life. Residual thiosulfate (hypo) remaining in the processed black-and-white film can fade the silver image by partially converting it to silver sulfide.

This is especially true under conditions of high humidity and temperature. Residual silver salts can also cause density changes. If in doubt, the residual hypo content should be determined. The Methylene Blue Method recommended in ISO 18917:1999, Photography--Determination of residual thiosulfate and other related chemicals in processed photographic materials--Methods using iodine-amylose, methylene blue and silver sulfide, is a worldwide standard test to detect residual hypo.

Thiosulfate salts allowed to remain in color film can also fade the dye images; one dye will probably be affected more than the other two, causing an undesirable change in color balance and a deterioration of the image. Therefore, color films require as much care in processing and washing as black-and-white films."

IMHO, it is very unfair and misleading to make generalizations regarding the quality of laboratory processing, especially since the varied storage conditions of release prints were often quite poor and often caused premature fading.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Pete Lawrence (Member # 130) on 04-22-2001, 10:20 PM:

Another reference on the life of film in general that also deals with vinegar syndrome can be found at The Image Permanence Institute. On the second page look for Publications. The "IPI Storage Guide For Acetate Film" can be downloaded as a PDF file. http://www.rit.edu/~661www1/

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-23-2001, 07:50 AM:

The RIT Image Permanence Institute has a free online "PRESERVATION CALCULATOR" that helps predict how long film will last under various storage conditions. In general, the cooler and the drier, the better.
http://www.rit.edu/~661www1/sub_pages/frameset2.html

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 04-23-2001, 08:24 AM:

John, my apology for slamming DeLuxe Labs...it's probably an oversimplification. There are pleanty of red MGM titles around too! Still, when you go back to the period when Deluxe was primarily/exclusively an "in house" lab for Fox it's very unusual to find a '60's or '70's vintage print that isn't red unless it was on Fuji stock IMHO. Just my personal observation, and certainly not with your background and exposure to the industry.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-23-2001, 09:41 AM:

Jeff: Other than dye transfer and Kodachrome print film, do you have any examples of unfaded release prints made prior to 1979?

Posted by Thomas Hauerslev (Member # 566) on 04-23-2001, 09:50 AM:

In 1991 I ran a 70mm print of the Russian "The Story of Flaming Years". That print dates back to 1963, when it premiere here in Copenhagen (May 6, to be precise) and it had absolutely great color. I seem to remember it was printed onm AGFA stock. It is ironic since the Danish Film Museum stored all their 70mm prints in a hot vault for ages.

An example of non-faded release print is "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" that opened here March 3, 1978. It has not faded. The sprockets are gone, but that's a different story.

I also have some 65mm frames dating back to 1953 with splendid colors. Have a look at this: http://hjem.get2net.dk/in70mm/images/70mmframes/70mmbeor%20(3).jpg

Btw: It's Mike Todds arm you see. It from Venice when he did Todd-AO test shooting in the summer of 1953. Two years before "Oklahoma!" opened.

------------------
All my best
Thomas
..in70mm - The 70mm Newsletter
www.in70mm.com www.dp70.com www.70mm.dk www.hauerslev.com http://hjem.get2net.dk/in70mm

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 04-23-2001, 10:04 AM:

John: As a long-time collector I've managed to stay mostly with true low fade print stocks (including obviously 'Chrome and IB). When I wrote my response, however, I was thinking of pre-'79 EK release prints I've got of "Meet me in St. Louis" and "North by Northwest" which, to my fairly critical eye, show NO fading whatsoever. In fact, they have the cyan bias on the screen typical of LPP's, although overall color balance is very good. Among other processes, we all know that Agfa and Fuji pre-'79 prints tend to hold up relatively well, but I've also got original release prints of "7 Brides for 7 Brothers" and "High and the Mighty" on Ansco stock which have held up very well, albeit with a slight green bias, and those are from the '50's! To give EK is due, however, I recently retired a '76 Eastman "Enemy Below" (yes-Deluxe)in favor of an LPP and it still had such strong cyan content that it was almost too blue! Go figure. Overall, however, older Fox titles are among the worst for fading IMHO.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-23-2001, 10:23 AM:

AFAIK, some of those early film stocks and films from Eastern Europe used the old "ball-and-chain" (Fischer) couplers. Although the dyes might be more stable, there were many disadvantages to the technology.

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 04-23-2001, 01:58 PM:

Your point is well made, John, especially in the case of Ansco. For its relatively stable dye components, there is one hell of a lot of grain and overall loss of sharpness--especially in scope. It's Godawful. It's amazing to me that MGM actually tried to standardize on Ansco negative and positive stock for a short period in the mid '50's except for their blockbusters. Equally amaing, GAF, the successor to Ansco, got itself named the official/exclusive film for Disneyland in the '60's. Just goes to show you what some people will do to save/make a dime!

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 04-23-2001, 04:10 PM:

Ive got a print of Live and Let Die that has the majority of its color left, just a slight pink tinge to the frame. Of course its faded a little bit but sitll highly enjoyable. Its on regular eastman stock, not SP or fuji.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 04-23-2001, 11:06 PM:

>>Other than dye transfer and Kodachrome print film, do you have any examples of unfaded release prints made prior to 1979?<<

If trailers count, i have an original 1973 'Charlotte's Web' trailer on Fuji stock that has INCREDIBLE color for its age, its not even warming, and no 'Fuji Rot' either!!!

Aaron

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 04-23-2001, 11:32 PM:

I had a question about AGFA color. I have a trailer for Alice's Adventures in Wonderland from 71 or 72, stars Peter Sellers. Theres absolutely no fading whatsoever, and it came with a collection from 60s and 70s stuff, so its likely not a rerelease. How is it that AGFA color has held up this well? Some other trailers from the late 60s (indie stuff like Something Weird, Psych-out) are on AGFA stock, and are a tad faded, but look fine.

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 04-24-2001, 09:20 AM:

I readily admit that I don't understand enough about film chemistry to explain why the Germans and Japanese were able to produce competitively priced print (and presumably negative) stock before we were, but I can't say that I have ever seen a significantly faded Agfa or Fuji print. Having said that, I also haven't seen many of either prior to mid-'70's strike dates, so apparently there wasn't a lot of it used earlier. John references the 1979 LF Kodak stock which carried a higher price tag, and I was under the impression that higher priced EK alternatives were available prior to then, but largely ignored by studios who saw no need to pay extra for longer print life. Still, there's no totally free lunch, as Agfa stock seems to be thinner gauge and more prone to breakage, and then there's the fabled "Fuji Rot", although that seems to have been eliminated in 1979-1980 and newer Fuji prints.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-24-2001, 10:49 AM:

I've seen faded Fuji stock from the '70s. It fades slower than Eastmancolor and turns a weird bluish/purpleish color rather than red like Eastman.

I haven't seen much Agfa, and I don't think that I have seen any that was produced before the mid-80s.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-24-2001, 12:28 PM:

Over the years, all manufacturers' color print products have evolved through multiple generations, with changes in the dye-forming couplers and other emulsion technology. One also has to factor in the effect of processing conditions and the tremendous variability in release print storage conditions. Without knowing the specific product types, and how they were processed and stored, it is misleading to generalize based on a few examples of faded or unfaded prints.

I suspect that some of the examples cited may have been films that used older coupler technology that may have had good dye stability, but many other poor characteristics at the time. Or they may just have been processed perfectly, and kept under ideal (cool, dry, vented) conditions.