Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Cyan sound track??

This is topic Cyan sound track?? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 04-20-2001, 08:53 PM:

Any idea how soon they will arrive?

A friend just took over a theater that doesn't have any led readers, and was wondering how soon he will have to make the change.

Thanks,
Brad

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-20-2001, 09:42 PM:

Two years ago, it was said you have to have the mods installed by 1 January 2000. That deadline has come and gone, and nothing happened.

Now I heard of another deadline - the end of this year. We'll see.

Personally, I'll believe it when I see it.

Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 04-20-2001, 10:12 PM:

I have not seen any movement in the large circuits to install the LED's in the older theatre's projectors.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-21-2001, 01:20 AM:

My understanding is that the conversion is on indefinate hold.

All of the old exciters in my area have been converted to red LED by one method or another. (Mostly by JaxLight.) There MAY be some in other regions that aren't converted yet but I don't know for sure. I believe that most have been.

With the cash crunch that we've all been going through I can understand why nobody's in a hurry.

Posted by Robert Golding (Member # 746) on 04-21-2001, 02:46 AM:

I've been informed that a few cyan prints were put out this last January for a test. I'm currently getting ready to put the new led reader in along with a dolby sys., next week. Here's hoping everything goes O.K. We will be ready for what ever happens down the road.

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 04-21-2001, 12:08 PM:

I wouldn't even worry about it. I don't think it will ever happen. Save your money for something else.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-21-2001, 12:26 PM:

We put in an LED reader about 3 years ago that was supposed to read those Cyan tracks, then when the tech came around and checked it out, he found out it would not read them after all. Supposedly because you need a "bright" red LED to read cyan, but this reader is a "dim" red LED. So that was several hundred bucks down the tubes. It did improve the analog sound however.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-21-2001, 01:39 PM:

The most important note is reverse scan readers will improve the analogue sound vastly anyway

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 04-21-2001, 02:15 PM:

When converting to red LED readers it's also important to upgrade the noise reduction to SR (if that hasn't been done already). The signal-to-noise ratio is greater with exciter lamps than with red LEDs but this is overcome by the improved noise reduction of Dolby SR.

One theater I work at has 5 out of 6 screens with A-type NR. Several of these screens are bastard systems with center+surround only or even left-channel-on-left-wall, center-screen, right-channel-on-right-wall, surround-rear-wall. Reverse scan LED systems will certainly improve the sound quality, but the sound systems need upgrading as well.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-21-2001, 04:08 PM:

You need SR to playback a SR film no matter what type of reader you have.
If you are playing a A type film with reverse scan you still wouldn't switch it to SR

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 04-21-2001, 04:38 PM:

Has any played cyan prints through a old PEC sound head?.

I know of one venue that recived a French Cyan print and informed me that they had no problems with their old RCA 1035 Sound Head, they did say that in fact it sounded better than usual.

Any comments?

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 04-21-2001, 06:39 PM:

Many of the theaters in my area are still using exciter lamps with no plans to buy any reverse scan LED readers.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 04-21-2001, 09:50 PM:

Yes, Gordon you're right. I should have clarified that the print defines the noise reduction that you use. I guess I was implying that if the sound processor is A-type or nothing, you use A-type NR, even with SR prints. If theaters are upgrading the soundhead readers, the processors should also be upgraded to properly process the noise reduction encoded on current soundtracks. After all SR was introduced about 15 years ago. How many theaters still have mono only screens? A-type NR only screens? Certainly the vast majority of Hollywood releases have SR analog tracks. However I did make up a MONO print this week, _A Time for Drunken Horses_.

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 04-21-2001, 10:08 PM:

So just another ruse, just like when we all ran out and bought the 6000 ft reels for Warner Bro's big reel shipping change over that never happened. Should've sent them a bill for that little trick.
Good grief Charlie Brown.

Posted by Daryl Lund (Member # 356) on 04-21-2001, 11:30 PM:

I had a component engineering reverce scan installed in my RCA 1050 it works great!!!!

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 04-22-2001, 07:50 AM:

I have a pair of RCA 9031 soundheads (Dolby SR) that need converting to red LED.

Grateful to anyone with first-hand knowledge of this equipment.

Thanks.

Bernard.

PS. Why the delay to cyan soundtrack anyway ?

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-22-2001, 09:29 AM:

>>"PS. Why the delay to cyan soundtrack anyway ?"<<

More to the point....Why bother with the cyan track?

It is an inferior track whose only benefits are for those that will not foot the bill of converting. It is noisier and higher in distortion.

What ever dubious environmental impact the silver redeveloped tracks pose is not an issue with the EPA.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 04-22-2001, 01:29 PM:

Is it possible to hook a reverse scan reader to a mono amp sound system? What tricks involved?
Thanks

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 04-22-2001, 03:41 PM:

Why would you want to hook it up to a mono system. one of the key benefits of the reverse scan is better stereo separation. I am running stereo out of the cells (direct scan)and into a bank of RCA 9362 optical preamps. I have NO noise reduction and it sounds nice enough for me.

Josh

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-22-2001, 03:53 PM:

Even though stereo seperation is one of the pluses of reverse scan better high frequency response is also involved.
As well as the red light source which will be required for cyan tracks.
There appears to be even more intrest from the labs in speading up the conversion since for them it will save on the number of rejected prints due to applicator problems
To hook it up to a mono system just sum the two outputs with a pair of 600-1K resistors depending on the input impedance of the exisitng preamp

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-23-2001, 07:41 AM:

Dolby's website has information about cyan dye tracks:
http://www.dolby.com/tech/ci.os.0012.reddye.html
http://www.dolby.com/tech/ci.ot.0012.ScanRev.html

Here is the Kodak dyetrack webpage:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/dyetrack.shtml

The Ultra-Stereo Lab Technical Forum also has information:
http://www.uslinc.com/

A few dozen cyan dye track prints of "Getting Over It" ("Getting Over Alison") were recently sent by Miramax to theatres equipped with red LED readers, in a successful technology demonstration.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Robert Golding (Member # 746) on 05-09-2001, 02:26 AM:

Hi all, a few weeks ago I stated that I was putting in a LED reverse reader with a Dolby sys. Sam Chavez came up with the units and installed everything and I must say that the improvement has been nothing short of AMAZING. Thanks Sam. For those of you who are waiting to see how it goes, get off it and install it. My old sys work great but the new one is such and improvement that I will even watch a movie that is soft as long as it has a good sound track. This weekend we start "driven" and this should really give the new sys a workout. Again the improvement with this new LED reader is so good that you should at least invest in this. Sam has made some improvements so changing out an LED is very easy. I say this as nobody yet knows how long they will last.
For all of you who think I'm nuts, someday you will see the light at the end of the tunnel. I have had nothing but positive coments from my patrons. My only regret is that I didn't do this a long time ago!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-09-2001, 08:01 AM:

As Robert notes, there are many advantages to upgrading to a new reverse scan red LED reader, even for the current dye+silver analog tracks.

Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 05-09-2001, 04:45 PM:

Most of the trailers in my home collection
have magenta dye tracks. I run them through a
5 star stereo cell head and play them into
a Zenith FM/AM channger stereo through
an Ultra Stereo processor.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-09-2001, 10:00 PM:

Matthew: Your recent trailers are likely magenta+silver tracks, or "high magenta". Older color analog tracks were magenta+cyan+silver. Both required the lab to apply a caustic viscous soundtrack developer to only the soundtrack area during processing to "redevelop" the silver needed to modulate the infrared energy in a white light (tungsten lamp) reader. The cyan dye tracks will not need this complex step in the processing:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/processing/h249/h2409_05.shtml

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-10-2001, 12:30 PM:

John,

Despite your claims, I am finding that in the field about 33% high-magenta the rest conventional.

As to redevelopment...I inquired with a local lab...apparantly, since the wide spread use of the polyester stocks (Kodak's was mentioned) the reject rate due to application related problems have dropped off to near 0. In fact, it is no longer thought about. Then again, this lab is known for quality over quantity...they NEVER contact print more than one stage at a time.

Steve

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"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-10-2001, 12:50 PM:

Steve: I didn't "claim" anything. Matthew described his trailers as having "magenta dye tracks", so I indicated they were likely "high magenta" (magenta+silver).

Most labs do a good job when applicating soundtracks, but it is sometimes problematic on certain films, leading to skips or bleeding/blotches/splashes that stain the picture area.