Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: MUT question...

This is topic MUT question... in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 04-24-2001, 08:17 AM:

This may be a dumb question, but I don't know, so I need to ask. The other night at the show, I peered into the booth where two men were loading film off the MUT and onto the centre of a 3-deck platter. However, the payout of the film from the MUT was about a foot lower than the platter, and the film simply slid (scraped?) across the edge on its way there. Now, I know nothing much about it, other than what a MUT and platter look like and generally what they do, but it struck me that this might be the sort of thing that could cause diagonal scratches on the film??? Or is this normal procedure?

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 04-24-2001, 09:00 AM:

Take a big stick and go "enlighten" those guys on the head a few times, would you?

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Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut

Posted by Randy Loy (Member # 112) on 04-24-2001, 09:11 AM:

I agree with Greg. These guys were obviously of the "don't know and don't care because the film doesn't belong to me anyhow" school of thought. Sounds to me like they're not Film-Techers but sure oughta be!

Posted by Mark DeLettera (Member # 125) on 04-24-2001, 09:32 AM:

The motion picture print films of today are much more durable than in the past, but dragging it across the surface of a platter during make-up does not come under the headings of "Proper Film Handling" or especially "Film Done Right"!
Why did they bother using the MUT? A pencil through the spindle hole may have worked just as good in that case!

------------------
Mark DeLettera
Eastman Kodak Co.
Worldwide Technical Svs.
Rochester, NY
mark.delettera@kodak.com
716-588-4189

Posted by William T. Parr (Member # 677) on 04-24-2001, 09:48 AM:

Dave, You should find out what Movie is in that Auditorium then go watch to see how bad the messed it up. If it is messed up ask to see the manager. Then tell him what you saw them doing with the film, how bad it messed up te quality of your presentation and also send out a letter to the chains home office and tech department. If the Theatre's Home office has any sense to them whats so ever, they will correct that problem immediately. If they seem to be blowing you off also send a copy to the film distrubtor as well so They will know why they recieved a print back with scratches all in it. as mentioned, that way of doing film does not fall into the "Film Done Right " catagory at all. Hope John does not see this, it will probably give him a coronary. No bad luck intended John.

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 04-24-2001, 11:26 AM:

Well, I'm hoping it was only trailers, but my fear is that (and this is going to hurt you Randy) it was the second feature at a drive-in. There was already a film loaded on the bottom I think, though I really only peered in long enough to think, sheesh, I THINK that's wrong! I'm assuming it was "Someone Like You", the 2nd that night, I didn't notice a whole lot wrong during the show, but it was their first showing of it. Crazy thing is, this place is a VERY well kept place, gets painted every year, adding a 3rd screen (2nd went up only a couple years ago), very clean. What is the proper way? Some sort of roller guides on the way over the edge? Thank you, very interesting...

Posted by Joe Smith (Member # 190) on 04-24-2001, 11:54 AM:

quote:
What is the proper way? Some sort of roller guides on the way over the edge?

Dave, I'm far from an expert and I'm sure you'll get many proper responses about how it's supposed to be done, but:

The MUT I'm familiar with has a post/shaft on one corner of the table with several rollers on it. One of the rollers should be aligned with the surface of the platter you're loading so that the film just barely touches (or doesn't touch at all) the surface of the platter at the outer edge. The film has a twist in it as it comes off the MUT roller toward the center of the platter so that it doesn't touch the edge of the platter. As it straightens out toward the center of the platter it will rest on the platter surface. Wish I had a picture of this for you..... It's easier to understand with a picture.

Joe

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-24-2001, 11:57 AM:

I just returned from the emergency room of the hospital after my heart briefly stopped. They revived me with a xenon lamp ignitor. I'm glad Mark filled in for me.

"Film Done Right" is a matter of GOOD COMMON SENSE! As Mark said, Kodak VISION Color Print film is very durable and hard to scratch, but there are limits!

A well-designed MUT has adjustable guide rollers that can be positioned to guide the film onto the platter without rubbing the image area surface of the film. At the very least, there is usually a separate guide roller for each level of the platter. Ideally, the film should be guided onto the platter so the film EDGE just touches the platter at the point of windup.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by William T. Parr (Member # 677) on 04-24-2001, 12:01 PM:

Dave, The proper way would be to use a roller guidance system (should of been one on the MUT already) to transfer the film from the reel to the platter. Even if it is the Middle Platter they should hav been using a guidance system to transport to the platter. Film going on tothe platter shout have roughly a 1/16 of inch between it and the platter until the film is about 1/3 of the way out from the Platter ring. If you would like a good reference for how this should bee done look in the Manuals section of Film-Tech at the Strong Alpha Platter operation. It has a good illustration of a film path to and from thier MUT during Make Up and Break down operations. I use to tear into Projectionist at My theatre if they were caught not using the equipment as described in the Operating manuals.

Posted by Randy Loy (Member # 112) on 04-24-2001, 12:25 PM:

John, I'm glad they got your heart started at the ER. We couldn't do without you here in the Film-Tech forums!

Now I have to go the the hospital myself since Dave ripped my heart out by revealing that this travesty in film handling was at a DRIVE-IN! Just kidding Dave I often see very professional film handling in drive-ins but you can sometimes find some not so great handling in outdoor theatres, just as you can in any kind of cinema. In the end it all depends upon how much pride the projectionist has in his or her work and how willing they are to try to learn to be the best at what they do. Of course I'm preaching to the choir on this issue!

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 04-24-2001, 12:26 PM:

Dave,
What type of platter was it? My AW-1 did the same thing when I got it.

With the AW-1 you can only build and off-load from the center platter. The MUT has a horizontal "turn-table" in which the film is pulled from the MUT over to the platter.

My MUT turntable was about 2 inches lower than the center platter, and the film would just scrape along the edge as it wound onto the center ring. I knew that couldn't be right. Once I got the manual, I figured out how to "adjust" the leveling feet on the bottom of the MUT and raised it to it's proper height. It no longer scapes the sides, now it just blows the circuit in the basement.

------------------
Barry Floyd
Floyd Entertainment Group
Nashville, Tennessee
(Drive-In Theatre - Start-Up)

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-24-2001, 02:54 PM:

William, 1/16 of an inch? That's just too damned risky, for if there is just a slight bounce from the reel, you will get scratches!

I will take pictures tonight of the many wrong ways to align that and the right way and post them here. What's that saying, "a picture is worth a thousand words"?

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-24-2001, 06:16 PM:

Another problem that will cause diagonal scratches on the emulsion side of the film is a badly sprung and out-of-adjustment intermittent sprocket film stripper on some machines, especially if you use a very big loop. This has been a very common problem with the Brenkerts.

Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 04-24-2001, 07:51 PM:

Not sure what type it was Barry, I was walking past, I THINK it was a light blue one, I was more interested in the MUT, as I had not seen one operating before, when I noticed the film scraping over the platter.

Which side is the emulsion side? I'm assuming that this is the more delicate side.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-24-2001, 08:11 PM:

Although Kodak VISION Color Print film is very is durable, either side can be scratched by this kind of mishandling. Back-side scratches usually show up as black on the screen, as do superficial emulsion side scratches. Deeper emulsion scratches are colored -- as the scratch gets more severe, they go from green to yellow to clear.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-24-2001, 09:44 PM:

David what theatre or drivein wa this?
Alos what was the film title and distributor
You may want to give them a call and report this.
Willfull negigance like this is what gives the industry a bad name

Posted by Tim Sherman (Member # 569) on 04-27-2001, 01:00 AM:

I Think i am the one that recieved the print that was damaged there. Was the print of "Wedding Planner". Thats the one that i got tonight with "Platter scratches". I wish people would really learn how to do things right, or atleast take more care and pride in what they do.

Tim Sherman
Aut-O-Rama Twin Drive-In
North Ridgeville, Ohio

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http://www.autoramadrivein.com

come on out to the drive-in and spend a night out with the stars"
ME!!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-27-2001, 05:05 AM:

Here are the pictures I mentioned on the first page.

Properly set up MUT with the roller as close as possible to the platter deck.

Properly aligned MUT roller. Note the film does not actually touch the platter until it has turned completely vertical.

Incorrectly aligned MUT roller. While this alignment will not scratch the film if there is no bounce from the reel, most MUTs do in fact have a certain amount of bounce to them. Thus, this roller is positioned too low against the platter for common safety. In this picture, the inboard edge of the film is touching the platter from the outer edge all the way to the center. This should always be avoided.

Incorrectly twisted film loading onto platter. (Note: this is the correct twist for breakdown.) This puts the emulsion at great risk of severe scratching if the film bounces during the loading process.

Incorrectly positioned MUT. This MUT is way too far away from the edge of the platter. The more distance there is from the center ring to the roller on the MUT, the more any inherent bounce will be increased and thus as the film pulls tight and then slackens scratches can result. (Pic taken at slackened point of the bounce.) Always position MUT as close as possible to the platter to minimize the bounce and to force the film to twist more quickly from the point where it leaves the roller.

This final pic is a closeup shot for anyone who still does not see a problem with the warnings above on how "platter scratches" can happen. Note: the rollers on the platter tree should be checked for this sort of thing, as many makes of platters come from the factory aligned too low to begin with. Couple that with the bendability of some of the brackets used and those horizontal and diagonal scratches can easily happen. Always make sure the film does not touch the platter's deck until it is standing straight up against the film roll on takeup and never take up the film soundtrack down against the surface of the platter if it can possibly be avoided. Running soundtrack down puts the emulsion at a greater risk of scratching if a roller is not aligned properly and puts the emulsion against the brain (many platters not quite tweeked to their "optimum" performance drag the film around the brain).

Also, the practice of holding backtension on the reel of film while loading to the platter is very much undesirable. If done with too much tension, the film can become cinch-mark scratched and regardless, the film roll will not be wound with the same tightness as simply letting the MUT do it's job without human interference. Erratic payout is very common with a roll of film wound with varying tension, which is also why reels of film should always be spliced together onto the largest reels possible before loading onto the platter.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-27-2001, 07:18 AM:

Thanks Brad.

A very clear illustration of how to avoid "platter scratches". Sorry to say, these diagonal scratches happen all too frequently due to careless operators. Avoiding them and "doing film right" is simple common sense.