Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: How does the film get damaged

This is topic How does the film get damaged in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Jamie Hanslip (Member # 707) on 04-25-2001, 08:15 PM:

hello,

Im trying to find out for a report that i am writing, why film gets damage due to
marking the end of reels.

From reading this forum it is seen that every one has a high level of presentation
skills. It seems that no one would damage a film by leaving tipex all over it, and mark
the joins in way that causes poor presentation.

Unfortunately lots of films arrive at are cinema in poor condition covered in, tipex,
chinagraph and sticky labels covering all four sound tracks.

What i want to know is how do these prints get like this. Is due to inexperienced
projectionists, projectionists that were not properly trained, or projectionist that just don't
care, etc.?

Please can i have your views, and any possible links to literature regarding this
subject.

Many Thanks Jamie

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-25-2001, 08:31 PM:

Over the many years that I have been doing this job I have seen many things. Masking tape holding the heads and tails together, No heads and tails and even saw a print where someone used a stapler to staple the heads and tails back on. I have seen the use of shoe polish to mark the end and begining of reels. (Shoe polish is for shoes not film). Some of it is inexperience. Some of it is experience but trying to get things done faster. Some of it is I don't care additudes.

A properly returned reel should be heads up, with all heads and tails spliced back on with splicing tape, and all cues removed. No shoe polish or any markings on the picture area should ever be used or done.

When I started working at the theater that I am at right now. The first thing I did was throw the shoe polish away. John Pytlak can probably provide you with the literature that you may need.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 04-25-2001, 09:09 PM:

>>What i want to know is how do these prints get like this. Is due to inexperienced projectionists, projectionists that were not properly trained, or projectionist that just don't care, etc.?<<

Most unfortunately, ALL THREE REASONS are true in many many cases.

Aaron

Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 04-25-2001, 10:00 PM:

<<Masking tape holding the heads and tails together>>

Why is it not good to attach the heads and tails with masking tape?
The only reason I could think of is that the masking tape might leave some residue on the film.
Is there another reason, or is it just something that bothers people.
Personally, if putting the head on with masking tape is harmless to the film, then i would actually prefer that it were taped on if I was biulding it up next.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-25-2001, 10:10 PM:

This is like asking; why are there wars? There's no single answer. But, I think, the way a theater runs almost always is a reflection on the owner (whether a single person or corperate group.)

But, more specific to your question, people have done all kinds of things to mark the reel ends. I’ve seen masking tape, transparent tape, duct tape. I’ve seen all of those used to either just get the head/tails to stay together; I’ve also seen them used to actually splice the film in a splicer. (I had staples, too!) China markers, felt-tipped pens, small round stickers, a heavy scratch across the frame, yellow colored tape, a hole punched, edge-painting (w/ shoe polish or other pen-like applicators) have all been used to mark the splice.

I think the reason you see this kind of poor practice is mostly because a lazy operator wants to make it super-easy not to miss the splice when breaking down the print.

Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 04-25-2001, 11:34 PM:

A lot of it is hold over from the old days, when many booths were dimly lit holes, and the only soundtrack to worry about was the optical one.

As for shoe polish, believe it or not, when Terri Smith was first giving the Kodak presentations to theatres, it was an accepted practice. There was one type of polish or dye that didn't flake off as badly as others, and a short strip of that on the edge was thought preferrable to the hash marks and other methods that were also used at the time.

I used a tiny self adhesive tab folded-over the sprocket area, and sometimes a sound bloop until I realized that with tape splices and on platters it wasn't needed. The edges of the film have enough difference from reel to reel that they can be told apart on platters where one side of the film is exposed (unintentional pun).

With 5K and 6K floating hub reels it was almost impossible to see the film clearly enough to hit the mark every time, and often the ends of the films had multiple splices from theatres that either couldn't do a changeover right or let the end of the reel flap or get caught. The little adhesive tab gave just enough bump that I could find the splice. Good wet splices could be hard to find compared to tape splices.

As for the stuff going on with platter jockeys ripping film apart, there is no excuse.

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 04-26-2001, 12:05 AM:

I think it will resolve itself into two components, the first is what John Pytlak would bring up: the need for better education & training.

The second may have to do with the lack of a motivator for doing it right, and one which is fairly common in workplaces where the work quality is poor: working at a theater which devalues worth & attacks your dignity, & for low pay, to boot. It's not just passive, either: actively doing a rotten job at work is a form of assertion & rebellion.

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 04-26-2001, 01:37 AM:

What do you guys think about "Zebra" splicing tape? Personally, I think that it's helpful in that we use the Zebra tape at reel changes, and clear tape to fix breaks, replace lab splices, etc. Plus with the stripe being on the edge, try as I may, I have never seen it on screen.

Posted by Jonathan Haglund (Member # 807) on 04-26-2001, 03:00 AM:

The zebra tape i have used seems to be flawed. Its the yellow variety, though I have seen red, and the top and bottom portions overlap at the sproket holes. This ends up cutting out Dolby Digital sound at reel changes, and sometimes the middle stripe cuts out the SR too. The solution to this of course is using 3 perf splice tape, but I havent figured out how to order that yet. Solid yellow spliceing tape is perfect from a break down perspective since its the easiest to see, but its also very noticeable at reel changes. Zebra can be seen in changes and break down, but to a much lesser degree in both instances.

------------------
Jonathan Haglund
Edwards Theatre Circuit, Inc
Park Place 10

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-26-2001, 03:11 AM:

solid color tape of any kind is bad. It blocks all digital and analog soundtracks. And is very noticable on screen. I think they should make the Zebra tape with one solid bright yellow line going down middle that you would cover the frame line with and not have any that goes across.

They should also have one that has a solide black line that goes down middle for non reel change splices to help bloop out the pop in soundtrack for thos non digital theaters and those who have bad splicers that need to be fixed.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-26-2001, 04:48 AM:

Zebra tape is crap. I use clear tape. It is still easy to see the splice when the show is being dismounted. All you have to do is watch for the splice.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-26-2001, 06:32 AM:

"Film Done Right" is usually a matter of good common sense.

Unfortunately, a few misguided or lazy film handlers don't seem to have any common sense!

Check out all 56 back issues of Kodak's "Film Notes for Reel People" and the more recent "Cinema Notes" in the "Manuals" section of Film-Tech. Each issue usually had at least one article regarding proper film handling.

Another excellent resource is Kodak publication H-23 "The Book of Film Care".

A wealth of other information is available free on the Kodak website:
Kodak Motion Picture Films
Free Kodak Newsletters
Film Storage
Student Handbook Projection
Film Damage
Kodak ScreenCheck Training Program

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-26-2001, 07:55 AM:

I'm with Paul on this. I don't like zebra tape, though I have occasionally used it on really splicy prints where it is necessary to have some way to distinguish between reel change splices and repair splices. Otherwise, I like clear tape.

The only other use for zebra tape that I can see is for assembling trailers which will be run on a platter, where there is a need to be able to find the splices quickly when changing them out. I still prefer clear tape and use it exclusively for assembling trailers for reel-to-reel showings.

Posted by Jamie Hanslip (Member # 707) on 04-26-2001, 09:07 AM:

Thanks for all the replies,

Sorry I didn't make myself clear in the first post. I have worked as a projectionist for 4 years now, so I know how the film gets damaged. What I want to know is who damages them. I was trained to respect the film and every projectionist I know treats the film with respect to, in theory no prints should arrive with tipex over the picture and sound tracks, but it happens all the time. Is this due to lack of training on some companies behalf, or inexperienced floor staff left to show the film, or bad training practise which is feed from chief to trainee who then goes onto train himself.

What are your experances.

Thanks Jamie.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-26-2001, 09:10 AM:

Jamie asked: "Is this due to lack of training on some companies behalf, or inexperienced
floor staff left to show the film, or bad training practise which is feed from chief to trainee who then goes onto
train himself."

All of the above.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 04-26-2001, 11:13 AM:

If you are having problems with 'zebra' tape try Splicemark tape. In my travels I have found that Splicemark doesn't appear to affect the SRD soundtrack, and if used properly doesnt leave any nasty colored lines at splices. It is magenta colored, although I believe there is now a yellow version as well, both are only 'striped' on the edges.

Aaron

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 04-26-2001, 02:02 PM:

OK this is one of my major pet peeves, the whole "I Have to use yellow tape and china marker to see the splice" Maybe I just have good eye site but I can take my mini mag-lite and very clearly see the splice, I can also put my index finger on the top of the film-roll as it spins and feel the splice go bye, THERE IS NO NEED TO USE SOLID COLOR TAPE. I ran a 7 screen booth and did all the print work. I had as many as 7 breakdowns a thursday night, and I didnt use solid colored tape or anykind of marking. I hear people who work at smaller theatres complain about having 2 breakdowns and how its so good that they used the colored tape.

------------------
--Sean McKinnon
Asst. Manager/Projectionist
Gloucester Cinema 1-2-3

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-26-2001, 02:39 PM:

In most cases, you can also see a slight difference in the "gloss" of each reel's sidewall as the roll sits on the platter, due to subtle differences in the cut each different slitter knife makes, and the slightly different scuffing of the edge of the film for each reel on different printing and processing machines at the lab. Kodak print film is slit from a 54-inch wide roll into 38 separate 35mm strips, so it's likely each reel is from a different strip:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/sizes.shtml

IMHO, much of the problem is just having enough work light to see well enough to do a good job. If shows are running when you are loading or unloading a platter, use a spotlight to brightly light your work area without shining light into the theatre. With good light and a bit of experience, you'll usually be able to see the reel changes as the film sits on the platter, without need of marking the film in any way.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-26-2001, 04:30 PM:

The practice I teach is to mark the reels (see "building 101" in the tips section) and to feel for the splice as the reel starts to near that mark on the shipping reel. The projectionist does not even need a light on the platter to break down in this manner. I can show kids fresh out of the popcorn stand how to break down in that manner using ultrasonic splices with no problem, so I see no reason why anyone can not find a tape splice made with clear tape.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 04-26-2001, 04:51 PM:

Of all the people here I probably have the worst eyesight, but I still use clear tape exclusively for trailers and reel changes at my 'platter house.' The trick is you do not look for the splice. Oh, you do find the general area of the splice by sight, as pointed out above its quite easy to see the different reels as they lay on a platter. But when it gets close to the splice, you feel for it. I myslef place my index finger on the gop of the roll and my thunb on the sprockets. As I get close to the reel change I slow down the platter considerably until it going about 1 or 2 revolutions per scond (approximately). At this rate you will feel the rythmic bump of the splice as it goes by. The second you don't feel that stop the platter and the splice will either be right in from of you or back a foot or two. The only time this doesn't work is if your print has sprocket damage. But of course that makes finding the splice a pain in the rear no matter what kind of tape your using.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-26-2001, 06:41 PM:

We used to use colored tape if the film we were running had a lot of splices. Not as much of an issue now with poly film.

I'm with the "clear tape ONLY" crowd! If you really feel the need to mark the reels with something colorful, use "edge mark" tape. It's 1/4" wide and made from the same stuff as colored splicing tape.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-26-2001, 07:20 PM:

Kudos for all of you on this page! Opaque or Zebra tape is not needed, period!

But, I will admit I use opaque tape as marker splices at the very start. I use them to the gauge the hand douser opening on the first preview. I always know where the splice is, and use a counddown in my mind waiting for the splice to go through the film trap. I never come on the screen by waiting for the change-over douser to open.

I like the fade-ins....

I hate that when it goes "WHAM" and you are on the screen. I think I am a little more professional than that.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-26-2001, 08:08 PM:

(i) I agree with John P's point about poorly-lit projection boxes being a factor in unsatisfactory film handling. I once did some relief shifts at a cinema where the work lighting was totally inadequate and had to be kept off as much as possible because of the enormous portholes (and their proximity to the back row of seats). I very quickly realised why all the prints in that box had a good 100ft of each reel edge-marked with chinagraph. You wouldn't have a hope in hell of seeing the end of a reel otherwise because the light was so bad. It would also explain why I discovered two trailers joined to each other out of rack. When I mentioned to the chief that I'd fixed the join, he told me that he'd been trying to correct it for the last week!

(ii) In reply to Jamie's query about who inflicts the damage, I agree that lack of training and laziness have a part to play. But I'd also suggest that old and worn equipment which employers on a tight budget aren't willing to properly maintain are also an issue. Here's an example: there's a cinema near here which regularly sends us prints on crossover, nearly all of which arrive coated with heavy deposits of projector oil. Eventually I got so fed up with this that I 'phoned the place and spoke to their projectionist about it. She was very apologetic, and explained that a gasket was disintegrating where the intermittent unit was mounted to the chassis. However, no-one there was confident to remove an intermittent and the cheapest quote they'd had for an engineer call-out to come and replace the gasket was £250. The manager said he couldn't afford that, so she just keeps topping up the cross box as its oil gets sprayed onto the films.

The projectionist has correctly identified a problem that is damaging prints, quite sensibly realised that she does not have the necessary skills to put it right, but then finds that she gets no backup from above.

What to do about this? For one thing, if the distributors started billing this place for ultrasonically cleaning, rewashing and polishing all the prints they spray with oil, the manager might realise that £250 on repairs is money well spent...

Posted by Joe Schmidt (Member # 822) on 04-26-2001, 09:11 PM:

It's mostly caused by the Executive$$$uite bent upon enriching itself and refusing to hire projectionists, and to do necessary repairs, as oil leaks. All part of the same overall problem.

As to the old shoe polish trick, I have been guilty of doing this also, but the trick is ONLY USE A LITTLE BIT. My preferred way is mark the splice with a small piece of masking tape across it, about 3/32" or so wide. Ya gotta do something, it is HELL to miss the splice while breaking down [phone rings] and then have to back up trying to find it.

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 04-27-2001, 12:43 AM:

Zebra tape seems to leave a lot of yellow and clear residue behind - almost as bad as the white tape. Those two have been responsible for some of the nastiest heads & tails after first run.

There's a red-lined splice mark tape made to be less of a problem with LED readers. I dunno if that works, but it is the least visible on the screen.

Posted by Philippe Laude (Member # 79) on 04-27-2001, 01:38 AM:

Working with 12000 feet reels on a home made tower similar to the one used by Greg Mueller (see picture of his screening room), I confess I use masking tape at reel change!
High quality masking tape doesn't leave any residue on film, can be eaily peeled off, even months later, is not seen on screen but visible at breaking down. On the other hand, low quality masking tape has all the drawbacks you blame: sticky residues, decomposing, etc.
Someone here at Film-Tech highly recomends the use of "artist tape". Having used a small amount of it incidentally brought from the States, I agree whith him but just could not find it here in belgium.
My conclusion: High quality masking tape is as good as artist tape!

Philippe

------------------

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-27-2001, 08:33 AM:

"Artist's Tape" is designed to not leave a residue, although its' holding power is not very high. Although I don't recommend using it to mark splices, it is handy for taping down the ends of film rolls, or putting a write-on label on the leaders:

"3M White Tape #256
3M-256/75 3/4" width
3M-256/1 1" width

3M Scotch™ Brand
Artist's Tape
Ideal for flapping and
hinging, holds firmly yet
removes easily without
damaging artwork or
leaving a sticky residue.
Perfect for use on most
illustration board, photos,
acetate, and paper."

http://www.camerastore.com/dl_cat_K/-K01_tape.html

Posted by Jamie Hanslip (Member # 707) on 04-27-2001, 12:57 PM:

Thanks very much for the replies.

This research is for project report, unfortunately i need to back my own views up
with real literature. You guys have been great in providing a source for that
information.

With regards To Leo, The cinema in question is not Harbor Lights by any chance.
As you know we have very large portholes with back row seats near them. If so
then the reason that they are big, is so that the 16 mm projector can be wheeled up
and used. You also commented on the use of china graph, this is the method favored
by my chief, although he makes sure it is very lightly applied. I use colored tape the
same thickness as splicing tape. This is placed above the sprocket holes and over the
top of the film.

P.S,

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Thanks Jamie.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-29-2001, 09:17 AM:

Jamie - no, it's not Harbour Lights. I'm not going to name the cinema on this public forum because I don't want to upset or embarass anyone who works there and who might be reading this. But I will say that it is not a City Screen site. As I have written before on this list, a lot of substandard film handling takes place more because of substandard facilities than substandard projectionists. It was for this reason that I didn't feel it appropriate to name the venue.

And on the subject of public lists: my e-mail to you of last week was off-list and private, because it discussed a third party. The cinema business in this country is pretty small, and from your public reply it will be obvious to lot of people who I referred to. It was for this reason that I e-mailed you confidentially, and I'd appreciate it if any replies would be sent the same way.

If you look in the top right of the 'Forums' screen, you'll see that it says 'Registered Members - 728'. How many people regularly post messages on this site? I'd guess 40-50 at most. That means that the other 678-688 have either 'left' (as in, do not intend to re-visit the site but have not asked Brad to delete their registration) or are lurkers. That's an awful lot of potential lurkers, any one of whom might be the person you're talking about in a post. And you don't even have to be registered in order to read the messages here, which means that anybody and everybody is able to read what you or I write. The bottom line is that anything posted on this site (or any other listserv or newsgroup, even those with restricted membership) is effectively public, which was why my e-mail of last week was sent to you personally and not posted on this site.

OK, rant over.

I use Chinagraph for edge marking as well, and believe that it does not do any significant harm if (i) it is applied to the non-soundtrack side (hence I run prints base out on platters), (ii) it is applied as lightly as possible, and (iii) on 15-20 feet at the absolute most. This is QUITE enough to see the end of a reel under adequate worklights. As John P points out, it is sometimes possible to spot reel ends through stock changes (and lab joins too), but sorry, I'm too much of a wuss to rely on this when packing off 5 prints starting at midnight on a Thursday...

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 04-29-2001, 02:29 PM:

That third party in qestion has seen this topic (Harbour Lights) and is not pleased at all.

A word of advice to the topic starter, Think before you start to quote names in the cinema industry with comments you make about them!.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-29-2001, 05:56 PM:

I have e-mailed the third party and apologised for my part in this incident.

A further word of advice to the topic starter - since I joined this site in the middle of last year I've noticed two or three VERY senior figures in the UK cinema industry post just once or twice, i.e. very infrequently. That fact that they're not posting all the time doesn't mean that they're not reading other people's contributions. To re-iterate: Internet forums of any description are very public places and if you have anything less than 110% positive to say about a named individual, do so privately or not at all. By doing so in public, then at the very least you'll cause needless distress and the worst possible outcome is ending up in court.

I'm sure people have said less-than-positive things about me. When two people do that in private, I don't mind. If they made such comments in a way that all the world could hear them, then I'd probably be quite upset - that's why I didn't choose politics as a career!