Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Marking Reel Splices

This is topic Marking Reel Splices in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002262

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 05-12-2001, 12:04 AM:

What would be considered a satisfactory means of marking reel splices? Colored tape is out as it is seen on screen and affects all the sound tracks. Zebra tape, likewise. Edge tape affects SDDS. Shoe polish boogers up SDDS and is claimed to flake. I've used all the methods above at one time or other, and they all make breakdown more convenient, is there something else?

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 05-12-2001, 12:15 AM:

This topic has been done to death but here goes.

If you MUST use a colored splice tape use Splicemark tape as it doesn't affect the reading of digital soundtracks. (I have yet to have a digital track drop out at a Splicemark splice...)

Aaron

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-12-2001, 12:29 AM:

Mark the film reels and feel for the splice during breakdown. There is no reason to use any form of marking at all. Look at the Building 101 tips to see how to mark the physical reels.

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 05-12-2001, 01:30 AM:

A very simple way to mark splices for breakdown is to use a piece of Permacell (?) tape at just prior to the splice. This tape is like maskingtape, only non residous, so no damage to the film. It is very plain to see and you know where the splice is coming up.

Anyone who is breaking down prints, IMO, should be able to SEE the splices (or reel change) by the differnet texture/contour of the film itself. Look at a film on the platter and tell me you can't see the reels by the contour/color variations in each individual reel....

My guys build in using only clear tape anyway.

Aaron, where could I go about SEEING a picture of the Splicemark tape you mentioned?

------------------
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-12-2001, 09:49 AM:

I find the eprad cue marker prevents a paint marker from dripping into the sdds area. I often use a ultraviolet marker or a yellow one. It doesn't flake or drip and I have never had a problem with a SDDS dropout

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-12-2001, 02:58 PM:

Although I am not the one who has to break down or build up a film on a platter, a skilled projectionist should be able to get by with using clear tape only.

I'm not around film prints all day, but I can easily look at a film on a platter and tell where each reel begins and ends. Kinda reminds me of the rings on a round tree stump.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-13-2001, 12:16 AM:

I have been telling my people to use regular zebra tape, per company policy but to make their splices like this:

(Note: Simulated image.)

Only one of my theatres has SDDS. The guys who run that booth are some of my better "guys". They know not to block the tracks and they adjust the tape accordingly. (So only one yellow band shows between the inboard sprocket holes.) For the other theatres this is a moot issue.

What you get by doing this is all the "benefits" of zebra tape without any of the yellow showing on the screen or causing Rice Crispies in your soundtrack (Snap-Crackle-POP! )
Yes, it's easier to find your splices when you break down but the MAIN reason I use this method to mark my "reel-change splices" is to that it's easier to tell them from "repair splices".

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-13-2001, 02:19 AM:

Company policy? What a stupid policy that is! If the projectionists at a theater are intelligent enough to not need yellow tape, the corporate guys should be pleased and not punish them to use the inferior quality of that tape. Yellow tape works best in a trash can.

Also, just how often does your theaters have damages necessitating the use of "repair splices"? If it is more than about once a year, you have bigger problems to worry about than the kind of tape being used.

Sorry for the rant Randy, but those two comments just strike me as bas-ack-wards. Great illustration though.

Also, if the SDDS reader is aligned properly, you can use solid opaque tape and not have a dropout. If that splice above would drop the SDDS audio, your reader is not aligned properly.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-13-2001, 11:42 AM:

Sorry, most of us don't have the $$ that you do and can't buy a Metric splicer. When we come across lab splices, busted sprocket holes and other random junk like that we have to use our lowly tape splicers to repair it.

I couldn't give a rat's ass about SDDS, personally. I only have one of them to work on. Basically I hook up the computer to it, take the readings and write them in my reports. When the thing stops working I'll go put new LEDs in it. If I have problems with it that require more than that I'll do my homework. Until then I could care less if the damn thing fell off the face of the earth...

Consequently if there are splices covering the SDDS... who cares.

I started using the clear part of the zebra tape when we started getting the Neumade tape that didn't have the dashed cross bar. Up until that time I was just carefully placing the tape so that the soundtrack was in the clear space between the dashes. If you look closely at the Neumade tape without the dashes, the edges of the tape are "dithered" (or whatever) I guess the idea is that it will make less noise going through. Still, it sounds like a bowl of Rice Krispies to me.

Finally after a couple of times I got peeved off and started using clear tape and using a Sharpie® marker to put a dot on the tape so I could tell the differences between rell-changes and repairs. Well, there were a couple of people who couldn't find the splices without the zebra tape and they whined to management. I went grumbling off to the work bench to make up the next movie and I just thought of that out of the blue. I've been using it that way ever since. The whiners are satisfied and I can do a good job of putting the films together.

Posted by Patrick de Groot (Member # 858) on 05-13-2001, 01:07 PM:

I just use some transparent tape (usualy one side of the film) and puts a little piece of some white address stickers which "glues" on the opposite side of the analogue track (preventing blocking of the SRD track). SDDS... well they say it's has some backup on one side for the other part.
And in my opinion if a digital system can't handle this kind of "trouble" it is a BAD system... But then again, I don't have any experience with digital systems...
We don't use platters, we're using two
filmspools for long and one spool for shorter movies (ie disney).

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 05-13-2001, 06:27 PM:

>>Aaron, where could I go about SEEING a picture of the Splicemark tape you mentioned?<<
http://www.cinprod.com/images/products/tape.jpg

It's the red (actually magenta) colored tape.

If you'd like I can send you a roll to try out...

Aaron

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-13-2001, 06:31 PM:

Varying opinions and procedures on reel splices are another reason why DTS is a better system. Certainly a SDDS reader or Dolby Digital reader should not drop out at the reel splice if properly aligned. However, I've seen well maintained systems do it at the splice.

The maximum number of frames SR*D and SDDS can miss before defaulting to analog is only 4 frames. With DTS, the max is 48 frames. Depending on the data that is obscured by a solid reel splice, you may or may not get a dropout. It just depends on what the SR*D or SDDS system was trying to do at the time.

If you have a "repair splice" on a print, much of the time the frames missing will usually cause a short fallout to analog on most any SR*D or SDDS system. I've seen DTS get through a missing chunk of film removed from a wraparound mishap without missing a beat.

Posted by Aldo Baez (Member # 790) on 05-13-2001, 06:45 PM:

The way I do it is I use the solid yellow tape, but when a reel changes I cut half of the very last frame off (two sprockets worth), then cut half of the very first frame of the reel, and splice the solid yellow tape onto that. That way when it goes through its covering one complete frame, not two, and its barely noticeable. Its like part of the scene change took 1/24 of a second longer.
I don't have problems with the reader dropping out or anything like that, and when we do repair splices we always use the clear tape. And its *much* easier to ear down, just wait for the bright yellow part of the print.

And its very easy to see the reels when the film is on the platter as you can see the yellow pretty well.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 05-13-2001, 08:31 PM:

>>If you have a "repair splice" on a print, much of the time the frames missing will usually cause a short fallout to analog on most any SR*D or SDDS system.<<

In almost all of these cases it is because after repairing the print, there is a slight bit of damaged soundtrack, whether its from trying to save as much of the crinkled,mangled film as possible, or from the track being scratched or stretched in the process of brainwrapping which causes misreads and subsequent dropouts. DTS is rarely if at all affected by this type of damage.

Aaron

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-13-2001, 09:59 PM:

For me, finding the splices isn't much problem at all. When I'm getting to the place where the splice ought to be I just gently run my finger along the top "corner" of the print as it spins. I can feel the splice going by with each rotation. As I get closer to the place where the splice should be I am progressively slowing down the make up table. On the first revolution when I don't feel the splice going by anymore I stop. By the time the inertia wears off and the thing finally comes to a halt I usually find the splice is within a foot or two of the reel. Unless I am suffering from an attention lapse, I rarely miss by more than a couple-three feet.

Even when your splicer is working almost perfectly you can still feel the tape going by. It's just harder and you need to pay attention more closely. What I use the zebra tape for is so that when I get to a splice I can instantly tell if it's at the end of a reel or if it's there for another reason. When I don't see that little flash of yellow I know that I don't have to stop unless I want to check to make sure the splice is still good before I put the reel back in the can.

Essentially I can usually find A splice with my eyes shut. I use the zebra tape to find THE splice.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 05-13-2001, 11:49 PM:

Brad said:
*********************************************
Company policy? What a stupid policy that is! If the projectionists at a theater are intelligent enough to not need yellow tape, the corporate guys should be pleased and not punish them to use the inferior quality of that tape. Yellow tape works best in a trash can.
*********************************************
I agree with Brad's comment.

Trouble is, I have seen some projectionists that don't have enough sense to come in out of the rain.

You get what you pay for.

And, I have seen some corporate execs, theater owners, and theater district managers that don't know the difference between a projector and a camera, let alone, their butt from a hole in the ground.

If you are a first-run house, use clear tape. It doesn't take that much difference in time when it comes to dismounting the print for shipping.

However, when you have a trash print running in a trash house, the high number of splices already in the film makes it very difficult to determine which splice is yours, and which is not.

Then, it could be a toss-up (even though it is not necessarly correct) to determine what kind of marking is employed to ID your splices when time comes to dismount the print.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 05-14-2001, 02:36 AM:

I agree with everything Randy and Paul said in their last posts. You always feel for the splice, you don't look for it. In a first run platter house there is no reason for having to mark your splices. If you are having so many problems that you can't tell repair splices from reel change splices you have far greater worries that this.

That being said, I see nothing wrong with edge marking tape if you're not using SDDS or if you are and it doesn't cause a dropout, so long as it is removed afterwards. Your method for using Zebra tape Randy is genious. If your prints are so splicy that you need to mark the splice somehow, Randy's method seems ideal.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-14-2001, 04:13 AM:

If y'all would mark how full the reel is with a piece of white tape and a marker before starting to unspool the reel, then you won't need to worry about not being able to tell the difference between repair splices and reel splices. You'll know because the reel is either as full as it was when it came to you or it is not. Check the image below:

Also, reel change splices always have different scenes on each frame (unless it is a fade out/fade in). It is rare that a lab splice will be on a scene change. I've also noticed funny little "circles" in the upper right corner of the outgoing reel for four frames that are 24 frames before the last.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-14-2001, 07:32 AM:

The most elegant solution is the one outlined by Brad and Joe --- put a piece of tape on the inside of the shipping reel flange and mark how "full" that reel is. On tear-down, it's then a simple matter of watching for the splice when you have nearly "filled" that reel. Also, Bobby is correct that the subtle differences in the film's slit edge usually allow seeing the different reels like "growth rings" on a cut tree stump.

Randy's use of "Zebra" tape in a way that doesn't use the cross-frame line is less disruptive. That cross-frame line is visible on "scope" prints, and does disrupt the sound. BTW, the tape was designed to offer the option of using it either way.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 05-14-2001, 05:26 PM:

I am not in favor of using a magic marker to indicate how much film is on the reel, for several reasons:

1. Some reels are black in color.
2. After it has been through several theaters, the mark would be bogus, anyway.

If a hunk of tape was used, it might be a better idea, as long as you take everyone elses tape off the reel..

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-14-2001, 05:31 PM:

Paul, that's the idea. ALWAYS attach a piece of tape before you mark. It certainly would be worthless if this practice caught on and reels had many marks right on their surface.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 05-14-2001, 06:35 PM:

OOPS!

Joe, I didn't see the tape on that reel in your illustration. Sorry...

Posted by Danny Hart (Member # 659) on 05-14-2001, 07:20 PM:

There is NO need for you to mark the film in any way, or use anything other than clear splicing tape.

You must be able to estimate the size of a reel when you're spooling off. It's also visible on the platter; the reels are almost always slightly different shades of brown (with the right lighting).

You should feel for the join by the edges and when you get to it, compare it with the reference frame you left on the leader/tail when you put the film together.

Posted by Danny Hart (Member # 659) on 05-14-2001, 07:28 PM:

Another idea would be to buy a UV pen and lamp. You could mark the film as much as you like and wherever you like, it wouldn’t affect the picture or sound. Just be sure you know what you're looking for when searching for your UV marked joins under the UV lamp. Good for changeovers, too.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-14-2001, 08:22 PM:

Hmmmmm.... Marking changeovers with UV pen... Interesting!

I wonder if there's a brand of pen that will fluoresce under the wavelengths of UV that the xenon lamp outs out? The light from a xenon will make the antifreze in the cooling pumps glow. Why not a spot on the film?

Man! If done properly, you could get your C/Os frame-accurate every time without even trying!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-15-2001, 08:32 AM:

The use of a transparent dye that fluoresces under ultraviolet illumination has been suggested by several, and published in BKSTS "Cinema Technology". Gordon McLeod mentions his use of the method. Kodak has not evaluated the long term effects of such dyes on the film. Perhaps a clear splicing tape that fluoresces could be developed, so nothing needs to be applied to the film.

The most elegant methods do not put any permanent marking on the print, and are not visible or audible to the audience.