This is topic Copying DTS CD-ROMs in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-23-2001, 12:35 AM:
Well, I had a hunch it would happen and I was right. My friend Jack is in a bit of a pinch here regarding the prints of "Pearl Harbor" he is supposed to receive in the next day or two. He needs more than one set of DTS discs per print since the higher ups want him to interlock two prints across screens 3, 4, 5 and 6. The distributor is now only promising one set of discs per print (which I kind of suspected in the first place). So he needs me to make a couple CD-R dubs on my computer. On the surface it would seem pretty easy. But, having the experience I have with computer systems, I know all kinds of snafus are just prone to rise especially if you have a deadline to meet. To complicate things, my friend's theater already has ads on the radio selling his engagement of "Pearl Harbor" with the claim of DTS on ALL engagements --which goes to compete against the new Dickinson Theaters build opening up this week (which was supposed to have digital on every screen, but actually only has 2 DTS units and Ultra Stereo on the other 10 auditoriums). Jack's theater will have the better sound, but I need to help him do it. Having analog on any of his shows would be an embarrasment, especially with how good his auditoriums sound playing DTS. Sorry for the long winded story.I know some of the fellows here have been successful at making CD-R copies of DTS-CDs. I'd like to know any kinds of "gotchas" to watch out for in making CD copies of DTS cinema CD-ROMs.
FYI, I'm using Adaptec EZ-CD Creator 4 software. It usually does fine when directly copying music CDs and even data CDs with the CD Copier utility. I'm just wondering if there is anything that might prevent such a run-through on DTS discs. I know these are "data" discs and not in LPCM music layout (like a DTS audio CD would be structured). But any kind of procedural help on the part of the participants of this forum would be highly appreciated.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 05-23-2001, 01:00 AM:
Although it can be easily done, I would check with Karen at DTS to see if permission can be granted to copy the disks. I personally would not do it without permission. It is not worth it. Heaven only knows what kind of copyright laws DTS has to follow.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-23-2001, 03:04 AM:
Your Adaptec direct cd copier program will work just fine. So long as you just make a direct dupe and do not mess with the layout (as if you were assembling a music or data cd), it will work without problems. I have done this a lot where I needed to interlock, or one of the cds came in broken, so I duped one from the second print, or I got two "A" discs and no "B" disc, so I borrowed a neighboring theater's disc for a half an hour, etc, etc, etc.I cannot imagine DTS having a problem with a theater duping cds for use with interlocks. The theater manager is in effect making another "print" when he interlocks it. Duping a set of cds for the audio is no different from that as far as I am concerned. I would be extremely disappointed with dts if they had a problem with it.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 05-23-2001, 03:06 AM:
Brad, so would I, but you never know these days....
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-23-2001, 03:46 AM:
I agree 100% with Brad. Direct CD Copy is the best way to go. For best results, read the disc with the same player that will do the writing. Trust me on this. Also, it helps to read at the same speed you will write. Not necessary but if you want it to be 100% bit perfect that is the only way. But I believe DTS CDs have enough error correction that this shouldn't be necessary.I also agree that DTS should have no problem with this. Or would they rather have the movie played in Dolby Digital or SDDS? I doubt it.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-23-2001, 03:55 AM:
I have two cdrom drives in my personal machine. One is a cd burner and the other is a generic 50x drive. I have made many a copy direct from one drive to the other, but occasionally have found that errors will happen. It is rare, but if you want to make SURE the dupe is perfect, click the box to "copy disc to hard drive first". The hard drive can spit out the data faster and more continuously than a cd drive can. 
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 05-23-2001, 05:05 AM:
Bobby,No problem copying dts CDs. Just make a direct copy.
I agree with Brad AND with Paul. I'm sure that there are many copyright on that disks but I'm sure that, in this case, DTS will not interfere with Bobby. He is just trying to have dts sound in its theaters.
If he cannot have more than one set of disk, it's a distributor and/or DTS fault, not bobby's.
Bye
Antonio
Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 05-23-2001, 05:40 AM:
Could you use some kind of audio delay
arrangement when interlocking a DTS feature
wih an insufficient amount of DTS players?
Trying it with a looped tape delay with
more than two tracks on the tape is expensive
and sometimes impractical. Using an arrangement involving hard drives and/or
CD-R and/or CD-RW drives for audio delay
would be beter,but audio sync would would
need to be figured out while interlocking.
Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 05-23-2001, 07:43 AM:
Matthew,I think that bobby has as many players as screens! I can't realize how to project in dts in more than one screen with just one player...
Bye
Antonio
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 05-23-2001, 09:17 AM:
I know what you mean by those bugs, when you're copying CDs. I have made a compilation disk of various movie scores on a cd and tried several times to make a copy of that disk, but It always has a glich in it somewhere. A silent spot. Does it really make a difference to use those blank CDs that are certified for music? Or is it something I'm doing wrong with the copy software. I have two drives, one a regular cd rom and the other an HP burner. I always copy at the slowest rate hoping to not rush the copy process. What am I doing wrong????------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-23-2001, 09:27 AM:
Yes, there is no problem regarding the number of DTS players in the theater. The Carmike 8 has 7 DTS units, with an 8th DTS unit apparently on the way (either in the form of a DTS-6AD or a DTS-6D packaged with a Smart 5.1 capable cinema processor).I too would be surprised if DTS, or the film distributor (who actually holds the copyright on the audio contained on the disc) would have any problem with dupe CD-Rs made. Such CDs are completely useless without the film print. DTS cinema CD audio gets the corresponding film title number, reel number, frame number and other synch information from the time code on the print. The first two DTS movies ("Jurassic Park" and "Heart and Souls") did not have the film ID information so you had cases of dinosaurs roaring in a mild supernatural comedy. That can't happen now. You have to have the correct discs and correct film print for the audio to play at all.
Anyway, the plan is to just throw the CD-R dupes in the garbage once the interlock showings of "Pearl Harbor" are finished.
If the "Pearl Harbor" prints don't come in today, I may try a dry run using discs from the one show on screen 7 that has no DTS player at the moment. The idea of dubbing the CD image to the hard disc sounds pretty good. I have plenty of space (80GB HDD divided up into 2 logical 40GB drives).
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-23-2001, 11:43 AM:
The "music" CD-R disks are no better or worse than regular CD-Rs. They exist only because of lobbying efforts by the RIAA to intentionally cripple standalone (non-computer) consumer-grade CD burners to prevent them from writing to standard CD-R media. The "music" CD-R blanks are more expensive because part of the cost is a "tax" which is distributed to RIAA member record companies in order to ostensibly defray the cost of making unlicensed copies of recordings whose copyrights are owned by RIAA members. Of course, this leaves out the possibility that many consumers might want to use their "fair use" rights under the US copyright law to make the permissible single backup copy of copyrighted works or might even want to copy music to which they own the rights (for garage bands, etc.) or which is in the public domain. Also, unlicensed copying of music owned by non-RIAA members is not addressed.
Sorry for the rant. I'm totally against copyright infringement, but I also believe in the concept of "fair use" (for example, my right to make a tape recording or CD compilation for use in my car or in a portable player of recordings which I already legitimately own in other formats). I also disagree with the idea that the RIAA _is_ the record industry (it isn't, and primarily exists to represent the interests of the major labels and not those of the smaller record companies, who may well suffer even more from copyright infringement). I guess this whole thing just sort of irks me because it has been demonstrated many times that copy-protection schemes for software (computer code, music recordings, etc.) don't work; they don't solve the real problem of the big-time pirates, yet they do succeed in annoying legitimate users who want to make use of the software within the allowed constraints of "fair use."
Note, also, that professional-grade standalone CD-R units do not require these special disks, just as professional-grade DAT machines (which, today, includes pretty much every DAT machine in current production) ignore SCMS coding, which was the product of a similar RIAA lobbying effort. As it happens, SCMS pretty much killed DAT as a consumer format, and is easily bypassed, as anyone who knows people who collect (legitimate) Grateful Dead or Phish bootleg tapes is fully aware.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-23-2001, 12:01 PM:
Personally I would not hesitate to make copies as long as they stay in the booth and are destroyed after the run of the film. Just return the originals with the feature when it leaves !
Theatre owners pay allot of $$ for DTS players and the usual lack of the seperate discs for most films has long been my gripe of this system. If it were my theatre I'd certainly do it no questions asked. Who's ever going to know.........?
Mark
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-23-2001, 04:12 PM:
Thanks Scott... you answered a few questions I had about music CD-Rs. Also, SCMS is a joke. I doubt it is saving the recording industry much, if any $$$. It is just as annoying as Macrovision, but not quite as easy to defeat (Macrovision causes reduced video quality, y'know.)
Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 05-23-2001, 04:36 PM:
Speaking of which...I've already emailed Karen about this, but we really need DTS discs for 'Elvis: That's the way it is' because the local distributor doesn't have any. Now, if only someone over there had them, we could get creative with a broadband internet connection...
Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 05-23-2001, 04:56 PM:
Well,
Hello all (again!). I've tried to do some DTS disc copies via Adaptec Easy cd Creator 3 and it works just fine as Easy Cd Creator 4. So I don't think you will have a problem with this. BUT. When we used the copies in our theater the DTS dropped out occasionally for two or three seconds and then returned to DTS again even though no TIMECODE was lost. Did this happen to anyone else? What do you think the reason is? Could it be bad copies? I know that DTS supposedly should not be receiving Timecode for some seconds to drop out to analog but DTS has been receiving Timecode throughout the show. It happened in both times I tried coppies on different films. We use changeover with two Victoria 5 projectors, Dolby CP65, DTS 6D unit and stereo sollar cells on the projectors.
See ya guysDemetris Thoupis
"FOR STRENGTH AND HONOUR"
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-23-2001, 05:03 PM:
I have made several backup copies of DTS disks:1) I backed up all my test disks so I can work from the copies and keep the originals from being damaged from everyday wear and tear.
2) A couple of theatres needed an extra disk because they didn't get one with a print or the ones they had got scratched up.
I have never had a problem copying them with "Toast". I just put both disks in and go. I've never thought much about it, really. It just "works".
I wouldn't think twice about copying a DTS disk. You have to have the print and a DTS player to make it work. If anybody gave me any trouble I'd just ask them, "So... you don't want me to copy the disk, you won't send me another set of disks and you STILL want the movie to play in digital?"
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-23-2001, 06:01 PM:
First thing, thanks for all the suggestions. I posted this late last night and was suprised at how many responses this topic received just by early morning.As far as CD dropouts go, I wonder if that is not something to do with the speed of the CD-R recording versus the speed of the CD-ROM drives in the DTS unit. The original DTS-6 2-drive units had 2X SCSI Toshiba drives (pretty dang slow). I would guess any CD burned at 8X to 16X might be prone to have problems on playback. I don't know the rated drive speed on the DTS-6D units (my guess is 4X or 8X), and those are the models that will be playing the dubbed discs.
Anyway, I am tempted to burn the discs at a slower speed (like 4X) just in case. Carmike's district manager is going to be in town for the weekend to see how things go with the competition's new opening. I certainly don't want the CD-Rs dropping out audio with any of the big bosses around.
A lot of things have been going on over at the Carmike theater to get appearances polished (some new bulbs, sound systems tuned up, screens cleaned, odd items like a replacement cup holder here and repairs on a door handle there, and --oh yay!-- that 8th DTS system will likely be installed within the next week or two, and the Carmike theater in nearby Duncan is finally getting a full DTS sound system package of their own). The fellow that owns the property on which the theater sits is spending $6000 of his own money to promote the Carmike theater. The caption "DTS Digital Sound Equipped in all Theatres" is certain to come up in future ads. If the paper needs a polished EPS vector file of that snazzy "Digital Experience" logo, I got it.
In another subject area, someone was asking about "Okies". One thing that is true about a lot of Okies around here is that they are getting increasingly sophisticated in their movie going knowledge. With all the DTS and THX trailers playing at the theater and the DVDs with those DTS Digital Surround banners on shelves at the video store, audiences around here know what DTS adds to the movie going experience.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-23-2001, 06:08 PM:
Unless you plan on burning a buttload of CDs, 4x-6x should be fine. The speed really doesn't matter too much, as some of my DTS units have 16x drives, and others 32x drives (just depends on what we replaced the original Toshibas with). They all work fine.This entire problem would be nonexistant if DTS would just set up a server with the movie sound on them, and then stream the audio to each theater. A surcharge of 12.5 cents per ticket could then go to DTS. Oh wait, that sounds like an incredibly dumb idea, doesn't it? 
Posted by Mike Judge (Member # 558) on 05-24-2001, 06:28 AM:
On the subject on interlocking Pearl, I got a note saying that Disney did not want the prints interlocked. Does this make sense? Did anyone else hear this?
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-24-2001, 06:53 AM:
Apparently Disney thinks that interlocking a print will damage it. Guess they must've been scared by the Interlocking video (which by the way did not put the slightest mark on that print!)I dupe dts cd-roms at 8x and have had zero dropouts. I think the bottom line is whether you have a good burner or not. I used to have a HP and it was a piece of 
. I now have the TDK burner and it was well worth the money! 
Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 05-24-2001, 01:15 PM:
Right - I've heard that the TDK burner is excellent despite the slightly higher asking price. However, (as with all products) there are two types of burners...and one of them is the type that works.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-24-2001, 02:56 PM:
For those in the market for CD burners, check out the Plextor SCSI units. I've heard nothing but good things about the Plextor drives, and I will probably buy one of them as soon as I convince myself that I need a CD burner.
Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 05-24-2001, 03:55 PM:
I have used many CD burners in varying configurations, the Plextors are deffinatly at the top of their list, They are a higher priced (particularly the SCSI units) but well worth it. TDK's follow suit right after them. Basically if you get one that has "burn proof" you should be ok, as they have a larger buffer to prevent the infamous "buffer underrun" errors.
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 05-24-2001, 11:59 PM:
I find that the CD burners made by Yamaha to be prety good. (OTOH) I had an HP unit that was nothing but trouble.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-25-2001, 05:23 PM:
Well, the CD-R copies worked! I ran them off using the CD Copier utility, and as Joe Redifer suggested, I checked the "copy CD to hard disc" item under the "advanced" tab for making the copies. I ran them off at 8X, which had all four discs copied without any snags in about 40 minutes. Afterward, I checked the file and directory structure between the original DTS CD-ROMs to verify all copied files were identical in size (that way I would know for sure the data was not changed in any way). Pretty nice. The DTS mix was pretty good too. Lots of aggressive split surround use, particularly with bullet hits and airplane fly-by effects. Nice picture quality too. I was pleased to see the 2.35:1 image photographed anamorphically instead of the Super35 stuff that just doesn't look as good. So what if it has to be severely panned and scanned on video? I buy and rent DVDs instead anyway so I don't care about "home video safe" widescreen.
Thanks for all the help, guys.
Posted by Kyle Connolly (Member # 827) on 05-29-2001, 12:51 PM:
If I were burning a DTS disc, I would only burn it at 1X. Anythiung else (2X, 4X, 8X etc...) could damage the laser in the DTS Unit due to bad quality. It may burn faster at 16X than 1X, but I can guarantee you, you fry your unit.------------------
-@-
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-29-2001, 02:12 PM:
How's that? DTS units use standard, everyday computer CD-ROM drives (SCSI). If they don't fry your home unit they should be fine in a DTS player.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-29-2001, 08:54 PM:
Kyle you are incorrect the laser will have no detrimental effect due to burning speed.
The only problem is if burned faster than 2x the old caddy style toshibas will tend to have high errors.
It is virtually impossible to burn a CD that will damage a playback unit
Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 06-07-2001, 12:00 PM:
Hello Bobby,The discs to not belong to DTS, they belong to the studio. They are CD-ROMs, not "regular" CDs. As you all probably know, copying CD-ROMs is very easy if you have the correct hardware. If you choose to do it, I don't want to know (hint hint).
If you ever need discs, please try the film distribuator first and if they don't have any, then email me and I'll try my best to get you another set ASAP.
Karen at DTS
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-07-2001, 06:20 PM:
I find it kind of funny/disgusting that the only real "problem" ever mentioned with the DTS system is the fact that the disks are separate from the print and therefore don't always arrive with the print.What they don't mention is that this wouldn't BE a problem if all of the first run theatre people were doing their jobs, i.e. putting the disks back in the can at ship-out. 