Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Technical help needed!

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Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 05-24-2001, 06:25 PM:

I got a break in my financial woes today.

I am going to do maintenance on a pizza parlor projection equipment. And Get Paid For It!

They want me to do some maintenance on their Century SA with an R4 soundhead, ORC platter (model yet unknown,) a Kneisley Xenex II lamphouse (size yet unknown,) and general cleaning of the heat sinks on their Smart sound system with JBL power amps.

Today, I watched the operator thread-up, noticing that his leader was on the floor, and he was stepping all over it while we talked... He has heard of FilmGuard and wants me to get a bottle.

My question here is: Help! I know how to clean a Holmes, but it is not a real projector like the SA/R4. I think that the theatre does not have anything to use for cleaning, and I am sure that the projector has not been oiled or maintained. I bet he has no oil for the intermittent there either.

Since I have WebTV, I cant download any of the manuals here on Film-Tech, so can you guys enlighten me on the SA? I am told that it's a good machine. I turned it over by hand, and other than a tic in the intermittent (low on oil) it is smooth. There is another SA sitting here. Dont know if it has been cannabalized or not.
They want a couple of hours of work on this. Got any suggestions what I should charge? Please be realistic. This is a small town, an old abandoned theatre, with a leaky roof-patch job under-way. I sure dont want to price myself out of a hopefully good situation here.

I have all the basic tools. I dont know if they have any sprockets or anything like that. This machine was installed around 1971. Someone has worked on it. There is a fairly new motor on it.

When this theatre was open years ago, it was the Merrimon Twin. I knew all the people that worked there. But this is the first time that I have actually touched the set-up.

The owner seemed relieved that I came in and offered to help.

I have a feeling that this theatre is the place that the 2nd run houses send all their junky prints. The owner said that he rarely gets a decent print of anything, and just has to run what he gets.

After watching the threading, I think they need help. Not a projectionist, but help.

I appreciate any information that I might get here. Thanks in Advance!!

Bruce, Newbie-Tech.

Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 05-24-2001, 07:11 PM:

Bruce:

Have them put you on a regular maintenance schedule and let them pay a monthly fee which you can negotiate with them. It's a great way to have a regular extra few bucks and it spreads out their expense while getting them constant maintenance and attention to details. It gaurantees them that their equipment will always be in good operational condition and it also gets you intimately familiar with what equipment they have. The other benefit is that most of the work you do is going to be fairly simple, since you're avoiding those nasty last-minute surprises which lead to tense situations and long repair hours. It lets you see problems as they develop and head them off at the pass. I charge a fairly high hourly fee for broadcast engineering services and nobody's complained about paying the bill yet...they're welcome to find another engineer.......if they can, but after a few hours of "emergency" services, they are usually happy to go on a retainer schedule. Ask them what their maintenance budget is and then come up with a schedule that fits what they can afford. You'll be doing them and yourself a favor while building a good relationship with a customer.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 05-25-2001, 12:06 AM:

Bruce;

Find out what the make and model all the booth equipment is, and I can compile all the manuals onto a CDROM. Then I'll just regular-mail it to you.

Would that work for you?

Posted by Jon Bartow (Member # 241) on 05-25-2001, 07:31 AM:

Bruce,
In case you don't get John's CD-ROM in time here are a few things to start with:
-Change the oil in the intermittent (a small screw at the bottom of the intermittent on the film side is the drain plug). Please, please, please only put projector oil back in. Also put a drop or two on the upper and lower feed sprocket shafts (under the little covers)
-Remove any old, dry grease from the gears and replace with new grease. But before regreasing, check all of the gears for brocken teeth.
-check the belt(s) for wear, replace if worn or cracked
-once greased and oiled turn the flywheel over by hand. It should turn very easily, with little resistance. If there is resistance then you could have bad bearings or a misaligned shaft/intermittent
-If you are going to clean the inside/outside of the projector do it before putting new grease/oil in and use alcohol, just keep it away from the bearings, it will dry them out (= death to bearings)

-That Kniesly lamphouse has a GLASS reflector in it. Be very carefull with this thing, it is fragile. Don't open the lamhouse for several minutes after the lamp has been on. The sudden inrush of cold air can crack the reflector. However that glass reflector puts out a very nice light.
-Double check the lamphouse working distance (I think that it is 34" for that particular setup, but I could be wrong) and alignment

These are only a few things to start with. Have fun!
Jonathan

Posted by Trevor Bailey (Member # 75) on 05-25-2001, 04:29 PM:

Bruce,

Since Jon B. talked about the visual side of things, I'll mention the audio side.

I don't know your skill level, so if this is old-hat...maybe someone else will benefit.

Not knowing the exact models of the sound equipment, it seems you have at least a center-surround system. A good a-chain can made a tremendous difference in the sound you hear in the auditorium. You'll need a two channel oscilloscope (20MHz minimum if I remember correctly) and preferably a real time analyzer (RTA). You'll also need some test film loops (at a minimum): Dolby tone, Buzz track, Cross talk, and pink noise. Most good sound system installation manuals contain a step by step a-chain procedure (for the general procedure use a Dolby manual, they are great with lots of illustrations). On a new account I like to check the b-chain as well. This will require the RTA, a calibrated microphone (there are also multi-mic systems available) and a pink noise generator.

Before you present a price to your prospective client, make sure you have had a chance to read the a-chain and b-chain procedures. They are not five minute jobs if done properly. And if you are new to this, you can expect to spend a fair amount of time "playing" to get a feel for how things need to be.

Good luck!

Posted by Jon Bartow (Member # 241) on 05-25-2001, 06:27 PM:

Bruce,
If you don't already have an oscilloscope, I have one that I am trying to sell (2ch 100mhz)

E-mail me if you would like more info.
Jonathan

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 05-25-2001, 07:37 PM:

Thanks everyone for your responses!

John: If I got the CD ROM, what could I run it on?

As for the scope. I have a nice B&K Dual-trace scope here

The theatre has nothing in house in the form of oil, or spare parts, except for a junked SA, and it is missing its intermittent.

I dont have any test-loops, etc. either.

This job is going to be interesting if I end up doing it.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 05-26-2001, 12:07 AM:

Opps, sorry Bruce! For some stupid reason I thought you had a computer.... I guess I've been drinking some of your Film-Guard...

Find out all the equipment there, and I'll print out everything and mail that. I have several printers and paper, so it's no problem. I'll mail it "book-rate" which will take a little longer, but is cheaper. NC is not that far away.... but you will have to journey into town from those isolated mountians....

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 05-26-2001, 01:42 AM:

Thanks John!

Now, I got to get me some Century oil!

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 05-26-2001, 12:31 PM:

Bruce:

Don't forget to get some Century gear grease, too. Don't use wheel bearing grease or Lubriplate.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 05-26-2001, 02:22 PM:

Thanks Ken. If you had not mentioned that about the grease, I'd-a used the left-over wheel bearing grease that I got when I rebuilt the 3 Holmes 8's!

I'm going to try to drop by the pizza place today and see if I can find the model numbers, etc. on everything.

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 05-29-2001, 10:52 PM:

You won't be able to do a proper call without test films!I also advise a GOOD analog DB meter, such as the Simpson 260 series multi-meter. (The standard of the sound business) It is most likely a mono house,regardless if it is or not, clean all sound optics (in place) remove and REPLACE the exciter lamp! then adjust it for maximum light on the cell or PEC. (Place a white card in between the cell and the optic lens tube, then adjust the lamp by loosening the two screws that hold the exciter lamp bracket, then move it up or down for maximum brilliance of the slit image) the R-4 reproducer was originally chain driven (both motor & projector) Make sure the chains are slightly slack, not tight like timing belts. Lube the idler roller on the projector drive chain, as well as put a couple drops of oil in the cup behind the large drive sprocket from rear (non film) side. (This lubricates the sound sprocket shaft, bronze bushings) If film sprockets are worn, reverse them on the shafts, also if it is a platter or large reel set-up, be sure to remove the upper sprocket shaft and lightly clean the galding off the shaft with crocus cloth (800 grit) then clen, lube with oil and put back together. Be sure to lube the main drive gear with lots of grease! I advise a couple drops of oil on all gear surfaces too. Check film trap for wear on parts, and that the lateral guide roller is free moving and the inner portion slides aesily on the shaft. Check lenses for burns, stars, or other damage, Drain & re-fill the intermittent, clean all lamp
fans and the reflector. Clean any cooling fans on the rectifier. (power supply) Look for damage to the bulb, ie: darkening, pitting, etc..) Clean out any vents in the sound equipment, amps, etc. Pull, clean contacts, and install all sound cards in the processor. Run Buzz loop to check lateral film alignment, then run 9 Kc Loop to check HF output, followed by 1 Kc. loop and reading the output of the amp with the meter, you should have no more than 5 db difference between the 9 Kc and 1 Kc loops. (For mono only, if there is a difference of more than 5 db, you will have to re-focus the optics using the 9 KC loop) If stereo, run Buzz then CAT-69 Tone loop, align pre-amp levels, also, run 9 Kc loop and check HF output. Check Surround level and delay with CAT-151 loop and adjust surround level as necessary. (Listen in auditorium for equal level between surrounds & screen) If you think it needs a B chain alignment, plan on a couple more hours work! A typical GOOD service call on a single machine set up takes about 3-4 hours. Don't rush it! Good luck!!

------------------
John Eickhof President, Chief Slave
Northwest Theatre Equipment Co., Inc.
P.O.Box 258
Wendell, ID. 83355-0258
208-536-5489
email: jeickhof@nteequip.com

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-30-2001, 02:33 PM:

Bruce,
If you are seriously thinking about doing service you need to be properly equipped beforehand. The fact that you are tinkering with anothers livelyhood shouldn't be taken lightly. You should also be able to offer the finest service available,period! This does mean having the proper test equipment, test films, and tools. It costs allot of money to equip your self but you HAVE to do so in order to provide the best service. Your knowledge is also your ticket to doing the best service possible so hone it to the equipment you will be working on. Minor repairs are one thing but normal booth maintainance requires that you know what to do, how to do it, and that you are ready to attack whatever you find wrong in a short time. If the problem can't be corrected easily then you need to now how to make it fly with bubble gum and paper clips at least temporarily.
If you find a major problem you may need to know how to completely strip this machine down in order to replace say, the verticle shaft. You will need other parts to be able to correctly replace the shaft....bearings, spring washers, spacers, etc.
Don't read this as a discouragement as I would never discourage anyone from enterint this field, I would only encourage them. I only wanted to present the more serious side of this buisness which many don't stop to think about.
Mark @ GTS
(Third slave in line) Thankfully not the first in line!

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 05-30-2001, 11:02 PM:

Thank you all for your comments. Have no fear that I will go in and "tinker" away... I never do things if I dont thoroughly understand, or, have the precise equipment, to do the job correctly. All I planned to do for now is go in and clean the daylights out of the SA, and the associated equipment.

I have no intentions of attempting any adjustments of the sound lens, or the xenon lamp. Since I have no test films, I wouldn't do that anyway.

The projector in question is filthy. It needs a thorough cleaning and oiling. It has not been oiled in almost a year, according to the owner. They play 2 shows a day when they have 35mm--which is about one-fourth of the schedule.

I know that the intermittent sprocket is hooked. I plan to reverse the other sprockets as well.

The sound is fairly decent in the theatre. There is not much for me to do here.

As I said before, there is very little money available for this work. There is not even any Century Oil in the place! I think that the cleaning and the oiling should make things run better.

I PROMISE to never adjust anything that I do not thoroughly understand.

I found this out the hard way in 1981 when I loosened the sound lens on my old Eiki 16. Cost me $$$ to fix, and is to this day the most expensive repair I ever had to make on my 16mm anything! (Oh yeah, I tightened the lens sooo tight that I cracked it!)

I remembered all of this when I rebuilt the two Holmes 8's, and the Holmes Educator. I didn't break/crack anything. They are decent machines, but not Century's!

Thanks!

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 06-01-2001, 01:24 AM:

Bruce, when you reverse the intermittent sprocket remember that it has slack in-and-out so snug the bolt then place a piece of fil in the gate and see how the sprocket holes line up on the intermittent sprocket. If necessary, slide it in or out a little to center the teeth in the sprocket holes, then tighten the bolt. Run a loop of about 10 feet of film, with the intermittent framed down all the way (with max. distance
away from bottom of trap) and observe how the film is between the bottom of the trap and the intermittent sprocket, if it is running with bothe edges of the film falt or straight down, you have the sprocket in the correct place, if one side is loose or 'curves' then that side is loose and the sprocket needs to be moved a little towards that side. Have fun!

------------------
John Eickhof President, Chief Slave
Northwest Theatre Equipment Co., Inc.
P.O.Box 258
Wendell, ID. 83355-0258
208-536-5489
email: jeickhof@nteequip.com

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-01-2001, 05:18 PM:

Bruce what is the followup on this did you get the contract and how did it go

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 08-01-2001, 10:18 PM:

I am so sorry about not posting what happened. Things here have been a little nutty.

I cleaned the thing out completely. I used a load of lint-free rags to clean the grunge off of everything on the gear side.

I reversed a total of 2 sprockets, and found 2 new-looking ones on the parts machine. One was for the intermittent. Thanks for the tip on the adjustment of the sprocket here.

The oil in the intermittent was nasty looking. I had to poke a small piece of wire into the drain hole to get it started. The owner of the theatre got a gallon of LaVezzi oil from someone that he knows. I refilled the intermittent, regreased all the gears, and oiled everything else. There was a marked difference in the amount of general noise.

You guys would not believe how dirty the slit lens / exciter lamp was...

I dont think that this machine has had any general cleaning in a very long time. I cleaned film deposits off the gate/trap using alcohol and a plastic pen cap as a scraper tool. When I removed the sprockets to reverse them, there was plenty of crap behind them wrapped around the shafts.

Some of the guide rollers were stuck. but not now.

I let the machine sit there and run for about an hour, dumped the oil from the intermittent again, and re-filled it. There were some particles floating in the oil that drained, but it was not magnetic. Could this just be old oil varnish? I really think that it is not as loud as before. The knocking has diminished.

While it sat there running, I worked on the lamphouse. I removed the lamp, using a lamp guard, and cleaned the insides of the unit. The fans were filthy and caked with gook. They are all clean and the motors are oiled. The mirror needs to be replaced, but I doubt that it will be done anytime soon. It looks like a lamp exploded sometime, but there was no quartz bits in the bottom of the unit. I also blew off the boards, and transformers, tightened all connections especially 2 on a rather large capacitor. These two looked overheated, so I used some emery cloth on them. Now, everything is bright, clean, and shiny in there.

The owner was nervous when I was handling the lamp. It is just a few weeks old, ahd he does not have a spare right now. He was sure that it was going to get broken. It is a Hanovia, but I didn't notice the wattage.

While the projector was running, I brush-cleaned the amps, and made sure that everything was hooked up good.

The exciter power supply was plugged into a small fused power strip inside the sound rack. The fuse on the strip was loose in its holder, and was causing a "zzzt" sound in the theatre now and then. It's fixed, too.

The platter rollers were no big problem either. All I did to it was generally wipe everything off. My rags were filthy.

You should have seen what I got off of the lenses!!!

I ran one of my junk reels of trailers to try it out. The owner was in the theatre and said that the image was much sharper across the screen, brighter-looking, sounded better, and no longer had that "bounce" in the image that he hated so...

I will be going back regularly to service this unit. They liked my price.

I have now serviced a Century SA, probably not as thoroughly as some of you guys, but I know that every oil hole got a few drops, and it's clean and sounds better. AND it didn't scratch my junk reel.

And I'll be going back this month and give it the onceover again!!

If it had not been for Film-Tech, and all the great suggestions, I'd never have tried to do this. As most of you know, my other 35 experience is with a Holmes!

When I worked in the drive-in, I was only a back-up projectionist! I'm not a tech, but I am helping keep this theatre running! Thanks!