Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Projection training

This is topic Projection training - the road to engeneering in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Jonathan Haglund (Member # 807) on 05-29-2001, 07:23 PM:

I need to learn a lot of things, fast, and training programs seem my best bet. Where do most projectionists (real one, not operators) get their training? I need to know all the details and be able to understand most of the language that is used in this forum.
For example:
sound head installation and alignment
mechanical repairs and/or maintenance of old projectors
new installations - everything

Is there a school somewhere? Some kind of Kodak training maybe? I'm local to southern california, so anywhere around here would be preferred.

Any help is appriciated.
-Jonathan Hagludn

Posted by Jon Bartow (Member # 241) on 05-29-2001, 07:52 PM:

Dolby does seminars once in a while, Kodak does have a program, but just about everything that you would need to know for a projection or tech job is on-the-job, hands on experience. There are no schools for a "projectionist". The best thing for a tech would be an elec. eng. degree.
If you need to learn a lot fast, read manuals. Any manual that you want is here on Film-Tech. Start with the Dolby CP200 manual, it has some very good audio stuff (principals, how-to, why, etc) Then perhaps the Century SA, Simplex XL or millenium, Ballentyne Pro-35, Christie P35GPS, and Cinnemacannica V5. Try a few consoles and power supplies too: Strong (any of them), Christie SLC (and CH20), and for some reel

fun, Peerless magnarc.
Anyway, good luck. It takes most people years to become good at it. And the learning curve goes straight up!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-29-2001, 08:49 PM:

Entertainment Equipment Corp sponsors with several manufactures Cinema Training Central
call them at 1800 448 1656 for more info

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-30-2001, 04:05 AM:

I am a big proponent of "heuristic learning". What I mean by this is that by understanding the basic concepts in any system one can then apply that knowledge to other more complex problems.

Before trying to align an A-chain you MUST understand how the sound head works. Otherwise, I could talk to you about how to check Dolby Tone levels until I'm blue in the face but you still might not understand. On the other hand, if you had a good grasp of the principles involved I could tell you to do something like, "Run a test loop and tell me what the levels are". You might not know exactly what I'm driving at but with a couple minutes explanation I might be able to talk you through a problem on the phone.

So, how does this relate to learning how to be a tech? You don't need to know how to do every little thing. Any good boss will be able to recognize the people who have the talent and basic knowledge/skills to do the job. Once you are recognized as having "the right stuff" somebody will be willing to let you go to the next level. Most companies want to train people to do things their way. This applies to just about any field, not just projectors. Therefore. you could be in a better postition if you just kept doing what you are doing and made sure you do everything the best way you know how. When the time comes the company ought to make sure you get the necessary training and tools to do the job.

This is pretty much exactly the way I got to be a technician in my company.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-30-2001, 06:57 AM:

Here's a link to information about Kodak ScreenCheck Projection Training:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/screencheck/offer.shtml

And there's a wealth of information about motion picture film on the Kodak website:
http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-30-2001, 09:45 AM:

The best way to really learn is by hands on. I got started in projection this way when I worked in television as I was in charge of maintaining all the film transfer equipment and TV cameras. I started collecting films and equipment back in the 70's when I worked that job. You should try to buy a cheap used 35mm projector and do a complete tear down and restoration on it. If your funds allow, get a later model Century or Simplex X-L. Parts are allot easier to get for these. And the experience you gain can be put to real life everyday use as this equipment is fairly common today. BUT, don't stop with projectors as there's allot more to learn. Automation, Platter systems,and all the sound equipment out there(electronics experience helps here). You will also need the right tools and test equipment. To learn it on your own costs allot of money but then you can make allot of money as well.
Mark @ GTS

Posted by Tim Turner (Member # 1109) on 02-12-2003, 01:51 AM:

Sorry to dig up an old subject but, I just started thinking about these Dolby Seminars. What exactly is the type of stuff explained there? What are the benifits of attending? iTs cost around $500(?) so I'd expect to get something good out of it. That is if I could afford it!
I'm not really sure if its the type of thing that applies to me, a regular $7.hr project...um operator who would like to be a projectionist [Big Grin]

?

[ 02-12-2003, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Tim Turner ]

Posted by John Spooner (Member # 1565) on 02-12-2003, 09:25 AM:

Dear Tim.
Going by your past comments and profile, you are not an "operator" but a REAL projectionist. Keep up the good work!!!!
John Spooner. Adelaide. South Australia.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-12-2003, 09:31 AM:

Tim: Hopefully you can show your employer that you are a "rising star" in their company. If you really want to develop a career in theatre service/engineering with your circuit, maybe they would sponsor you to attend the Dolby training, while you also pursue a technical degree.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-12-2003, 09:46 AM:

Let's see here. Just for a little clerafication on these two terms.

Opperator: Is that someone who can thread a machine, push the start button check the framing and focus and check the sound and walk away. If there is a problem they scratch their head, run to a phone, call a tech, not understand them, tech has to come to a theater to fix problem.

projectionist: Someone who can thread a machine, push the start button, check the framing and focus, check the sound and walk away. If there is a problem they scratch their chin for a sec. they evaluate the situation then fix the problem. If the problem goes beyond what they know at hand they go to a phone, call a tech, understand what he is saying, you fix the problem, tech continues on to the site that has the opperator.

if that is so then I must fall into the projectionist catagory. Even though I have never had a union number or card or whatever. [Smile]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-12-2003, 10:57 AM:

Dolby's seminars are very good but they do assume a base knowledge of installation and service work

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-12-2003, 11:52 AM:

The whole "projectionist" vs. "operator" is silly. BOTH are literally operating the projection equipment. Many, many, many a damned fine projectionist refer to themselves as operators. Actually sitting here thinking about this, ALL of the TRULY GREAT projectionists around this part of the country that I know call themselves "operators", whereas the sloppy idiots who damage film refer to themselves as "projectionists". Indeed someone is reading way too much into the term. (Plus there is at least one major chain that won't even permit the use of the word "projectionist" within their building. Does that mean these guys cannot be great projectionists/operators? Of course not.)

Here on THIS forum, they should be treated the same. The difference between a non-professional "usher" or "candy counter projectionist" is where the difference comes in.

Posted by Tim Turner (Member # 1109) on 02-12-2003, 12:40 PM:

I've heard about a chain that doesn't use the term projectionist. Does anyone know exactly why they do that?

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 02-12-2003, 02:47 PM:

I was a card carrying IATSE projectionist in the days of single reels, changeovers and carbon eating lamphouses. The Union local had an old Super Simplex that everyone learned to tear down and rebuild. When something broke in the booth we fixed it if at all possible. We referred to ourselves as Operators.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-12-2003, 03:20 PM:

That is exactly the way I feel about it. It shouldn't matter what they call you. Usher with booth experience, manager with booth experience. So long as you are professional with what you do and can handle problems without scratching your head. The most important thing is that you can be able to talk over the phone with a tech that could be hundreds of miles aways, and be able to resolve the problem without the need to have the tech come and investigate. Basically you are the tech's eyes when you are on the phone with him. If you can not communicat with that person then he is blind to what is going on.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 02-12-2003, 06:12 PM:

quote:
I've heard about a chain that doesn't use the term projectionist. Does anyone know exactly why they do that?

Cinemuck did that. They invented the title "Usher-B" to circumvent union contracts.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-12-2003, 07:22 PM:

quote:
Cinemuck did that. They invented the title "Usher-B" to circumvent union contracts.

They are not the only ones. At least they recognize that you have booth experience with the B. Loews years ago just called them opperators. That word could mean anything.

In some locations Cinemark still use union opperators and usher-b's in the same booth.
still if these people are trained well and they care about what they are doing they can do just as good of job as a union man any day. Sometimes you just have to overlook the pay and appreciat the experience. If you stay at it long enough you can earn good money. Problem is it is a rarity anymore to find someone who can look at it the same way as I did starting in this business. I have been told I am the last of a rare breed. Sometime I believe that more and more each day.

About 16 years ago I tried to get into our local union here. At the time we had General Cinemas here. They had me on a waiting list but time ran out when Loews bought the GC theaters and the unions went bye bye. I found out later that as soon as the unions contracts were up. GC sold the theaters and loews took right over. So I just decided that I would keep doing what I was doing, learn from a lot of different people and techs such as John Harvey. I am happy with what I am doing now. Some management and responsability of our booth.

Posted by Tim Turner (Member # 1109) on 02-12-2003, 07:39 PM:

Darrly's definitions of Projectionist and Operator are funny! But I think he's right about their a strong distinction between the two.

I've only used the term operator in my post because of what Johnathan was saying in the original post. But I've never used it before. There are some less experienced guys working in the booth here that fit the "operator" category. But I always tease them say stuff like "We'll he's just a button pusher!".

Anyway is it common for projectionist to first call another projectionist at another theater within the chain about technical issues/questions that maybe able to be explain over the phone before they call the Technician? I thought about doing this once and realized I don't even know the other projectionist working the 8 other theaters in our chain.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-12-2003, 07:47 PM:

Tim,

They call me all the time if they need to. I am available if the tech needs me to go to another theater to check a problem for him. I wouldn't be afraid to call another theater and ask questions. You may want to find out if there is anyone in your area for your chain that has the most experience and call them especially if you can not get in touch with your tech.

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 02-12-2003, 10:01 PM:

Even us Union projectionists are members of;

"International Alliance of Theatrical and Stage Employees and Motion-Picture Machine OPERATORS of the United States and Canada"..ect.

Film cement, by any other name, would still give you as good a rush.

What's after all in a name?

First requirement: Desire. Like acting, you do it not because you want to, but because you feel you HAVE TO.

Second requirement: Experience as an operator/projectionist (pick the term which you feel applies to you). In order to understand the problems of the customer, you have to have, at one time actually BEEN a customer.

If you have these two, you will seek out the necessary education.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-12-2003, 11:42 PM:

Rick, that was very well said. Very good points.

Posted by Mark Maxwell (Member # 1355) on 02-13-2003, 01:06 AM:

If you're company has a tech service, and when they come out they get the job done quik instead of screwing around, get to know them. Find out what their' background is. The tech we use worked as a projectionist from the 60s to the 80s whe he realized the industry was about to go down. Since then he has been with a company That repairs and installs theater systems. I'm not going to say who he is or what company he's with because we are friends now and it's a small crew of only 30 techs nationwide, so I don't want to put any names on here without their' concent. THIS GUY knows his stuff. The first time I met him, was the first time he came to our theater. He had wires and microphones and tons of monitors all over the place. The first time he got to the top of the stairs, he barely looked around and knew everything we had. Our old tech wasn't like that. The new one knew instantly we had rare Norelco FP20's, Ballintyne platters, the projectors had been converted to century automatic lens changers, with Xenetron failsafes. In my experiences with him, he has never been wrong despite what some might say. He has tought me alot about the way it was when it was an extreme profession, and alot about the new technology. That's the best way to be trained. Face your' problems with the guy who's there to fix it, and ask alot of questions about anything you can think of. And make sure he has the experience to back it up.

Posted by Dave Callaghan (Member # 1544) on 02-13-2003, 03:11 AM:

Just for information, the IA has become the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employes, Moving Picture Technicians, Artists and Allied Crafts ...

The new name suggests Projectionist and Operator, not to mention Exhibition in general, are obsolete/unnecessary from the IA's point of view. Their focus is on production.

In the past, working as a Projectionist or Operator was recognized as a profession.

Today, booth training can amount to little more than threading and pushing a button to start the automation. Then the learning stops. Any problems, and that person - whatever you care to name him or her - is lost. If the situation is even recognized as a problem.

The Projectionist or Operator is different when it comes to learning. Try to adopt the attitude you learn something new every day, and we can all learn from each other.

My experience has been that knowing and understanding projection is not something that can be done quickly, because there are so many details. Unfortunately, you can read general material, study the manuals, and still be surprised by what does or doesn't happen in the real world.

Experience is essential, and it only comes with time.

Reflecting on Jonathan's original list of things to know, I have to wonder, how much time he has available and what he intends to do. If he is opening his own theatre in a month, I would suggest he concentrate on his business and hire a good technician.

For booth technique, try to find a theatre with a professional still working, and see if you can spend some time under his or her supervision. This is the way I learned it. It is called an apprenticeship, and I still recommend it.

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 02-13-2003, 07:58 AM:

The projectionist vs. operator debate goes back at least to the thirties. F.H. Richardson insisted that professionals were projectionists. His early books however were titled "Motion Picture Handbook for Managers and Operators".

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-13-2003, 08:55 AM:

Here in England both terms have been around for a long time. Architects' drawings from the '20s and '30s often label the projection room as the 'operating box', and documents of that era often refer to 'operators', though the term seems to be less used now than it was. Maybe it was more widely used when projectionists were operating other equipment, Brenographs, follow spots, slide lanterns, generators etc., as well as film projectors. The term 'operator' seems to be almost universally applied to follow spots, and to arc lamps used in studios. On the other hand, projectionists now operate other equipment, automation systems, platters, towers, video systems, computers etc., which they didn't then.

I would say that 'projectionist' is the most common term today, but you also see 'technician', which seems to be more common in multi-purpose venues which show film as well as various other events, and I know of at least one cinema which has a 'chief engineer', or at least did a few years ago, I don't know if they still use the term. This is a theatre with a fully-equipped stage, but which was designed and built in the '30s mainly for film, and only hosts occasional live events.

I wouln't say that 'operator' has any lesser status here than 'projectionist'.

[ 02-13-2003, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Furley ]

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-13-2003, 10:11 AM:

These are all good points that I am reading. I think that it is important to remember that it is the professional attitude that sepperates you from being a button pusher. every booth is different out there. They each have there own problems. It is an everyday learning experience.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 02-13-2003, 05:08 PM:

Darryl, as Robert noted, projectionists have been called operators from the beginning. Loews didn't come up with that. As Rick Long mentioned, the (former) official name of the union referred to the position as operator... that also went back to the beginning.

Cinemark was the first company to parse words in order to get around the union.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-14-2003, 03:11 AM:

Actually the term that cinemark came up with was done in 1991. Prior to that you could wear different clothes other than the uniform at the time. At least in our area. As far as loews is concerned when I worked for them they told me that operators was what the non union people were called in there guidelines. When I left them 10 years ago they had just started making it where you had to work 1 position in each area. Box, concession and doorman. Booth was not included in the catagories but I think they had people doing it anyway. the last Loews left our area 2 years ago.

But does it really matter what term they give to a position. So long as you work with a professional attitude torwards what you are doing.

I edited my post so I would not reflect any info that may have been incorrect as it was handed down information not absolute fact.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-14-2003, 03:28 AM:

Darryl, FYI the facts and reasons presented in your first paragraph in the above post regarding Cinemark are incorrect (except for the 1991 part).

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-14-2003, 03:35 AM:

That is just the info that was handed down to me over the years. Now I know that they could wear something other than the uniform at the time because I witnessed that at least in our area that is.

But like I said at the end of the post does it really matter what the term is.

By the way just to clerify to me what really may have happened for them to come up with the term can you PM me a response. I like to keep my facts straight. people twist things around by the time you hear it.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 02-14-2003, 03:36 PM:

quote:
does it really matter what the term is

Evidently, it did to Cinemark.

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 02-14-2003, 05:21 PM:

At one time there was a difference in usage between the term "profession" and "vocation."
One who professes, upholds a credo or code of ethics (such as the
Hippocratic Oath, sworn to by doctors.) In a profession the practitioner worked primarily with people (patients, students, clients, colleagues) rather than with tools or materials.
A vocation (as in "vocational training") was a form of employ in which one performed skilled operations using tools and materials.
However, the term "vocation " comes from a Latinroot meaning to call or calling. We used to say one had a "calling" to become a priest or other member of a clergy. But over time, it became used to denote a steady career that originates from an individual's preference, or emotional and intellectual enthusiasm for a field of craftsmanship.

I tend to think of my career as a teacher as a profession, and my career as a theatrical projectionist as a vocation. (Actually, my projecting career began in the classroom, developed into film teaching, and branched into theatrical projection work.)

In any case, I believe it takes a marriage of enthusiasm with skilled experience to bring career satisfaction. Otherwise, it's just a job!

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-14-2003, 06:14 PM:

pro-jec-tion-ist: n (1922) one that makes projections as a: cartographer b: one that operates a motion picture projector or televison equipment.

pro-fes-sion-al: characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession. one that is professional, one that engages in a pursuit or activity professionally.

as far as what Cinemark calls there people who run the booth...Usher-b's the b stands for booth. it's better than not even recognizing them. My feeling has always been you can call me what you want. In my heart I know what I am. I do my job with a professional attitude. I sign my ocupation on my taxes as projectionist. Of course now it will be assistant manager. But I am still very active in the booth. My statement as far as the term goes is that it doesn't matter what term they use so long as you do your job professionally.

Posted by Aldo Baez (Member # 790) on 02-14-2003, 11:04 PM:

Does anyone have a website with info on the Dolby seminars? I would love to attend one.

To stay on topic I learned about this website during a Kodak seminar that was offered free by them awhile back. Up until that time I was sort of lost. I've learned many many things from this site that have saved me more time than I could imagine. To think when I saw the bar at the top of the screen I used to go all the way in the back and move the dang curtain for the masking down to compensate. Then I read a post about the adjustments you can do right on the turret.. geez what a timesaver. Now all the screens are perfect with no black borders at all. I've also begun to take some beginning electrical engineering courses at school to maybe get a grasp on the sound and all the dang wires in the projector.

Thanks to everyone here the booth I run has not had a tech come out for awhile, nor have we had a projection problems(subtracting any dts sound freeze ups) resulting in missed shows or refunds in about 14 months. I haven't had a bad splice since a sneak of Me, Myself and Irene Yay!

Now if anyone has any ideas to attribute this to my passion for Film Done Right (at least I hope I had something to do with it!) and maybe get a little bit more compensated for it I'm open for suggestions or tips since I am not good with people or asking things from them.

Posted by Chad Calpito (Member # 1562) on 02-15-2003, 10:07 PM:

To Jonathan,

The film projection career is something that is hands on. My first time running a booth, I learned quickly and have since then refined my skills as an experienced projectionist. May I suggest to you that you also read the Technical Manuals on the projectors, platters and digital systems that way you can become more familiar with the equipment. Also, an Engineering Degree will help as well, but, nothing beats hands on experience.

Chad Calpito

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-15-2003, 10:20 PM:

If you are going to pay good money to get an engineering degree you might as well be an engineer with a high paying factory.

I would suggest getting some training in electronics at a vocational or tech school for added experience.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 02-16-2003, 06:21 AM:

Darryl is right, this business is fast becoming de-professionalized; it's now creeping into the field service end.

Of course, that's not to say you're not a professional, Darryl. [Wink]

(I don't know whether you know it or not, but I'm from Lexington and I would love nothing more than to be back there running a booth again (or doing service), but my family and I have to stay where we are. Even if I could go back, it just doesn't pay enough to support a family anymore.)

Lookie what I had to do, and I'd been in the movie business for almost 30 years (the last 20 or so as an engineer): my new career. At least now I can't be automated out of a job, and I will be able to work wherever I want (or need) to live. Neither will I have to uproot my family and drag them halfway across the country every time a theatre circuit goes bankrupt or changes management.

Posted by Bryan Kennedy (Member # 1595) on 02-17-2003, 02:03 AM:

Well, I'd have to consider myself a projectionist rather than an operator then. Luckily at the theatre I work in I get to be strictly booth. I hated every second of having to work downstairs. It just wasn't for me.

I'd like to know what you all think, but for the love of God I can't understand why people I have worked with or known can not seem to learn anything on there own. I'm always learning new things up in the booth. But, some people just can't seem to think to themself "hey, this doesn't look right" or "hey, I'm only supposed to use the framing knob to fine tune the on screen image."

Maybe it's just me and I'm not supposed to understand it. But, at least I know I'm not the only one who cares.