Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: UK SDDS Problems

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Posted by Amanda Gullen (Member # 874) on 06-02-2001, 10:22 AM:

hi, I run a 14 screen projection booth all fitted with Sony DFP 3000's. WE seem to have major track failures with most prints...ie; 3 copies of "The Mummy Returns", one passed and the other two failed. We've checked our reader alignment, our SDDS logos run fine and other sites in our chain seem to have no probs. Any suggestions?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-02-2001, 11:18 AM:

I have once noticed that if there is a lot of jerking in the print between the platter and the projector caused by the film going slack that the SDDS readers can't correct for the flutter enough to read properly

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 06-02-2001, 03:59 PM:

Hi Amanda.

There are some recent firmware upgrades for SDDS units, I haven't actually done any myself, so I can't tell you what they achieve in any detail.

Up here we had some prints of Mummy Returns with faulty SR.D tracks on reels 1,2&4. I wander..... Mind you, you did say most prints do this. Is it confined to certain theatres? If my memory serves me right you are on Kinoton platters at Norwich? Those aren't noted for bouncy film feed, but Gordons point is well worth investigating.

Posted by Amanda Gullen (Member # 874) on 06-02-2001, 04:35 PM:

Thanks for both your comments, your right we do have kinoton platters at Norwich which have smooth passage via plater to SDDS. I am due a further upgrade this month (3rd since opening). I have started tracking this with another cinema to see if similarities occur,as I can't keep playing in analogue. A tech from Sony was down recently and said it could possibly be badly printed track but surely this would affect the majority of the prints in the batch. Any further comments.

--------------------------------------------
Pete I am from Edinburgh, what theatre are you at, and how do you know I have Kinoton?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-02-2001, 05:12 PM:

There are not that many badly printed tracks out there for as a rule the labs do good work on maintaining consistent print quality.
Also most labs run the QC software on smaple reels from the release run as well
Personally i don't have much faith in SDDS's reliablity in general
SRD and DTS are more robust systems.
But at least look at the good side of things you have Kinoton's

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 06-04-2001, 02:15 AM:

Amamda,

I'm not at a theatre, I'm one of the lurking engineers who use this site. I used to be at the Cameo, Edinburgh. You and I spoke by phone a few times when you were at UCI Kinnaird Park, and we met you were at UCI Preston, right before you left to go to Norwich. If you recall, I repaired a Christie console that was giving you problems. It was then that you told me about Norwich, and it's Kinoton equipment. I have an excellent memory!

Posted by Richard Topping (Member # 871) on 06-04-2001, 12:30 PM:

Hi,

I am Booth Manager of a 9 Screen Cinema in Newcastle. I came from the Amanda Gullen Projection School!!

I, like Norwich have all SDDS, and like Norwich am having some bad problems with Mummy Returns. I have 3 copies, 2 play perfect, 1 failed on the 1st 3 reels with SDDS dropping out constantly.

Subsequently I got replacement reels, same problem though, SDDS dropping out. It was checked in a hall I know play's SDDS fine, because we have a good copy of Mummy playing in there!

So after many phone calls, we get another set of replacement reels and yet again, in a differant hall (Yes, the SDDS if fine in there too!) they fail!

Any information or advice anyone can supply on this would be greatly appreciated by myself and Amanda.

Thanks in advance
Rick Topping

Posted by Amanda Gullen (Member # 874) on 06-05-2001, 02:20 PM:

I would just like to add that its not only Mummy Returns prints this is a regular occurrence,both copies Cpt Corelli failed and the list goes on. We're checking gate tension thinking this could be wearing the track but thanks for all your comments....yes Rick Topping yours as well.

Pete, sorry my memory is like a sieve, I knew I knew your face.....embarassed or what.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-05-2001, 02:35 PM:

If the prints ran fine in SDDS at first, and then started defaulting after some number of runs, I suspect projector abrasion of the SDDS track area. Be sure the film-contacting components are free of any rough spots or build-up. Use the lowest gate and intermittent shoe tension possible that still maintains a steady image and good focus uniformity on the screen. Proper print lubrication will greatly reduce projector abrasion:
Kodak Information on Film Lubrication

If particular reels are not playing well right from the start, but others do, either your reader alignment/setup is marginal, or the tracks are printed incorrectly.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 06-05-2001, 04:20 PM:

That's a good point. I've noted that with some projectors, a print will start out with a low SR.D error rate, and over time this climbs, no damage to the picture is visible, however every projector touches and therefore abrades the film in the perf/edge area, where out digital track lives, therefore each run must degrade that track slightly, some mech's more than others.

Amanda, no apology needed, it's been at least three years. BTW, which flavour of gates/runners are you using on the Kinotons? And how often are you changing them?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-05-2001, 06:52 PM:

The Delrin gates and Bands in the Kinotons should not damage any track info they are extremely easy on the film. They also should have a reasonable long life unless excessive gate tension is used on them
I have many theatres that get 1-2 years from each skate

Posted by Amanda Gullen (Member # 874) on 06-07-2001, 06:52 PM:

We use the white nylon gate & runners, these are reversed at 1500hrs and replaced at 3000hrs. In the mean time we will monitor gate tension, tracking failed print movements with different auditoriums and monitor other sites feedback.

Thankyou for your responses.

Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 06-07-2001, 08:24 PM:

We use the Kinoton FP50D's and havent replaced any gates or runners yet.They have been in since we opened 16 months ago.The pressure setting hasnt reached the half way mark yet and there is hardly any wear showing.The only thing we have done is reverse the running strips about 3 months ago.The spare gates we have recieved recently are black not white.As for wear of the SR.D track I havent noticed any heavy wearing or increasing error rate.For example the film the dish when ot was first screened had an error rate of 1-2 when we finshed it had a rate of 2-3 so thats not to bad.It ran for a couple of months at 5 sessions a day.The only prob we have had recently is the turrets not locking in when the change to scope,have you had that problem Amanda?

Steve

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-07-2001, 08:56 PM:

Personally I find Kinoton and Ernnaman the gentelest on film of any machine.
Overall well engineered

Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 06-09-2001, 03:52 AM:

There still is a lot of VERY BAD printing around in Europe. I have pieces of film from "Cast Away" which shows the track to out of focus, with all formats including analog beeing affected. Fortunately I had DTS discs, and at least the timecode was not dropping out so badly, that the processor lost trace. Analoge was permanently going out focus.

Could somebody give me a tip how to scan film pieces with a standard flatbed scanner.

Posted by Christopher Duvall (Member # 284) on 06-09-2001, 04:30 AM:

From the run-ins with SDDS (Suddenly Doesn't Do

), most often as John pointed out that the soundtrack was damaged by the gate having tension too high. Some other cases, usually pointed to either the software just plain vanishing from the unit and going back to the defaults built in or the LED's on the readers failing. The LED's could be dim and not shine as bright as they should and not allow the the solar cell pick up a clean read off the print. Some food for thought...

------------------
Chris Duvall
General Manager
Regal Cinemas Colonnade14
Las Vegas, NV

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 06-09-2001, 06:31 AM:

You're right there Gordon, a well set up Phillips/Kinoton/Norelco or an Erneman with it's lovely velvet gate bands, are very gentle on film.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-10-2001, 07:18 AM:

Stefan said: "I have pieces of film from "Cast Away" which shows the track to out of focus, with all formats including analog beeing affected."

Sounds like there was a problem with the printer soundhead, and the sound negative and print film were not in good contact, or slipping in the printer. If you have this kind of sound problem, and examine the Dolby Digital (SRD) or Sony SDDS tracks with a magnifier and find "blurry bits", request a replacement reel immediately.

Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 06-10-2001, 12:04 PM:

John,
too late on Saturday night, and as long as DTS works and I do have discs, who cares?...
But some film labs still do lousy jobs.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-10-2001, 12:33 PM:

Here, here! Sometimes it just isn't worth the hassle to get a replacement reel(s). If one sound format works, then it is frequently easier to just keep that print playing in that particular sound format. I do see this sort of lab defect all of the time, regardless of lab, and while I probably should be replacing any defect with digital soundtrack printing, I would be calling TES and ETS every week if that were the case. This is why every theater should be outfitted with at least 2 of the 3 digital sound formats...because the labs can't get their QC acts together.

I occasionally receive a primary attached trailer "in the can" that has required placement with about 3 frames of leader on it. This always seems to be one of those fabulous trailers without black leader in front of and behind the trailer, so the last several frames of the picture always ends up being scratched all to hell. These trailers are always promptly thrown in the trash, and no I do not bother to order another one. If the studios want their trailers played, stop being so damned stingy with the leader!

Same policy goes for attached trailers that are hand spliced on with tape and the ends of them are cut off or damaged. TRASH!

Posted by Amanda Gullen (Member # 874) on 06-12-2001, 01:14 PM:

We have had confirmation that various locations had problems with the SDDS track on,"The Mummy Returns". I have now had my upgrade and we are waiting to see if this makes any difference. All reader heads have been checked for alignment and many other measures are in place. Prints can fail straight off from rehearsal but do start to fail after long runs. I'll let you know any outcomes