This is topic Wizard of Oz dye transfer.... in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 06-22-2001, 02:18 AM:
 
Just encountered my first ever dye transfer print. We are running kid shows here once a week. This week it is Wizard Of Oz. Was very surprised to find that the print is a dye transfer print. Reels 2,3,4,and 5 are all Dye transfered. But reel 1 and the last few minutes of reel 5 are not. These are the scenes in kansas. New it was Dye transfer because of the dark gray soundtracks for the analog and digital sources. This will probably be the only time I ever see one of these in this town. Would be nice to see one for a new movie though.
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-22-2001, 03:00 AM:
 
Take a closer look at that first reel of Wizard of Oz.
It's not black and white like a lot of people think. It's a sepia toned print made off a b/w neg. It probably wasn't ever made in IB-Tech in the first place. (I'm guessing the originals were b/w prints that had been chemically altered to look like sepia.)
Here's the sneaky part. That last shot just before the c/o is when Dorothy is walking out the door of her tornado-wrecked house. It's a reverse angle shot of her walking towards a closed door.....

...<CHANGEOVER>...

.....Then she walks up to the door, opens it and steps out into the land of Oz, in glorious Technicolor. If you look closely you can see the change in the picture/color quality. Most people won't notice it.

Back in the day, I bet most people went to see the movie, thinking it was in Technicolor, saw the beginning reel and thought, "BAH!!! This isn't in color!" When that changeover hit I bet there was a huge, "GASP!!!", arising from the audience as they realized it WAS in color! I would have loved to see that!

GWTW rerelease was IB-Tech, although the results weren't quite as spectacular as we would have liked. The original matrices had shrunk... all at different rates, producing an effect where people sometimes looked like they had 3 mouths and 9 eyes.

A lot of the Bug's Life prints were IB, if I'm not mistaken, as well. Now, that one looked good, except for the end part when they put on the new blooper reel. They didn't make those ones IB. The difference in picture quality was noticable.
 


Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-22-2001, 03:28 AM:
 
Randy, you are thinking of Toy Story 2, not A Bug's Life.
 
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-22-2001, 03:34 AM:
 
Yep! My bad!

I was thinking about the blooper reels and didn't remember that both movies had them.
 


Posted by Tao Yue (Member # 836) on 06-22-2001, 08:32 AM:
 
A question -- can you specifically request Technicolor dye-transfer prints for The Wizard of Oz? Darryl made it sound like he got one by accident, which leads me to think that the depots aren't keeping track of the dye-transfer prints from the Eastmancolor prints.

I've read that only about 50 dye-transfer prints were made, with the rest being Eastmancolor. Also, the Eastmancolor prints were reduced in size to compensate for the lack of 1.37:1 Academy full-frame aperture plates among multiplexes. (BTW, anybody know how they were reduced? A windowboxed picture in scope, like _Gone with the Wind_, or, even worse, a reduced picture fitted inside the widescreen area of a flat frame?) I'd like to run Oz for our classic film series this coming fall term (or next spring term), and there's no way I want to get stuck with an Eastmancolor prints if dye-transfers are available. Besides that, advertising the Technicolor might draw some interest to the classic series -- after all, Technicolor was founded by an MIT graduate.

--
Tao Yue
MIT '04: Course VI-2, Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Projectionist, MIT Lecture Series Committee


 


Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 06-22-2001, 10:28 AM:
 
Most of the "Wizard of Oz" prints Had the 1.37 frame within a 1.85 frame for multiplex showing. There were a few full frame 1.37 IB prints. We showed one at the Stanley theatre in Utica, NY last year and it was SPECTACULAR.

------------------
Bob Throop
 


Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 06-22-2001, 11:28 AM:
 
Tao,

The fact that we got an IB print being an accident I don't know. All the kid shows we are running this year are from warner bros. They have been sending them by a special courior. The prints are coming from the warner bros. film archives. If you want an IB print I guess you could get in touch with the Warner bros. film archive and see about getting one. The print number we were sent is print #11. It is in pretty good shape except reel two did have a litlle section of splices in it. Can post the warner bros. archive information off of can later this week if you need it.
 


Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-22-2001, 12:21 PM:
 
AFAIK, some of the "Toy Story 2" prints were dye transfer.

If you can't get a definite booking of a dye transfer print of "Wizard of Oz" from your normal Warner Bros. channels, try contacting the office of Richard P. May, Vice President of Film Preservation:

richard_may@warnerbros.com

Showing a dye transfer print at MIT, the alma mater of Herbert T. Kalmus (founder of Technicolor), may be of interest to them. Do remember that a dye transfer print of "The Wizard of Oz" should be shown with the "Academy" 1.37:1 aspect ratio (projectable image area 0.825 x 0.602 inches).
Technicolor Process
Technicolor Adventures in Cinemaland

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


 


Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 06-22-2001, 01:54 PM:
 
First time I saw OZ was at Kid's Saturday matinee sometime in the 50's, I distinctly remember the opening scenes were straight B&W and not sepia. I was suprised to see that the recent prints (and TV screenings) have a sepia toned reel one. I wonder how it was released in 1939?
 
Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 06-22-2001, 01:56 PM:
 
Randy pointed out the slight variation in color quality just before the transition to full color in Oz...I'm sure Richard Haines could describe it better than I can, but that scene hasn't been shown as originally conceived since Technicolor gave up the high key silver image back in the late '40's. This was a black and white image which I believe was taken from the green camera negative to enhance the sharpness of the final product, and allowed the gradual fade from b/w to full color by monkeying around with the matrices. Now, of course, this is simulated by the fade from sepia on color stock, but it is noticeable and mildly jarring.
 
Posted by Tao Yue (Member # 836) on 06-22-2001, 02:07 PM:
 
Thanks, everyone, for your replies. They were extremely informative.

FYI, LSC is an entirely student-run organization, and usually goes through Swank (http://www.swank.com/), which handles the educational licensing for most new releases. That way, we get a discount and run movies vs. 50% of ticket sales.

I'll certainly make sure it's run with the proper 1.37:1 aspect ratio. It would be a great injustice to the film if it weren't. Martin Hart has just added a new section to his Widescreen Museum that includes scans of film frames. It's pretty distressing to see the 70mm rerelease of _Gone With the Wind_ compared with the full frame, and to find out just how much was chopped off.

--
Tao Yue
MIT '04: Course VI-2, Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Projectionist, MIT Lecture Series Committee
 


Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-22-2001, 03:22 PM:
 
Well, I never thought about the difference between the original releases in '39 and today's releases.
I, too, remeber seeing the beginning in B/W on TV when I was a kid but when I finally got a chance to see the film in a theatre I saw it was sepia and thought, "Aha!" Later on, I saw it on TV again and I looked at it more closely. The TV version was sepia also. I just thought that's the way it always was.
 
Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 06-22-2001, 03:37 PM:
 
FWIW, I have a mid '80's LPP of OZ in 16mm. It's all LPP, but with the b/w segments in true black and white. When the transition to color occurs it jumps to sepia and then color. Looks relatively cheesy, but you get over it when you see that oversaturated storybook color!
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-22-2001, 11:06 PM:
 
As I understand things, the original 1939 prints of Oz had the sepia sections printed in some sort of oddball "dye monochrome" process that Technicolor once offered by no longer does. The recent IB prints were full-frame Academy and had the sepia sections printed on Eastman LPP stock.
 
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 06-23-2001, 12:00 AM:
 
Didn't they release a version of "Oz" in anamorphic? Watch out that you don't get shipped that release version, 'cause it's not 1.37.
 
Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 06-25-2001, 04:09 AM:
 
Jeff:

The original release prints of "Oz" had the black & white portions printed on a tinted stock that was brownish called "sepia".

The dead giveaway is (as Randy mentioned) the changeover that's between the last black & white reel into the first color reel. The inside of the house & Dorothy's costume are photographed in color, they are in color, but the art direction has them in all sepia tones to match the sepia black & white reels.

I remember also seeing Oz on TV a few times with a print that had the b/w sections were printed on straight black & white stock, not sepia stock, & then when it hit the first color reel the sepia costume & interior by contrast seemed to be covered with brown dirt & mud. It blew the whole illusion out of the water.

------------------
William Hooper
Junk drawer: http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/theater/3622
Theatre Empire: http://members.xoom.com/saenger.1


 


Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 06-25-2001, 09:03 PM:
 
I think it has already been mentioned, ,but what the hey...

The 'real IB' "Special Edition" prints of 'Oz' are ALL 1.37:1, so if you have such a print I would hope you are showing it in the correct aspect ratio, which would require a new lens and aperture plate for the 1.37:1 ratio. Also, the 'sepia' portions on the IB prints are actually Eastman process footage (all of R-1 and the end of R-5, the beginning of R-2 is IB) that is lab-spliced into the last reels of the IB prints

The 'Eastman' prints of the above are a 1.37:1 frame printed to fit into a 1.85:1 frame. The picture will project at the correct ratio, but the image size will be somewhat smaller, IIRC (I have handled both prints, BTW)

Aaron

 


Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 06-28-2001, 11:51 AM:
 
The "Special Edition" and "Eastman" prints were likely struck for the 1998 re-release. They should begin with the "Burbank Lot" view and the WB shield flanked by "75 Years Entertaining the World".

I saw an "Eastman" print at the Loews New Brunswick (New Jersey). For the small 100-seat room that I saw Oz in, the windowboxed 1.37 image fit nicely into the 1.85 frame with no spillover at all


 


Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 07-05-2003, 11:37 AM:
 
Scott,

I am bringing this up because you are running Wizard of Oz. If you are running the IB print does your print have the formentioned reels #1 and part of #5 not being IB?
 
Posted by Peter Kerchinsky (Member # 1098) on 07-05-2003, 12:59 PM:
 
John
I don't recall "Oz" ever being done anamorphic. I think you mean that god-awful re-release recently of Gone With the Wind. That was real bad news. I believe Turner advertised that release as being in restored Technicolor.
 
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 07-05-2003, 02:13 PM:
 
quote:
It's not black and white like a lot of people think. It's a sepia toned print made off a b/w neg.
FWIW, the 1.33 prints I ran in the 70s and 80s were straight b/w.
 
Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 07-05-2003, 06:29 PM:
 
It's wierd that I'm reading this before we're about to sit down and watch OZ on TV. (Special commercial-free thing on TCM). I remember running the 1998 version which was windowboxed in the 1.85:1 frame. It still looked very good. We ran it in our big house and it was still bright and sharp despite the tiny image.

I also remember a "straight black and white" version on TV. I had heard something about the original black and white footage being lost in a fire at the Eastman house or something. Could this be the result/cause of the Sepia transition?

The cut from Sepia to Technicolor is only noticable if you reeeeealy look. Take a good look at Dorothy's dress just before she opens the door and you'll notice the little blue checks.

=TMP=
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-06-2003, 07:43 PM:
 
http://thewizardofoz.warnerbros.com/movie/cmp/r-notes.html

quote:
Like reconstructing a crime scene in an Agatha Christie novel, it took numerous film experts and technicians months of intensive labor to produce the Special Edition of "The Wizard of Oz" for theatrical presentation. Chief among them was Phil Feiner, President/COO, Optical Effects Division and Digital Restoration at Pacific Title/Mirage, the company working on the restoration of the sepia bookend sequences on the Gale farm in Kansas.

"Our immediate problem we had to face was the fact that the original black and white negatives [which were printed into sepia] were destroyed in a fire at the Eastman House in the mid-1970s," explains Feiner. "What did exist were fine grain masters, which were made using an older method of reproduction called 'continuous dry gate printing'; it unfortunately transfers all of the flaws, scratches, dirt, digs and the like onto the film masters. So using these somewhat flawed fine grain masters, which are housed in the Library of Congress, we employed scanners to digitize them and then corrected the images on computer, frame by frame, eliminating any dirt or scratches; we also corrected any flickering of the image that also existed in the original at 4K by 3K lines of resolution."

Once this was completed following more than nine months of painstaking work, the new corrected digitized files were recorded out on a Kodak laser film recorder to transfer to film to create prints of the black and white Kansas sequences. These sections were then married to the color portion of the motion picture (which was struck from the existing three-strip negative of the Technicolor® Oz sequences).

Another improvement to the film can be heard rather than seen. Warner Bros.' Ned Price, Vice President of Mastering in Technical Operations, oversaw the Digital audio remastering of the film's soundtrack, which is heard for the very first time in true stereo. The original nitrate soundtrack and original orchestra session recordings were digitally remastered to Dolby Digital Sound -- so "Over the Rainbow" and Dorothy's magnificent trip in and out of Oz has never sounded better.


http://www.amianet.org/04_Annual/04f02_Miami/4f02_04.html

quote:
RESTORATION OF THE ORIGINAL SEPIA INTRODUCTORY SEQUENCE OF THE WIZARD OF OZ

Speaker: Phillip Feiner, Pacific Title / Mirage, Hollywood, California

Phillip Feiner began by describing the restoration of the monochrome sequences of "The Wizard of Oz" (or reels 1A, 1B, and 5B). Since the original negative elements for these sequences were destroyed in a nitrate fire, the best surviving elements, two Fine Grain Master Positives, were utilized. The Fine Grains were printed in 1960 and 1980 and contained a large number of defects including base and emulsion scratches, dust, dirt, digs, and flicker.

A three-part clip from reel 1B was screened and discussed. The clip first showed a reproduction of the source material with all defects. It was followed by the cleaned-up image after digital processing. Finally, the end product, which includes the sepia highlights, was shown...

Feiner clarified the process for the The Wizard of Oz cleanup: first automatic dust-busting at a Cineion station followed by a QC check until about 80% of defects were removed; then the "cleaning department" (six people on day shift, four at night) manually inspected and digitally cleaned up each image for approximately seven months.

The issue of digital archiving was addressed. Film outputs and records are produced for archival storage to insure that the end product of the digital work will be preserved on film. The more expensive DST tapes can be stored although, as most archivists know all too well, the machines which can read them may or may not be available in 100 years; these factors make film the best archival medium for this digital work.



 
Posted by Robert Harris (Member # 1712) on 07-06-2003, 08:37 PM:
 
I may be mis-remembering this, if that's a word, but I believe that the production design on Oz had the set painted sepia before the opening of the door.

I also seem to recall that the original production design as planned was much like the fashion show in The Women, ie. a black and white key image for the interior of the room and a 3-strip area printed over the black and white for the opening of the door to the exterior.

This was never photographed AFAIK.

RAH
 
Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 07-07-2003, 08:45 AM:
 
Robert has correctly related what I tried to convey earlier in this thread, in that the old b/w key image from that vintage Technicolor was used to make a crisp transition between the Kansas and Oz sequences in a manner which cannot be completely replicated today, or more properly could not be replicated even before they shut down the new dye transfer line. This key image was routinely utilized in the '40's with dye transfer to produce a sharper image, something which was abandoned as the dye transfer process was improved.
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-07-2003, 09:05 AM:
 
quote:
This key image was routinely utilized in the '40's with dye transfer to produce a sharper image, something which was abandoned as the dye transfer process was improved
I recall seeing a presentation on the restoration of the 3-strip production of "Becky Sharp". They showed a separation print of each of the three color records. The red record (forms the cyan dye in the print) was surprisingly unsharp. In the original 3-strip Technicolor camera, the red image has to go through the strip of film recording the blue information in "bipack", diffusing the image:

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/oldcolor/technicolor7.htm

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/oldcolor/technicolor6.htm
 
Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 07-07-2003, 11:06 AM:
 
As John points out the bi-pack nature of the red/blue images was the reason that the green record, the only one which was a unique, single film element and thus theoretically sharper, was used as the master for the silver b/w key image (which was printed in with the sound track and frame lines). I am also under the impression that the green record was used to generate subsequent b/w prints for theatrical re-rerelease and early television purposes for the same reason.
 
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-07-2003, 12:51 PM:
 
Tao said: "FYI, LSC is an entirely student-run organization, and usually goes through Swank (http://www.swank.com/), which handles the educational licensing for most new releases. That way, we get a discount and run movies vs. 50% of ticket sales."

That's non-theatrical's dirty little secret. They charge you a lot more than the studios do for the same title. Art/retropsective cinemas typically will pay 35% for older, second run and classic titles. Swank is a middle man and take a cut. Now I am not saying they don't provide a service for that extra percentage (you get to book a number of studios all in one place, they supply some ad material on newer titles, and for students who may or may not know the ins and outs of booking, you are handheld and walked through the process from booking to getting your title on the screen).

That being said, when a college or museum venue sports 35mm equipment, it usually means that they are being operated, if not by industry professionals, at least by people who are quite a few rungs up the ladder of professionalism than some kids in a dorm with a 16mm projector and a sheet hung on the wall or a big screen TV. For those running more professional cinemas, it might be better to establish relationships with the studios directly. After all, you will be doing exactly what Swank is doing -- booking from the studios (Swank has practically no 35mm prints of their own and has to go to the studio to borrow a print when you book that title with them). When you can, eliminate the middle man and go to the studio yourself.

Unfortunately, most of the classics departments don't want to deal with schools or museums because, IMHO, they have a bias against them since the think "non-theatrical" which to them means working with "students" (bad word) or "curators" (another bad word) who don't know what they are doing. They also see non-theatrical as a loss-leader situation. That's the bias you have to overcome.

The biggest hurdle is frequency. The studio's classics departments deal with theatres that run titles anywhere from a few weeks to a minimum of a few days. When a studio sees a booking request for only one showing, they see red -- red in that the print is going out and it has very little potential of making them any money. It may not even be worth the wear and tear on the print for them to let it out for a single showing. You need to try to run a title for at least weekend engagements -- Fri, Sat, Sun shows and then ALWAYS multiple shows on each day. That is a big difference between theatrical and non-theatrical -- a distributor will not be able to understand that if you have a print, why you would not play it as many times a day as you can, given it doesn't cost you any more if you run it once or four times. And since he is a partner with you (percentage-wise), he sees your running only once as a loss of potential revenue. He wants to see multiple screenings. Do that, and you're halfway in the "theatrical" as opposed to the "non-theatrical" door. Unlike Swank, the distributor doesn't charge you extra guarantee money for each showing. The other thing is, get yourself a theatre name -- name it after the hall you run the films in, "Whitman Theatre" for example if you were in the Whitman Hall. And then make up all your print material to ONLY mention that name, never the college. Basically you want to create an art cinema that happens to be on a college campus. Get yourself a direct phone line, one that doesn't answer with the college's switchboard and hookup an answering machine to it so when you are not there to answer "The Whitman Theatre, can I help you...." your answering machine will.

We found the only time you have to mention the college by name may be in your directions, but even there try to minimize it as much as possible.

You may find that you will have to play both sides of the coin --there may be some studios that will not play ball no matter what you do. You will have to go to Swank for their titles. But where you can establish a good rapport with the classic departments of the majors, by all means do so. If for nothing else, to get that 50% down.

Frank

Oh, and PS, going theatrical will also allow you to ADVERTISE --a silly restriction that is placed on Swank bookings.
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-07-2003, 04:26 PM:
 
To follow up a bit late (I was out of town for the weekend)--yes, our print has the sepia-toned sections printed on Eastman stock. Only the color reels (R2-R5A) are IB. The print looks georgeous on the bench (and the print that I saw in 1998 looked amazing on screen).

We're showing it this weekend at the Avon in Providence, RI. I will be running the show on Friday. Anyone in the area should come check it out. This is a rare chance to see an IB Tech print with carbon arc illumination.
 
Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 07-07-2003, 09:15 PM:
 
Believe it or not, I have never seen this film in a theatre. Only once on film, and that was 16mm. Eastman. All other viewings were TV or video.

I am envious. No theatres around here run older titles anymore.
 
Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 07-08-2003, 05:44 AM:
 
Bob Furmanek ran it last year at the Loews Jersey in Jersey City. It was one of the '98 prints and the thing was gorgeous up on the 65' silver screen. On that print, you could see the blue checks on the dress at the beginning of the color sequence, plus a slight shift in the sepia tone. It seemed to me that the set had been painted to match the color, but there wasn't anything you could do with the dress. My question regards the remix of the sound. How do you manage to get FULL STEREO? Were the original recordings multi-channel? If not, what's the process they used to extract the multiple tracks from a monaural recording?
 
Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 07-08-2003, 08:26 AM:
 
John: You should chat with Ray Faiola about his work releasing early sound tracks on CD (not to mention Rhino's new restored releases of many of the MGM musicals. On that topic I saw a bit on TCM last night where they mention that they got the last passes from the original mag tracks of 7 Brides and NXNW before the oxide just flaked off). I can't specifically comment on OZ, or exactly when the process began, but it was common by the '40's to multi-mike the music recordings and then mix down to mono. To the extent that you can get access to the original tracks it is possible to re-mix for multi-channel if not totally true stereo in the context we use it today. Given some creative panning of the voices...well you get the idea.
 




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