Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Digital Cinema in Kodak picture

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-26-2001, 03:02 PM:

An article in today's (June 26) Hollywood Reporter:
Hollywood Reporter, June 26, 2001

Digital Cinema in Kodak picture
June 26, 2001

Kodak is positioning itself for the digital exhibition market with a new
projection and theater management system it hopes to have installed
on six public screens by early next year. "We want to be in the
networked cinema business," said Robert Mayson, general manager
of cinema operations for the Entertainment Imaging division of
Eastman Kodak. "We see a role to play, and we want to step up
now." Kodak's new Digital Cinema system combines a proprietary
projector and operating system that includes server, storage and
networking capabilities. The software application runs on a Sun
Microsystems platform. Essentially a scheduling and
asset-management system for theater owners, the operating system
provides a user-friendly drag-and-drop interface that allows the
loading, programming and playback of features, trailers and other
preshow content across multiple digital screens. "This is the first
complete digital theater system developed specifically with
exhibitors in mind," Kodak Digital Cinema program manager Glenn
Kennel said. (Competing team Qualcomm and Technicolor are
developing their own "theater management systems" but have been
using the pre-existing QuVis QuBit video server for their demos.)

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Heyward Garner (Member # 722) on 06-30-2001, 01:00 AM:

Mr. Pytlak, just wanted to say thanks for that summary on the film transfer process. The resoloutions aren't what threw me off, it was the speeds which got me. Thank you for your invaluable input.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-30-2001, 08:16 AM:

Heyward --- I'm glad to have been of help with the off-line information you requested.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-18-2001, 09:30 AM:

Kodak's website now has a section with information about Kodak's Digital Cinema developments:
http://www.kodak.com/go/dcinema

Perception versus Reality

What is digital cinema? Why digital cinema?
What does it mean to the movie-going
consumer? The debate over digital cinema
has not only those in the entertainment
industry buzzing, but it has begun to seep its
way into the mainstream. The result? The
entertainment industry and moviegoers alike are discussing a term, which
has different meanings to different people.

Here's a crash course in digital cinema that will align the perception with
reality:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/digital/reality.shtml

Kodak Imaging Technology Center

The Kodak Imaging Technology Center
(ITC) located in Kodak's facilities in Los
Angeles is Kodak's 'laboratory in the
marketplace,' connected to the
company's extensive capabilities of
imaging research worldwide. In the ITC,
Kodak is working with customers and
best-in-class suppliers to develop digital
cinema solutions intended to surpass the
quality of film projection and meet the
needs of creatives, distributors,
exhibitors, and consumers. The digital
cinema system Kodak is developing will
improve the moviegoing experience for
consumers, project movies the way the
filmmakers intended with consistent
quality on-screen, and provide more
cost-effective systems for studios and
exhibitors alike:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/digital/itc.shtml

A Talk About the Kodak Digital Cinema
System

The Kodak Entertainment Imaging division is
testing and demonstrating an early prototype
of a Kodak Digital Cinema system. The
system includes a cinema operating system,
proprietary color management technology,
and a prototype 2K digital cinema projector.
The company is also developing anti-piracy
safeguards. In addition, they are testing
best-in-class technology components
provided by other companies including the
new JVC 2048 x 1536 (2K) pixel D-ILA
microchips and a SUN Microsystem platform
for networked storage. The prototype system
in being tested and demonstrated at the
Kodak Imaging Technology Center (ITC) in
Los Angeles. The ITC is an extension of Kodak Research Labs. Following
are excerpts of an interview with Digital Cinema Program Manager Glenn
Kennel:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/digital/kennel.shtml

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 07-18-2001, 12:59 PM:

I guess I'm still a little foggy as to who 'lectro-cinema is going to benefit. So far the only group of persons that I can figure that it is going to help are those that ship, house and wrangle the physical film inventory, itself. Unless it surpasses the visual presentation of film, I don't get why someone would want to replace film with it.
Can someone help me out?

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-18-2001, 01:14 PM:

The simple answer is that Kodak has technology that will help Digital Cinema look as good as film:

Kodak Digital Cinema Program Manager Glenn Kennel said:

"We need to provide a superior moviegoing experience because we
believe that's what the cinema will need to offer audiences in order
to succeed in the future,...We believe audiences and
filmmakers deserve at least 2K resolution although we should strive
for more, and most decidedly we should not settle for digital
technology that is 'good enough' to satisfy today's expectations."

"We need to
demonstrate that we can really offer better image quality while
retaining a cinematic look with all of its subtleties and nuances, in
addition to providing a system that offers other opportunities and
efficiencies,...Those are ambitious goals but this industry
should not and must not settle for anything less."

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 07-18-2001, 03:40 PM:

But I don't get the part about "as good as film". It doesn't make sense to me to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to replace a system with another one that "is the same". There wouldn't be any net gain. Just a new system. Surely anyone with any business sense would want a considerable improvement for money spent, right? Otherwise, you'd just be opening the window and throughing out the money. (Sounds like a great scam. Here give me a hundred thousand dollars and I'll give you.....nothing!)
I guess I'm really being dense

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-18-2001, 03:48 PM:

Eventually, it may be better than 35mm "Film Done Right".

For now, the near-term goals are:

"...better image quality while
retaining a cinematic look with all of its subtleties and nuances, in
addition to providing a system that offers other opportunities and
efficiencies..."

Posted by Larry Myers (Member # 738) on 07-18-2001, 03:55 PM:

I am not sure, but I think just about all motion picture film is trashed in landfills rather then recycled. With 3000 copies of each 12000 ft feature and maybe 100 to 200 features produced each year, this is alot of film going to the landfill. About 36 to 72 million feet of it. With outtakes and redos the trash rate may even be twice to three times that.

Film is also very messy in production with big processing machines and all those millions of gallons of toxic chemistry. So, I think it's more of a green earth issue rather then "good as film" quality issue.

Larry

Posted by Patrick de Groot (Member # 858) on 07-18-2001, 04:14 PM:

Digital will be the future, it's as simple as that. It has many advantages above normal film, even if it has the same image quality. It's much easier to make digital copies of a masterfilm, easier to distribute, less dificulties playing the movie, easier to convert to DVD... At this time it's to early for the digital cinema, but within perhaps 10-15 years this will change. Maybe this looks strange, but for example no one would have expected 15 years ago that computers were going to be used as standard equipment as today.

Digital itself means NOTHING, but if good practiced, it will simple surpass normal film. And the price? of course it's way to expensive today, but that is the case with all computer related stuff (compare the prices of LCD's, processors, beamers 5 years ago with te prices nowadays...)

I have heard someone saying that CD's didn't impress him at the introduction. I say: go listining to tapes and LP's with their degrading quality and noise ratio crips cracks etc...

Digital projection will be sooner standard than many expect!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-18-2001, 04:25 PM:

Larry Myers said: " I think it's more of a green earth issue rather then "good as film" quality issue."

Environmental responsibility is important for BOTH the film and electronics industry. Landfills are also filled with obsolete ELECTRONIC equipment and recording media that contain "nasties" like chromium, cadmium, mercury, lead, etc., and required toxic chemicals in their manufacture. Satellite distribution? -- launching satellites has a significant environmental impact, and all satellites eventually become "space junk".

FYI, Once the theater run is finished, most of the movie prints are destroyed to
prevent piracy and the film is recycled. Last year, FPC, a Kodak subsidiary,
recycled more than 3 billion feet of movie film.
http://www.fpcfilm.com/US/en/motion/FPC/fsc/fsc_main.html

With Kodak's help, film labs have become very efficient in their reuse and recycling of processing chemicals, and recover almost all of the silver in the film.

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/corp/environment/index.shtml

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 07-18-2001, 04:41 PM:

Don't they recycle film? You'd think they could melt it down and turn it into something else, if not more film.

"It's much easier to make digital copies of a masterfilm, easier to distribute, less dificulties playing the movie, easier to convert to DVD..."

But it seems like these benefits are only benefits for the distributor. I understand that it would benefit them. I just don't get how it will help the people that have to pay for it. Namely the theater owners. As far as it being easier to play, I suppose that could be the case if you just had to push a button or something, but I wouldn't think that it would be worth all that money to for a easier "automation system". In a post elsewhere it was stated that the new digital systems would still need projectionists. If that's the case then it would seem that it might not be any easier than what now exists.
I just keep thinking of myself standing there with $100K in one hand and this new 'lectro projector sitting on the showroom floor and I can't think of any good reasons why I would want to trade one for the other. Maybe if I could no longer sell tickets to the film theater? Maybe if the 'lectro projector was so much more noticably better than the film projector that I was affraid for my livelyhood? But I don't believe I'd let go of the dough just so the film distrbutor could make more money. It just keeps coming back to "how is spending all this money going to make ME money?"

------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/

Posted by Larry Myers (Member # 738) on 07-18-2001, 04:43 PM:

I can see my estimates for distroyed film is way under the actual footage of 3000 million vs my 500 million feet. Not sure what the stack gas content of all this burning of millions of feet of film might be. Something tells me that it's not all pure air. I do know it takes about 1 oz of chemistry per 1 ft of film for processing. Maybe I am off again some but still, it's alot of chemistry to get rid of.

If you really think about it, it's like Kodak producing film as fast as they can and then pumping it all through a big furnace. The film just so happens to make short stops at the studios and theaters.

Larry

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 07-18-2001, 04:48 PM:

One problem I see with this right away is the whole concept of a network and central storage. What if the network crashes? Your theatre is down until a tech can show up to fix it. Even if your lucky enough to have an in house tech, it will still be sometime before he can get it running again. Any system that does not allow for independant operation of the nodes, or projectors, is unacceptable. Keep the central workstation for easy trailer programing and other duties, but each projector must have its own storage system to ensure continued operation in case the central workstation goes down.

On a positive note, thank you Kodak for taking a step in the right direction, and designing a system with the exhibitor in mind.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 07-18-2001, 06:07 PM:

No matter how you look at it, it is going to be an expensive conversion. A conversion that will not be imidiate. Yes it could be 10 or 15 years down the road before you see the better than film quality needed.

As far as enviromental concerns as long as you have manufacturing you have waiste...so you can stop making film but you still have to make all the equipment that will be needed to replace film. So you are still filling the environment with waiste...all those projectores and platters have to go somewhere....in a dump or melted down.

My feelings are that digital cinema needs to be implemented slowly to allow for improvements yet still be able to get the word out to the public...all major cities should have at least two or three screens didicated to the process. let the public decide if this is what they want...and get the bugs ironed out...Once standereds are set and the best can be achieved then start implementing full scale...this could take 10 to 15 years...

film distributors will gain but exhibitors will lose because the quality of films the film companies are putting out will not generate enough money to pay back the costs...it's one of those things that may look good at times on paper but in reality could be devistating to our industry as exhibitors.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-18-2001, 06:11 PM:

Dustin said:

quote:
On a positive note, thank you Kodak for taking a step in the right direction, and designing a system with the exhibitor in mind.

Yes, thanks. Now, please take it one step further and get Distribution to pay for it, since they will reap most of the benefits.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-18-2001, 07:29 PM:

Even with central storage, there can still be plenty of reundancy. Separate physical networks can be used for each screen or group of screens so that, say, the failure of a network switch wouldn't bring down the entire theatre. There are plenty of high-quality network storage devices on the market today (I'm especially fond of the Network Appliance file servers) which have very good records for reliability. Granted, digital projection requires something that is optimized more for real-time applications, but that's really just a software issue. The big advantage of central storage, of course, is that it allows for easy swapping of trailers and movement of features among auditoria. It also means that less total storage capacity is necessary because only one copy of each trailer and each feature needs to be stored even when they are playing on multiple screens. For trailers, there would be no need to store both flat and scope versions; a single version could be stored and the conversion done on the fly.

It will definitely be interesting to see how the digital cinema market develops with respect to the "theatre management" end of things. Hopefully there will be a wide range of systems for theatre owners to choose from, with features appropriate for both small (single and twin) and large (gigaplex) theatres.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-19-2001, 06:35 AM:

Scott Norwood said: "It will definitely be interesting to see how the digital cinema market develops with respect to the "theatre management" end of things."

You can get a "peek" at the first version of the Kodak Cinema Operating System (theatre management) in the QuickTime movie that is on the Kodak Digital Cinema website:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/digital/vnr.shtml

Posted by Perry Sun (Member # 370) on 07-19-2001, 01:35 PM:

Yesterday, Kodak hosted a tour and seminar on the progress of its digital cinema system to the media. I'm glad that they took the initiative to open up their facilities in Hollywood to us and provide an update.

They showed their prototype D-ILA-based projector with the engineering sample QXGA chips, in a small screening/seminar room, projecting a 16-foot wide image, side-by-side with a 35mm projector whose image was also of the same width. Both images were shown on an extra-wide screen. I sat about 1.5 screen heights away from the screen.

They showed two comparisons. The first was a clip from Kodak's own test cinematography footage. The film was the output from a 2k scan of the original 35mm IP, and the digital played back the direct, full RGB (4:4:4) data of this 2k scan.

Then a clip from Paramount's "The Truman Show" was played. The film was an answer print, and the digital was full RGB of the 2k scan of the IP. The data came off of a server from Sun Microsystems, controlled by Kodak's proprietary software.

The digital image certainly looks impressive, and it seemed to appear sharper and at times a little more vibrant-looking. But the film did edge out in terms of depth of blacks and richness in terms of color saturation. Not by much though. To me, the digital image is very good at this stage of progress, and I didn't notice any screen door effect from my view. The answer print looked great, but the film's jitter and weave were noticeable too.

Kodak also demonstrated a working version of its d-cinema operating and interfacing software for theatres, which operates on the Unix platform. The GUI seemed quite simple and intuitive, and operation of the software and programming the automation and sequencing of trailers, ads, features did not seem difficult at all.

------------------
Movie Sound Editor,
Widescreen Review
www.widescreenreview.com

Posted by Al Barton (Member # 941) on 07-19-2001, 03:32 PM:

I must caution that speculation can leave you as a spec on the windshield of facts.

Let’s not get off track and misunderstand a quote. When Glenn Kennel said that it was as good as film he is referring mainly to the ability to make side by side images in digital and film look the same. Most people that view this material want to make sure that electronically we can achieve the same look as film.

The actual goals set forth by the MPA are listed below. I think you will be pleasantly surprised by what they are requiring.

MOTION PICTURE ASSOCIATION

GOALS FOR DIGITAL CINEMA

August 31, 2000

The member companies of the Motion Picture Association believe that the introduction of digital cinema represents the greatest opportunity for enhancing the theatrical film experience since the introduction of sound and the advent of color. The conversion from photographic film distribution and display to an all-digital system has the potential of providing real benefits to theater audiences, theater owners, filmmakers, and feature film distributors. But in order for these benefits to be fully realized, digital cinema must be defined, standardized, and implemented in a way that ensures that the benefits accrue to all stakeholders.

The MPA member companies have been involved in public demonstrations of prototype digital cinema systems. We have also held meetings with equipment manufacturers, service suppliers, theater owners, and the creative community to better understand the views of others concerning the implementation of digital cinema. The MPA and its member companies have also participated in the Society of Motion Picture & Television Engineers (SMPTE) Digital Cinema DC28 engineering study groups in the preparation of their reports on considerations in the standardization of digital cinema. Through these activities and the dialogue with other stakeholders, we have developed a list of ten goals that we believe are critical to the successful implementation of a digital cinema system that provides real benefits to all stakeholders. These goals consist of the following:

1. ENHANCED THEATRICAL EXPERIENCE - The introduction of digital cinema must be used by the motion picture industry as an opportunity to significantly enhance the theatrical film experience and thus bring real benefits to theater audiences.

2. QUALITY - The picture and sound quality of digital cinema should represent as accurately as possible the creative intent of the filmmaker. To that end, its quality must exceed the quality of a projected 35mm “answer print” shown under optimum studio screening theater conditions. Any image compression that is used should be visually lossless.

3. WORLDWIDE COMPATIBILITY - The system should be based around global standards so that content can be distributed and played anywhere in the world as can be done today with a 35mm film print.

4. OPEN STANDARDS - The components and technologies used should be based on open standards that foster competition amongst multiple vendors of equipment and services.

5. INTEROPERABLE - Each of the components of the system should be built around clearly defined standards and interfaces that insure interoperability between different equipment.

6. EXTENSIBLE - The hardware used in the system should be easily upgraded as advances in technology are made. This is especially important in evolving to higher quality levels.

7. SINGLE INVENTORY – Once a consensus on digital cinema standards is reached and implemented, upgrades to the system should be designed so that a single inventory of content can be distributed and compatibly played on all equipment installations.

8. TRANSPORT – The system should accommodate a variety of secure content transport mechanisms, including electronic as well as a physical media delivery.

9. SECURE CONTENT PROTECTION – The system must include a highly secure, end-to-end, conditional access content protection system, including digital rights management and content watermarking, because of the serious harm associated with the theft of digital content at this stage of its distribution life cycle. Playback devices must use on-line authentication with the decrypted content files never accessible in the clear.

10. REASONABLE COST - The system standards and mastering format(s) should be chosen so that the capital equipment and operational costs are reasonable. All required technology licenses should be available on reasonable and non-discriminatory terms.

------------------
********************************
Al Barton
Sony
GM SDDS Customer Support Group
GM Digital Cinema
10950 West Washington Boulevard
Suite 200
Culver City, CA 90232

Phone: 310-244-7415
Fax: 310-244-2024
Email: al.barton@am.sony.com
********************************

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-19-2001, 03:55 PM:

Thanks, Al. You know Kodak's goals are in-line with those of the Motion Picture Association and SMPTE DC28 committee. We all know "Film Done Right" sets the benchmark. With its' long history of innovation and participation in the movie industry, Kodak is attuned to the needs of all participants, from the camera to the screen, from the cinematographer to the projectionist.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-02-2001, 08:22 AM:

The August 2001 issue of Film Journal International has quite a few articles on Digital Cinema, including one on "Kodak Goes Digital -- Prototype System Aims for Higher Image Quality" on page 44, which discusses the Kodak system which uses the new JVC 2048 x 1536 pixel D-ILA, a SUN Microsystems server and Kodak Digital Cinema operating system, the Kodak Color Management system, and Kodak anti-piracy and watermarking technology.
http://www.filmjournal.com/applications/TOC.cfm

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-02-2001, 10:01 AM:

Is there a price worked out for the system yet?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-02-2001, 10:32 AM:

To quote from the information on the Kodak website, Glenn Kennel, Kodak Digital Cinema Program Manager said:

"You obviously can't put a price tag on a product that is in
development, but most industry financial analysts believe that digital
cinema will begin to become attractive somewhere around $75,000 per
projector. As for when, it won't happen overnight. The projector and storage
hardware that are available today are much more expensive than that. I
believe we will begin delivering projectors within a year or two, though there
may be test sites earlier."
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/digital/kennel.shtml