Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: A.I. prints tripping proxemity sensors on failsafes.

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 06-29-2001, 01:05 AM:

We have been informed that some A.I. prints are tripping the film proxemity sensors on some failsafes. One of the theaters I work at uses the componet engineering failsafes. We were told that if our prints caused any tripping to remove the film sensor from the bracket and store. I am hoping we dop not have any problems. Has anyone else ran into this problem on these prints. Warner Bros. has stated that the problem is caused by a density problem with the prints. Maybe Mr. Pytlak can explaine this strange problem with density for us.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 06-29-2001, 01:26 AM:

um... why would you remove the sensor? If its tripping (and not just dirty)then run the show manual. A good operator should be able to run a show manual and make it look just as good (if not better) than running it automated. just my 0.02

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 06-29-2001, 01:57 AM:

it's not my call. Our booth engeneer told use to do this if we had too. I am keeping my fingers crossed that our prints are not from the bad batch of reels or whatever the problem was.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-29-2001, 02:48 AM:

I am told that the reason for this is either cheap film or poor image density from processing. It's unclear to me exactly what the problem is because I haven't seen it. I just got back from a theatre that is screening A.I. and their prox. failsafes have no problem. I guess I'll find out in the morning.

The reason for taking the film sensor off is to bypass the failsafe yet still keep the automation functions intact. On some automations if you run in manual or use the FS BYPASS switch, some or all of the automation functions are also disabled. On the CFS consoles, when you put the automation in bypass the changeover will shut when the failsafe drops out while the projector keeps running. If the operator isn't in the immedaite vicinity there will be complaints of the picture "shutting off". Removing the FS sensor will completely disable it. The automation will think the failsafe is operating and keep running as if nothing ever happened. Of course, if there is a problem all hell may break loose. If you bypassed the FS this still might happen but you won't have to keep running over to the projector every five minutes to reopen the changeover.

I have had almost zero problems with poor film quality when the "new" Comp. Eng. detectors are installed. They are the ones that either have the red dots on the side of the detector blocks or else they have the little chip on the PC board. If you have the old sensor units it will pay you in the long run to replace them. They aren't that expensive. If your company has negotiated a repair exchange agreement with the company they will cost even less.

If you want to order them the part number is FM-35-PU.

Posted by Bill Purdy (Member # 202) on 06-29-2001, 11:23 AM:

We're working on it! We have been contacted by a couple of folks out there in the real world and we, in turn, are in contact with Warner Brothers. When we have truth for you it will be posted. In the meantime, any input anyone has will be appreciated.

------------------
Bill Purdy
Component Engineering

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 06-29-2001, 11:30 AM:

We had a problem like that awhile ago. We had the Xetron LED sensor type of failsafe detector. We were running the same trailer in three houses (for ID4, if I remember) and it would stop the show.

We actually went back to the regular old microswitch type.. it was easier than trying to make the LED ones work.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 06-29-2001, 02:10 PM:

The Component Engineering old-style FM35's were not very Speilberg-friendly, and it seems to be the case again!

I SWEAR on stacks of Bibles, that EVERY Speilberg film in the past 6 years would fail to detect on any of the old FM35s that we had prior to upgrading to the new-style detector and reader! LOST WORLD, AMISTAD, SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, and now apparently A.I. :O

Coincidence? You be the judge!

Aaron

Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 06-29-2001, 02:51 PM:

I had the aforementioned problem. I had a spare sensor, so I replaced it with a new one ... it's working great now. BTW, I had the same problem w/ the A.I. trailers that were enclosed with Pearl Harbor.

Posted by Greg Pauley (Member # 503) on 06-29-2001, 03:27 PM:

I found this problem on a print of "Swordfish" at the beginning of the second reel for about 5 minutes. This theatre is using a TA10 automation w/fm35 and I noticed the green l.e.d for presence going on and off during this section of the film. I moved the print to another auditorium and the problem followed. I ended up throwing the bypass switch for presence inside the automation and ran the automation in auto instead of manual. This is the first time I've notice this problem, hope it doesn't continue on other prints.

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 06-29-2001, 03:58 PM:

This is a related topic that I've been worrying about....

A film festival used raw camera negative stock as an opaque leader between shorts and features when there was a lens change to be done. The stock consistently tripped our Component Engineering failsafes (which I believe have the revised sensor boards with the dot). This was actually useful since it automatically stopped the projector for the lens change.

However, I tested a different roll of raw cam neg (I have no idea as to which stocks these were) that consistently was detected by the failsafe. Any ideas why? Has anyone else tried using raw stock as leader, as well?

Posted by Bill Purdy (Member # 202) on 06-29-2001, 04:28 PM:

We continue to get mixed reports on this film and I thank all of you who have commented here. Warners is sending us some samples of the stock and we hope to have them early in the week. We have learned that some of the prints in the field are from earlier generations of the print materials, but the bulk of them will probably be another couple of generations down. But what difference should this make? The print stock is the thing that matters.

We have also received a copy of an internal report at Warners that talks about how the optical sensors look through the film and if there is no density the sensors will not work. WRONG!!! They work by bouncing light back from the base side of the film and it is the reflectivity of the base material that will affect the results. We had to make changes when the polyestar based material came out because of differences in the amount of light scatter. Most of the changes were to the motion detector in order to increase the swing of the pulses so that they could be detected with greater reliability.

More when we have it.

------------------
Bill Purdy
Component Engineering

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-29-2001, 06:47 PM:

When my old theatre first opened (17 sscreen, CFS Consoles, CE-FM-35.) For the first two years, we had absolutely no trouble. I had been told of potential problems but had never actually seen them.

After about two years a couple of the FS started "dropping out" in seemingly random places. A couple of them were attrubuatble to poor film path alignment and a couple others were found to be caused by splices catching on the lower magazine rollers as they went by.

(Question: In future revisions of the FM-35, would it be possible to include an adjustable "bobble delay"??)

Once we eliminated all those problems we found that SOME of them were still dropping out. I would take the sensor unit off and clean it with Roscoe lens cleaner and a Q-tip. I have discovered that it's NOT a good idea to use Roscoe lens cleaner! It contains blue dye. If you don't get ALL the dirt of the little sensors underneath there you will actually dye the dirt blue, making the problem WORSE! I say it's better to use good old fashioned alcohol. Just make sure the unit is completely dry before reinstalling it. If you've ever wondered if there is a good use for those stupid electric hand dryers in rest rooms, here's one. Blow your sensors dry!

This procedure bought us a couple of months but eventually more and more sensors started dying on us. The mean time between failures got shorter and shorter. About this time we discovered the new sensors and we bought a few of them. They worked perfectly, even with films that were reported to track unreliably.

I'm not exactly sure what the cause of the trouble was. I was told that it had to do with a slow decay in the IRED's intensity. I also think that a slow build up of dirt in the sensor "windows". Even if you use a Q-Tip and reach up underneath to clean it you might not get all of it. The decay and dirt build up were a deadly one-two punch, I guess.

Little by little we switched all of our failsafes to the new models and we haven't had problems for three years.

As far as the current problems with current movies, I guess we should ask who is having problems and whether or not they have the newer sensor units that have either a red dot on the side of the sensor blocks or the IC chip on the PC board. I bet this info would be pretty helpful in sorting this situation out.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 06-29-2001, 08:05 PM:

The old FM35 sensors didn't detect IB Tech receiver stocks or B/W film either. the new sensors were a godsend.

i have also seen some FM35 sensors in the field that HAVE THE RED DOT, but DO NOT have the little chip on the sensor board. I also think they had the old-style large black roller, and not the 'deep-vee' version used today.

Aaron

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-30-2001, 01:16 AM:

Aaron, your list of Spielberg films that cause problems with the failsafes have only one thing in common, they were all printed on Kodak stock. Then again, most films are printed on Kodak stock, which is odd why it only happens on Spielberg films.

I was at a theater today that was complaining of a cloudy image on their print of A.I. Indeed the picture was a little cloudy (lenses and port were clean) and for some reason, the operator had to fully increase the gate tension as well. (This theater has Century projectors and normally runs at the minimum tension setting. The trailers played fine.) Something is definitely different with these prints. The scene I saw was at a pool where Haley Joel Osmet pulled another kid into the pool. Can anyone verify whether this scene was clear, or just a bit cloudy? Can John Pytlak verify if the thickness of the A.I. print stock was thinner than normal?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-30-2001, 07:58 AM:

There may be an explanation in the processing of the prints. According to an article in the July 2001 issue of "American Cinematographer", "A.I." used one of the non-standard processes that are designed to deliberately leave silver in the film to achieve a certain "look" on the screen. Perhaps the added density to infrared energy or a change in reflectance is somehow "fooling" the failsafe sensors. A few other pictures, including "Saving Private Ryan" and "Amistad", used a similar process. Kodak has a disclaimer regarding non-standard processes:
http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/support/processing/skip.shtml

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-30-2001, 12:35 PM:

John, is this the same process that was used on Sleepy Hollow as well? If so, I can inspect a print of A.I. and report back on that.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-30-2001, 12:51 PM:

Brad: You are correct. For "Sleepy Hollow", Cinematographer Emmanuel Lubezki said "we decided the movie should be slightly saturated and monochromatic. We went as far as seeing the color of the blood because with the process we chose -- it's called a CCE process (Color Contrast Enhancement) which is done by Deluxe Labs -- the color of red gets very desaturated and looks almost gray. So we had to figure out a color that would read red after the whole process. Tim (Burton) was very involved in all the tests."
Sleepy Hollow Cinematography

The special process used by Technicolor is known as "ENR": "Storaro pioneered use of the ENR proprietary process developed by Ernesto Novelli at Technicolor Labs in Rome. By leaving more silver in print film, the ENR process renders richer black tones. He applied this technique to footage of the actors, matching its look to archival imagery from the Russian Revolution. Since then, variations of ENR (such as bleach-bypass and silver-retention) have become commonplace at labs."
Storaro Article
Canadian Society of Cinematographers Article on ENR

Posted by Michael Elam (Member # 788) on 07-02-2001, 08:04 PM:

Another reason not to run Manually.....in a complex with even more than one screen, let's say 20, with one operator, He/she will not be around when that one machine needs to be shut down, the film will run out and the next thing you know we are buying new lenses, I see this every time when I am in a theatre even when their is no reason for it.
Somewhere, somehow, for some reason people are making decisions on their own to quit using cues, I always wonder what the Manager is doing, not paying attention to the booth that is for sure.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 08-22-2001, 11:11 AM:

Apocalypse Now loses "motion" on the FM-35. The trailers run fine but the show stops as soon as the feature starts. During the first reel the "Motion" LED flickers on and off.

The last print I had serious problems with was A Hard Day's Night. The problem moves from screen to screen with the print, so it's not a specific failsafe problem.

Some shows will lose "Motion" and others will lose "Presence" but still indicate "Motion."

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 08-22-2001, 03:13 PM:

Well, both "Apocalypse Now Redux" and "Hard Day's Night" are on B&W stock, though the stock used for dye-transfer is apparently a special B&W stock.

Jeffry, did your print of "Apocalypse" come with an attached trailer? If so, was that trailer printed in dye-transfer along with R-1, or was it "regular" film spliced on? Did it have any trouble with the FM-35?

Hmm... does the show shut down if the FM-35 still has Motion but loses Presence?

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 08-22-2001, 04:55 PM:

>>Well, both "Apocalypse Now Redux" and "Hard Day's Night" are on B&W stock, though the stock used for dye-transfer is apparently a special B&W stock.<<

AFAIK, IB receiver stock and standard B/W print stock are basically the same, only real difference is that the B/w print stock has the silver across the entire width of the film and the receiver stock has the silver only in the soundtrack area.

and yes, BOTH of those stocks are going to cause trouble with unmodified FM-35's. Contact Component Engineering about upgrading those units, and send the old ones back for a $45 rebate per unit!

Aaron

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-23-2001, 08:37 AM:

Aaron said: "AFAIK, IB receiver stock and standard B/W print stock are basically the same, only real difference is that the B/w
print stock has the silver across the entire width of the film and the receiver stock has the silver only in the
soundtrack area."

Both B&W print film and the stock used as the "receiver" or "blank" for dye transfer prints are silver-image films with the silver halide coated across the entire width of the film. Of course, with B&W prints, both picture and soundtrack are silver images, but with current dye transfer, the soundtracks are a silver image developed in a B&W developer, and the picture is dye transfer:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/lab/so302.shtml
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/oldcolor/technicolor1.htm

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 08-25-2001, 11:37 AM:

The trailer and Miramax logo are not IB Tech, but "regular film". The attached trailer is not part of the presentation.

I have not observed the conclusion of the theater policy and start of the feature, so I do not know exactly when it trips. Based on my experience with this problem in the past, I suspect the show shuts down as soon as the IB Tech stock passes the FM-35.

The show will shut down at the loss of "Presence" as well as "Motion".

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-25-2001, 11:54 AM:

Out of curiousity: what's wrong with the microswitch type of failsafe? I haven't worked with the motion sensors, but they sound overly complicated and prone to failure. Does anyone make a failsafe with both microswitches and motion sensors that allows one to toggle between them depending on what works for a particular film?

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 08-25-2001, 12:53 PM:

Usually, the microswitchs on failsafes need to be replaced once every two years or so, depending on use. They are only about $5 (in single quanities) and easy to get at, so it's not a hardship, but people like as few maintaince items as possible nowadays. It's easy to *think* that an electronic failsafe would be more reliable.

I've never seen both types on one assembly. At the place I'm working now, the bracket will hold either type, but only one at a time.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 08-25-2001, 02:02 PM:

Speco makes a failsafe that has the drop-down microswitch arms and metallic proximity detectors for the cues, a mix of the best of both worlds.

I personally have had NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER with the FM35 if it is one of the later ones, or a modified older one, They are great failsafes!

Aaron