This is topic Super Simplex whine in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002459
Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 07-07-2001, 09:15 PM:
Sounds like something you might drink at a projectionist convention.I just installed a Super Simplex in my booth to keep my Brenkert BX80 company, but what a difference in the sounds of those machines! (What a difference in a LOT of things...like quality, and finger room) All you hear when the Brenkert runs is the sound of the film being pulled through, but the Simplex has what I consider an annoying gear whine. It's in the projector head and I suspect the drive gear to the intermittent, since it has a slight modulation at the same speed as the rotation of that large gear. There's not a lot of play in the gear train and I don't notice any unusual wear. Is this just what they sound like or what?
Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 07-07-2001, 09:37 PM:
Compared to a Brenkert which has its gear train in an oil bath and completely sealed compared to the open gear train (besides the flimsy door in the back) gear train of the Super which has no oil bath, I can understand why you hear a difference. Aaron
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-07-2001, 10:27 PM:
A properly running Super should not exhibit any sort of whine. Either there is a mis-mmatched gear pair of one of the frame bushings has worn oval and is allowing a gear pair to mesh to deeply. All in all the Super should not make any more noise than the Brenkert when running no film through it. When running film a properly setup Super can be very quiet and put out darn good images. Yes, its a bit tight on threading but either the Brenkert or Super run hand in hand for the worst oil mess from a projector.
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-08-2001, 02:24 AM:
Just a wrrrrrrr of the shutter breaking wind 
is all you should hear form a Simplex E-7 or Super. I have to agree with Mark. Are you using the correct main drive gear? Simplex and RCA have a different pitch in the teeth. Normally, with no film in the Simplex Super or E-7, it will be very quiet.Brenkerts RULE!
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-08-2001, 09:39 AM:
I'm no Brenkert expert but I have heard one that was dialed in to a "T"...I mean it seemed perfect....It has NO noise when running...nadda, nill, zilch...put film in it...virtually no change..only on a splice did it go "ca-clack". I have NEVER heard a Super or E-7 run that quiet.
Whirring noise, I'll agree could very well be the wrong maing drive gear...often a noisy Simplex can be fixed with a proper main drive gear. This presumming the gear meshes in the machine are right.
I have various mis-fits inside the machines...Sometimes while in an older booth that has a huge stock pile of parts....I'll be changing a worn out gear that has a bunch of slop and the new gear...fits WAY TOO TIGHT....a grap another new gear...fits like a glove!...couldn't tell you the history of these parts as to why one worked well and the other didn't though both new and having the same part number and same outward appearance.
Steve
------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 07-08-2001, 11:17 AM:
I pulled the main drive gear and shaft and spun up the soundhead just holding the gear and shaft up against the soundhead drive gear...you could FEEL the vibration. I compared the gear to the one on the Brenkert/RCA9030 combination and it's an RCA gear allright...an exact duplicate. I'll order a new Simplex gear. Thanks, guys!
Posted by Tom Hutchinson (Member # 876) on 07-08-2001, 08:12 PM:
Don't confuse the projector with the soundhead. The drive gear large fiber or composition) has to match the soundhead; the pinion matches the projector, but Brenkert and Simplex are cut alike (except the Brenkert pinion is shaped just a bit differently).What was meant was that if you were using a drive gear designed for a Simplex soundhead on an RCA soundhead, then it would work, but it would whine.
Remember that the Super was designed around 1927, and there were many companies that made parts for it; most fit just fine, but others might be slightly off. Swap some gears around with a scrap projector and see what happens!
I think you will find a lot of difference in the way the Super handles splices. Projectors designed after WWII use gentle loops; projectors designed before that use tight loops. Tight loops cause trouble on tape splices (which, of course, didn't exist when the projectors were designed).
Tom
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-08-2001, 10:46 PM:
There is also a possibility that the gear mesh might be too tight. Leave just a little slop. (not much is needed). Also, some whining can be caused by a small amount of mis-alignment of the projector head with respect to the sound head.
Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 07-09-2001, 04:09 PM:
Paul, the first thing I did was to play around with the gear mesh. I like the way that Simplex gives you that adjustment knob right up front to handle that. The drive gear whines no matter how you have the projector set. It's definitely the drive gear. You can hold that baby by itself between your fingers on the soundhead drive gear and it'll whine like crazy, even with no projector attached.
Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 07-09-2001, 04:21 PM:
JohnListen to Mark Gulbrandsen, Tom Hutchinson and Paul Thompson!
The fiber gears for projector to soundhead drive are different between manufacturers (RCA/Simplex). Many will work with each other, but will whine because of differences in gear pitch.
You can also check the operation and parts books for the Super and E-7. Download the Super,E-7 and RCA 1040 through 9050 books from Film-Tech. There is a little info about the gears in them.
Be careful about how you clean and lube these machines. I have seen some people use grease on the gears, and this is a no-no.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-09-2001, 09:11 PM:
Molidneum disulphide greese works very well on the E7 and the super gear train as it will cling to the gears and not tend to get thrown off. Plus it will stand up to high temps much better than oils will
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-09-2001, 10:02 PM:
Gordon, I respectfully disagree with any grease being used on the Simplex Supers or E-7 gear trains. Those machines ran beautifully for 60 to 70 years with Simplex oil only. I don't understand why anyone would want to change and screw it up. Grease can get in the small oil passages on the shafts and bushings and plug them up. I have rebuilt a few Supers about 25 years ago because idiots were using grease on the gears.
Using grease is just simply a lazy man's way out to cut a corner, and the machine will suffer from it. So will the repair bills.
Some of the older Supers may have grease cups on the rear shutter bearing. That is the only place grease should be used.
Posted by Harry Robinson (Member # 265) on 07-09-2001, 10:58 PM:
I might as well throw in my two cents here. I've been putting up with a whining Super since I got into this hobby a couple of years ago. After holding the phone up to the machine for Paul Thompson to hear, we came to the conclusion that there is a bind somewhere in the head. When turning the shutter shaft you can feel it bind when the intermittent pulls down. Well, I've got another Super on the bench, and there's no comparison between the two when it comes to smoothness. My original machine actually makes a slight gear noise when turning the shutter knob. This new one is totally silent. You can't feel when the intermittent pulls. I'm about half through cleaning it up. I'll post after the first time it runs and tell you if there's a real difference.Once again, thanks to John Eickhof for help above and beyond the call to duty.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-09-2001, 11:10 PM:
Harry, from what you describe, the difference between your old one and the new one will be like cold night in Antarctica as compared to a hot day in Africa.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-10-2001, 07:03 AM:
I have always used greese on the gears and a few drops of oil in every tube every day. Never had a problem.
The only problem was an oblique E7 and that problem went away when I converted it over to a verticle shaft.
I found the greese made a big difference in the performance when the machines were used with higher powered lamps and platters compared to there original duty cycle of 20min reels
Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 07-10-2001, 01:08 PM:
Gordon,I have been told over and over again by many old-time Projectionists to never ever use grease on the E-7 gear train. I have a list of oils to be used. I believe 40w ND (non detergent) should be used in the 1040 gearbox. I'll check on the other oils.
Remember that the oblique shaft cannot handle platter operation! -The vertical shaft can. Nonetheless, new gears are becomming rare. I have also been told that the oblique geartrain is much tighter than the vertical drivetrain.
Remember that it is also very important to purposely reframe the E-7 on a regular basis so that you get even wear on the oblique and shutter shaft gears. Not doing this can lead to premature gear failure, should framing adjustments be necessary during operation.
Also insure that the one-shot system is clean and properly working. New check valves, nuts and ferrels are still aviable, and are not expensive.
When I got my E-7, both the main and intermediate drive shafts and gear hubs were badly scored due to a lack of lubrication! I have since replaced both shafts. I still need to overbore by gears and press in oillite bearings. This may be going overboard, but it shure will be worth it!
Should anyone else be interested in my E-7 mods/ improvements and rebuilds, I can yap at yall later--let me know!
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 07-10-2001, 02:35 PM:
My first projector was a Super. Keep oil in it or else! The super has no bearings. All it has is holes in the castings that the shafts turn in. If you don't keep it lubed, those shafts will seize. (Been there, done that) When that happens all you can do is pound out the seized shaft and ream the hole smooth. Then the oil will just pour through the enlarged bearing hole, and you'll really have a mess. The only alternative is to over bore the hole and put in bronze sleeve bearings. Doing this would cost a pile and certainly exceed the value of the machine. I have a shop that is capable of this operation, but I didn't do it as the labor would have made it non-cost effective.Keep it lubed
------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-10-2001, 05:28 PM:
Well with up till recently we had about 30-40 supers/e7 that I had to service and I always used Molidnium disulphide grease on the gears and they never gave any problems as long as the one shot was used or the old oilcan on the bearings on the supers.
All those machines got retired when the buildings got renovated but most ran about 20 years like that with no problems.
In fact that was the secified lubricant by Westrex on the export market
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-10-2001, 05:49 PM:
Well, I have seen several Super Simplex projectors running double features from a platter in several drive-in theaters in Wisconsin. The Supers were parked in front of 6KW Xenon Lamphouses. All that was used to lube the machines was Good Old Simplex Oil, and no grease on the gears. In three years, I had to change only one shutter blade and a sprocket. There were no mechanism failures due to heat from the lamp.
If you compelled for one reason or another to grease the gears, please be my guest, But not on my machines!! Anyone can do as they please, if they are willing to pay the price later. 
Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 07-10-2001, 10:40 PM:
Personally, I agree completely with Paul. In the western US with low humidity,I have found that moly grease (ie: Lubriplate, or equiv.) will dry to a consistancy of portland cement. It is usable for a little while, but just like it is used when assembling automobile engines, it is designed to be flushed out by operating oils. As for westrex recommending it for projectors, maybe so, but I have rebuilt many Century heads that had the stuff welded to the gears and could not be chipped off or even soaked off with solvent! Thus, the official
century gear lube is a short fibre light petrolium based lude that will not dry out. Even with that in mind, I still agree with what Larry Little once told me..."A couple drops of light projector oil on the gear faces periodically ia all that is necessary to prevent friction" I was there when Larry rebuilt 8 century G1 (CC) models, they went into an 8 plex that ran 12 hours a day for over 14 years and were lubed only with projector oil! I just saw those same machines in a warehouse in southern Cal. (they were removed a couple of months ago from the 8 plex when it closed) and they were in OUTSTANDING condition! No visible signs of grease anywhere! In fact I was told they were en route to Mexico to serve for many more years! I also think that grease on the gear faces will be condusive to additional dirt and grit retention, where occaisional oiling will clean as well as lubricate the surfaces, and in the case of fibre gears, oil will be absorbed into the material simular to 'oil impregnated' bearings in wide use in projectors. My $.02 worth....------------------
John Eickhof President, Chief Slave
Northwest Theatre Equipment Co., Inc.
P.O.Box 258
Wendell, ID. 83355-0258
208-536-5489
email: jeickhof@nteequip.com
Posted by Rory Burke (Member # 512) on 07-10-2001, 11:49 PM:
That whine you are talking about sounds curiously familiar......Out of 40+ simplex machines I used to service two developed what I would call a whine that seemed to have the same symptoms you described. My problem resulted in replacing the entire sound drum shaft and bearings assembly. It seems that the shaft just wore down over time (14k hours on those machines...enough for wear and tear to take affect). Give it an extra looksy.....in case its the same thing that happened to me..what will happen is the sound will get louder with time and replacing the culprits is inevitable.
Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 07-11-2001, 02:13 AM:
If the sound drum shaft were at fault, you'd be able to duplicate the sound by spinning the drum. This isn't the case. The projector by itself is very quiet when spun up to speed by itself (I kludged up an attachment to my variable speed drill to spin it up). The soundhead is as quiet as a mouse when run up without the fiber gear connecting it to the projector head. The whine is from the fibre gear. One of the fellows at Wolk informed me that they're machining all the replacement gears for RCA and Simplex to exactly the same pitch and that it's a compromise between the two. The gear is designed to work with either, but runs a bit noisy when installed in a Simplex. Evidently they've got a gear that's available made out of a softer composition material that makes less noise. The advice he gave me was to completely dry out the gear, cinch it up real tight and let it run for a few days to let it settle in, then back it off and give it some grease. Frankly, I'm just going to let it whine. Eventually, it will wear itself into a quieter state (the art of Zen and projector maintenance). As far as lubrication on the rest of the machine is concerned, I just give all the oil fillers a shot every time I run the machine and wipe down anything that's messy. Part of my daily routine involves going down to the screening room and wiping away the cares of the day along with wiping down the Simplex and the Brenkert. The machines stay spotless, the oil stays off the floor, It's 1964 once more, I'm 17 again and hanging out in the booth at the old Baronet....my brother does the same thing with his motorcycle, but it makes a LOT more noise than my Super.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-11-2001, 07:37 AM:
Lubraplate is not molidniumdisulphate but a white lithium based greese that will harden to cement
Moly is a semi fluid black smelly greese that clings like anything
In most of the film labs we use it on the standard simplex preveuw hispeed machines even in the movements as any oil leaking on a test print is not acceptable
Posted by Harry Robinson (Member # 265) on 07-11-2001, 10:13 AM:
Well, I cleaned out the Super that came in this week, oiled it up and turned it on. No whine at all..anywhere. Steady picture, and the three blade shutter hasn't killed off all my brightness, but there's no flicker.
The only difference I can detect is louder film noise from the gate. I changed out the gate trap to one of my older ones and the sound went away. Could this be because the "better" one is holding the film a little looser? Both gate traps are showing a steady picture.
Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 07-11-2001, 03:28 PM:
Should you not opt for Simplex Oil, then correct oils are as follows:RCA or Simplex soundhead gearbox: 40W-ND (non detergent)
Simplex intermittents and gears 5W-30 or 10W-30. I have been told that 15W-30 is too heavy. I have also been told that E-7s are still widly used in Mexico, and that they use ATF in the intermittents.
Stay away from that damn grease on the gears!
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-11-2001, 05:00 PM:
The specified weight of simplex super/E7 oil is 20 nodetergent
The xl is 10
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-11-2001, 06:01 PM:
Aw Conmmon you guys get with it. Super lube beats em all by a long shot. Its a synthetic and NEVER dries out. Its lubrication properties are far better than any standard petrolieum base lube. Same goes with using synthetic oils for intermittent use. You'll get about 2 to 3 times the life out of a movement if you do.
I do however agree with both the original Century C manual that states to put a couple of drops of projector oil on each gear pair and work it in by turning it over by hand. Its foolproof as long as someone remembers to do it.
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-11-2001, 07:39 PM:
The formal projectionist's school (US Navy) indicated 30 weight non detergent motor oil in the sound heads, period. This school was taught by professionals. It was also stated in the US Navy's tech manuals.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-11-2001, 09:57 PM:
The simplex soundhead is specified as an SAE40
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-11-2001, 10:07 PM:
Gordon is correct on the Simplex Soundhead oil - SAE 40 is what the manual specifies.The RCA soundhead manual specifies SAE-30.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-11-2001, 10:37 PM:
ATF in the movements will probably work, but I wonder about long-term effects. Type "F" and Dextron II have a little different characteristics, but I don't know which is safer (or the lesser of the two evils).Actually, I got daring one time and ran a Brenkert with aircraft hydraulic fluid for oil. It seemed to run just fine, but I do not know what the long-term effects would be either.
Personally, I would not make a "habit" from any of the above. 
Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 07-12-2001, 07:26 AM:
What about the Otis lubricants that Otis Elevator Company
supplies? I want to use Otis oil in my Simplex 1014 that
matches the Strong Simplex oil. Try looking for the lubricants
at www.otis.com for Otis lubricants.
Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 07-12-2001, 02:07 PM:
I guess that a good idea would be to do some homework. Since we know what type of materials the different gears are made out of, we know their operating temps, speeds, loads, and duration of operation, then we can compare this data against the characteristics of different oils and determine what is best. I have to admit though, that the synthetic oils sound like an interesting idea.
For those of you who are collectors who do not use your machines on a regular basis, it is still a good idea to run them for about 20 minutes or so every couple of weeks to help prevent oils from becomming static and causing a varnish.
And remember, on an E-7, it is very important to purposely reframe the machine on a regular basis so that you get even wear and extended life out of the oblique shaft and shutter gears!