This is topic Worlds leakiest projector in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by James Robertson (Member # 888) on 07-16-2001, 11:15 PM:
There must be a few beauties out there. I nominate the English Ross projectors of the 50's.When I was an apprentice(a longgg time ago!) I suggested to the chief that we rig up a circulating pump so that we could shovel back the oil in the drip tray which had leaked out overnight leaving the machines dry. He was not amused.
Any other nominations/
Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 07-17-2001, 12:31 AM:
Just about any Simplex XL with a porous casting usually leaks loads of oil...Simplex SH-100x and RCA soundheads can do their share of drooling lots of oil as well.
Aaron
Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 07-17-2001, 06:11 AM:
Someday thousands of years from now they'll dig up the ground under where my RCA 9030/Brenkert BX80 sits and sink a new well. 
Posted by Michael Pace (Member # 553) on 07-17-2001, 07:30 AM:
James, You are the first person I have come across who has mentioned the Ross projectors. I have a photo of my father taken at the Granada Cinema in Grantham, England, sometime prior to 1956 that has a Ross projector clearly identified. From what my father has told me they were on RCA9030 rotary stabiliser soundheads.Regards,
Michael.
Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 07-17-2001, 09:00 AM:
I had a Super Simplex over Motiograph. I got tired of using the oil can so I rigged up a gravity feed oil drip made out of some copper pipe and a bunch of plastic hoses that went to the oiling tubes. It look like an octopus. On the bottom of the motiograph was a drip pan (!) with a baby food catch jar. At the beggining of the show I'd dump the contents of the baby food jar into the octopus and let it run through. The drip pan caught most of it------------------
Greg Mueller
Amateur Astronomer, Machinist, Filmnut
http://www.muellersatomics.com/
Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 07-17-2001, 09:11 AM:
In the UK you can still find Ross projectors running somewhere. Ilfracombe has a pair of these machines on changeovers with 2,000’ reels and BTH type ‘C’ carbon arc lamps. Also in Brecon I have seen two Ross GC3s on RCA 1041 soundheads with a Westrex tower. The owner told me that the picture was as good if not steadier than the Cinemeccanica Victoria 5 in his 2nd screen.The worst oil leak I have seen was a standard Simplex projector onto a Western Electric Universal Base.
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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-17-2001, 09:57 AM:
While there may be leaky machines out there remember it is the projectionists duty to keep the oil mess under control at all times!!
My nominees for the leakiest machines are........1. Older Simplex X-L's. Even with all the new fangled seals the oil insists on exiting right through the main casting. Oil sales to plexes running these are always very good.
2. The Exxon Pro 35 with bad oil seals.... This will leave over a quart of oil all over the sound head and booth floor. And you thought the Exxon Valdez incident was awful?
3. Cinemecannicca Vic-4's are really awful.
4. Any Brenkert, especially an older neglected one with bad, swollen rubber gaskets.
5. Simplex E-7 with built in oil pumper. Everyone always pumps the heck out of these!
6. Simplex Super....Keep those Tampons in there and change em often!
7. Simplex Standard......Definately needs Tampons to keep things under control.
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-17-2001, 10:09 AM:
I believe that Ross's lubrication system was basically like the Super/Standard Simplex put a few drops of oil in each tube. That oil is expected to just run out
I still don't understand why Ross didn't have a slip in apperture plate that could be changed while the machine is running
Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 07-17-2001, 12:28 PM:
No Ross machines running up here in jockland, I've got a couple of x-boxes that are taking up space. That said, Mike Denner of Dolby UK uses Ross machines for his outdoor work at the various music festivals here. There was an article about his set up in 'Cinema Technology' a while back.If my memory serves me well, one of the Ross models had a design flaw that basically stopped the shutter shaft from being properly lube'd. An old guy who was a former RCA engineer told me that it was not uncommon to find that section of shaft (I'm assuming it passes through a bush or bearing) had siezed and sheared clean off, the surrounding metal having been blued by the heat.
The Kalee machines are bad for leaking if they are on any kind of a rake, a place I worked at for a bit had two GK 21's which were down in the head by an impressive 20 or so degrees, the oil used to flow liberally out along the racking handle shaft, drip down into a baking tray carefully positioned for the purpose, before being poured back in through the brass 'ole in the top! Changed days, even in my short life time.
Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 07-17-2001, 02:07 PM:
About the RCA and Simplex soundhead leaking:I know that they leaked when overfilled--and that the plain jane oil cup was origonal equipment. How many of you use the sightglass oil cup? As far as gaskets--I am making my own out of bulk Felpro rubber-fibre material to see if it works better. Install sealed roller bearings in the sound drum shaft (1040) so you do not have to oil that!--Do not use rubber shielded ones, as they do tend to be stiff.
Remember, when torqueing bolts down, to use the proper torque and tightening pattern. Tool loose will not properly seal, and too tight can ruin seals. Also, irregardless on what type of machinery you are working on--projectors, auto engines, etc, etc,--proper torqueing sequence is imperative to prevent the warpage of mating surfaces. This is very true of both iron and aluminum! And when replacing seals, double check that ther are no little burrs or debris on the mating surfaces that can ruin your day!
As for the E-7, my gear studs were scored from a lack of lubrication--this is how I received the machine. Anyhow, I am going to overbore my gears and press in oilite bearings. This should hopefully make a difference!
Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 07-17-2001, 04:25 PM:
I had a Simplex soundhead oil sight glass that wouldn't stop leaking
around the cork-like seals above and below the glass tube. I couldn't see any way to fix it. It's a pressed together assembly that only goes together one time. (and RTV sealant around it from the outside didn't do the job).
Sooo, I took a trip to the plumbing shop and got a piece of threaded pipe to replace the vertical oil sight glass. This works fine as a standpipe, only you have to view the oil level by looking down into it.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-17-2001, 05:38 PM:
There is no way to stop leaks in a Simplex, or RCA soundhead. I've tried all the things you mentioned at least a decade ago. There was even a company outside of Chicago(Perk Industries)that made wax coated gaskets for RCA/Simplex and these worked pretty well. But eventually the oil permeates right through the porus cast iron, or alumnium castings just as in an X-L, or Brenkert. There is a process that Harley Davidson uses and is done by a company in West Bend, Wi. They hermetically seal a given casting under about 20,000 PSI of pressure. The sealent they use permeates the castings pores and closes it up tighter than a drum. This is the only way to do it right. Sometimes having the casting electropainted will do a really good job of sealing things up but you mare relying only on the finish itself for the seal. Although an electropainted finish is pretty doggone durable! As for Soundhead bearings, Never use a bearing with any type of seal, rubber, or felt, on the rotaty stabilizer shaft. All you are doing is to introduce excessive drag on it and add to the wow & flutter spec. Only use bearings with a metal shield, or no shield at all if you can for this purpose. Use of bearings with a rubber shield on the gearbox can and does help seal it up. Another way is to pump the gearbox with 90 weight gear lube instead of oil. The gear lube will not run out very much. Mobil makes a great synthetic 90 weight gear lube that works great for this purpose. It does not go ransid and stink up the booth either. Oil sight glasses can be had from either Wolk or your local bearing distributer and are easy to get. The whole assembley in machines brass costs only 15 dollars or so. These too may leak even when new but they come apart and can be sealed up permanently by putting just the slightest amount of silicon on the ends of the glass sight tube before re-assembling.
MArk @ GTS
Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 07-20-2001, 01:45 PM:
I have received my first Simplex XL - SH 1000 projector last weekend, and I am aware of the lightweight casting, so it must be aluminium or so. This type of casting- unlike cast iron - always has small holes in thestructure, and is very likely to drain oil through the metal, even with gaskets intact. Normally theese mechanisms stay dry when new as they were painted with oil resistant paint on the inside, but once the oil has creeped under the inside paint it starts cavity soaking through the casting. So it is pretty natural for every projector made of Al-Si or similar casting to leak. A German example wascalled Ernemann 8, always leaking oil, whereas the Bauer, made of heavy duty cast iron rarely leaked through the casting.
The only wayto get theese babies drey is totally overhaul and retreat the inside mechanism with the special paint.
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 07-20-2001, 11:38 PM:
Can someone elaborate on this idea of porous aluminum? I’ve never heard of this. It seems that if the casting was so porous as to allow oil through, it would be very weak structurally and distort when pressure (from mounting screws, etc.) were applied.
Posted by Art Averett (Member # 367) on 07-21-2001, 07:58 AM:
Ballantyne Pro 35 and 70 straight shaft.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-21-2001, 07:51 PM:
Typically Ballantynes should not leak a drop unless there are bad seals or O rings. In that case its time for an overhaul. They can be made not to leak again if the job is doen properly.
Mark @ GTS
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-21-2001, 07:56 PM:
Indeed they can be porus but keep in mind that this is microscopic type porus and it takes the oil quite some time to make its way through. I have machined close to 100 X-L's for TU-2000 turretts in my own shop and when you get to a thin enough piece of alumnium that is going to be machined off anyway, it is usually possible to break it away and when you do that its easy to see the crystalline structure at edge of the metal. Later X-L's of the Simplex 35 variety have much stronger castings as do recent X-L's. And everyone thinks the older X-L's are better? They simply are not as good in the main casting department.
MArk @ GTS
Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 07-21-2001, 11:01 PM:
Somebody mentioned a "special paint" or coating on the inside of the main casting to prevent the oil from leaking through the wall of the projector...Is this why the insides of all of my Brenkerts are painted RED ? I've always wondered why the inside of the gear train housing was painted.
------------------
Barry Floyd
Floyd Entertainment Group
Nashville, Tennessee
(Drive-In Theatre - Start-Up)
Posted by Stefan Scholz (Member # 147) on 07-22-2001, 07:02 AM:
Yes, it is the red paint to cover the porous castings from soaking from the start. But once it's started, the capilary effects starts going.
Posted by Will Morrow (Member # 792) on 07-22-2001, 11:39 AM:
Mark G is RIGHT about the the Vic 4's. We have 11 of them at the theater I work at, and about 8 or 9 of them leak oil. They are messy machines. But, they are what we have, and they do throw a decent picture on our screens.
Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 07-23-2001, 12:19 PM:
I don't like the drain plug on the front of my Simplex 1014
below the sight glass. When I try to drain it into a cup
it gets all over the motor mount. Is there some way you
can screw a fitting in
place of the drain plug & slip a flexible plastic piece of tubing
onto it then have a removale plug on the other end?
I want to have the tubing stick into the cup to keep things from
getting messy.
Posted by David Whitbeck (Member # 894) on 07-23-2001, 01:37 PM:
Will, you say you are using some Vic 4's. We have one just laying around and I want to use it couse our Simplex 35's basically suck. They leak a decent amount but nothing like our sister theatre's X-L's those are pretty nasty. Anyway, I had been told that you couldn't hook up stereo heads to the Vic 4 and maybe you'd be able to hook up a penthouse reader but that's it. What are your machines like soundhead wise?
Posted by Carl King (Member # 398) on 07-23-2001, 02:28 PM:
Vic 4s leak around the gear door as well as the oil plunger on the operating side. I use 4 of them and they all leak. Good steady image, though. I can't say the same for the Vic 8s that I use. They don't leak much oil but are a little shaky on the screen.Maybe I should put them all in a bag and shake them up. Might get a non leaking /steady projector that way.
Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 07-23-2001, 02:35 PM:
Hi Mark!In response to machining aluminum! The EPA frowns on it 
, and it puts off very noxius fumes, but automatic transmission fluid is one of the best cutting fluids when machining aluminum!
I am assuming that the problem parts are sand cast. If they are, then remember that the casting process will leave a thin "skin" of silica and metal on the surface which will reck havoc on the cutting tool. If this is the case, then go a little deep on your first cut starting off the part so that you can get below that "skin".
Sounds like these parts are a low grade casting. You don't see oil leaking through aluminum engine blocks--do ya?
What about hard anodizing--yes, it is expensive, but is should work. There are also a variety of epoxy primers/sealers on the market.
Another solution. If the origonal patterns are in existance, they may be able to be modified to allow the parts to be investment-cast in brass?
Posted by Michael Miron (Member # 934) on 07-23-2001, 03:35 PM:
I'll chime in voting for Brenkert - our BX-40s have consistent drips. I've been told by service company it's due to their design and when I finally got a look at some mechanical drawings it was clear there are bushings in most places where sealed bearings might be used today, so some oil will always migrate through at those places. When I replaced the gear cover recently after an oil drain/fill I smeared Permatex #2 on the rubber gasket (as per the vintage manual copy) and that may have helped along the perimeter...