This is topic Change lens turret to Flat in between EVERY show? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 07-20-2001, 08:42 AM:
OK, I gots a problem, tell me I'm wrong here:
I've basically been ordered to have all projectors showing scope films to automatically switch the lens, apertures and masking to Flat at the end of every show, and switch everything back to Scope when "Start" is pressed. The main reason for this being they want the intermission slides shown on the full-size flat screen, which I won't argue with, but also because the scope lenses are the large kind and opening the turret will bang them against the projector- I checked this and found only two that actually touch the projector when open, the rest come a bit close but do not make any contact. I usually thread with the turrets closed anyway and have told others to be extremely gentle with them; I would think that wear and tear on the motors would be a lot worse than any possible damage from the lens being close to the projector, plus the aperture gets moved back and forth when it doesn't need to.
ALSO, and this is a BIG one, as I'm VERY particular about this- the lens and aperture do NOT always fall perfectly back into place- adjusting the turret up and down by hand is usually necessary when a lens is changed as it won't be perfectly centered on screen. It's usually just a hair of black at the top or bottom which some would call being 'too picky', but it's just not right to show a film without the picture PERFECTLY centered. Usually Thursday nights when films change I run light on the screen just to make sure the lens and aperture are perfectly centered, and if they get to stay that way the whole time the film is on that screen then there's no problem. Of course if the automation has to switch them every show, this goes completely out the window. (Yes, I've used the allen wrenches to horizontally and vertically align the lenses- the motor still won't always put them back in the exact same place every time without having to adjust by hand.)
When we were told to do this, I went along with it to see how it went. The first day someone else worked up there under this new arrangement, one of the apertures did not get pushed back fully into place and they had to call me to ask how to adjust it. When I came in after someone else's shift, I found several screens with the lens aimed either too high or too low, one where the automation didn't even move the masking up even though it was set to do it, and when it came time for me to start shows I had a few start with the picture almost on the ceiling because the motor couldn't move the lens back fast enough! After that I gave up and had everything like it was before, but I've basically been ordered to go back to having it change so I really can't disobey that.
I would think the sensible thing to do would be to change the automation so that ONLY the masking is adjusted between shows, but our technician says the lens has to move too to avoid hitting the projector and everyone else is respecting that.
Does anyone here think this makes sense? I've never heard of doing this in the 9 years I've been working in projection booths and this really seems to have a lot more negatives than positives going for it. This is going to mean I will have to 'tweak' the lenses on just about EVERY show to get them right, and the other people running the booth who have only a few months experience will have one more thing to worry about which I feel is unnecessary. Any thoughts from others here would help a lot- and if you think my opinion on this is wrong, I'll just shut up.
Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 07-20-2001, 09:26 AM:
LOL, referring to a different thread, if you don't like the policies set by the company, you can always leave... 
Seriously, I would try to find out who gave the original order and why. Have lenses been damaged at other theatres or at your theatre because of opening the turret while in scope? A couple of broken lenses usually make at least one person in corporate sit up and ask why.
The problem, it would seem, is that your turrets and plates aren't locking into place properly. Is this something that can be fixed? The same person who had the idea of changing position every show might be interested in getting constant reports of "film started showing on ceiling, turret malfunctioning." Communication and documentation are key issues. In a responsive situation, a few of these would get your turrets repaired or replaced. In a non-responsive situation, it might get the technician to start agreeing with you that the lenses should be left in place. Otherwise, he'll be hard pressed to explain why he can't fix the things and upset that he has to keep coming out to try.
Posted by Evans A Criswell (Member # 381) on 07-20-2001, 10:03 AM:
There is one theatre in my area that has everything be set for flat at the beginning of the show. Scope films are always shown with a flat "fire marshall" trailer, and usually a few assorted flat trailers, then a scope changeover is done and at the end of the movie, it changes back to flat. I have not noticed inconsistent alignments on repeat visits to auditoriums in this theatre. In fact, the alignment seems remarkably consistent from show to show. This theatre uses Christie projectors.All other theatres typically set everything up for flat or scope beforehand and run everything at one setting.
I'd say if Carmike 10 has been making the change between every show for scope films and has not had any major alignment problems as a result (since March 5, 1998), either they're constantly readjusting, or the practice isn't causing alignment drift.
I thought about this back in 1998 and asked Clayton Snell, then the manager of Carmike 10, and calculated the number of times per week that the turret, aperutre plate, and masking would have to move per week compared to just once per week (at most) the other way. I don't remember his exact response, but he indicated that it did no harm. I had another manager of another theatre, while he was showing me how an aperture plate mechanism worked, say that it was good for the mechanisms to get moved frequently. It's an interesting issue.
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Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Info Site
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 07-20-2001, 12:22 PM:
I definitely agree with Jerry; The turrets and aperture plates should be working correctly. I feel that’s more important than this flat/scope issue. It’s great that you adjust them when starting, but you can’t work every single shift! You didn’t say what kind of projectors and turrets you have. I’ve never seen where even an anamorphic lens contacted the projector. Perhaps you can put a rubber bumper (or equiv) somewhere to keep it from hitting.
Many automations are designed to automatically return the lens and masking to flat at the end of the show, or when powering up the equipment. I guess yours does not. What kind of automation?
As far as the wear on the aperture or turret motor, I think it would be minimal. I’ve got eight projectors with turrets. For the first six years, we changed formats on the fly, and I think two went bad in the whole time.
Trailers are available in both formats now; we no longer cue from one to another while running. If the feature is flat, we get all flat trailers, etc.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-20-2001, 02:27 PM:
Jesse, is your theater using the infernal Val Morgan slide shows from hell?
Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 07-20-2001, 02:46 PM:
I agree that just moving the masking without disturbing the lens would be the ideal solution. Is there a fuse you can pull just for the turret, or does the revolving turret actuate a micro-switch that changes the masking?
Posted by Tom Ferreira (Member # 70) on 07-20-2001, 03:00 PM:
Brad, is it Val Morgan or slide shows in general that you find hellish? We have a contract with Val Morgan, and they're really not bad people to deal with, the presentation is interesting(if you don't see it every day), and the $ is a nice chunk of change on the P & L. If something goes wrong with the equipment, they replace it immediately. There's a lot worse out there for on screen than Val Morgan.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-20-2001, 03:12 PM:
Not to sugar-coat this, Val Morgan is my experience is the anti-Christ of slide shows. This company demands bs like this as well as other equally assinine policies such as having the house lights almost all the way down during their slide shows. (The "half light" for previews wasn't even enough to make them happy, they ordered it to be dimmed further and prohibited "full up". Yes, our customer's safety climbing stadium seating can be damned.) On top of that, they wouldn't allow us to run the slide lamp on full brightness and insisted we run it on the dim setting. This was because slide projector bulbs were too expensive for them. One lady actually said we needed to "dim the movie projectors to match the brightness of their slide show"! They did not provide us with any support on repairing the projectors and the personnel were very rude. I remember one day getting a lecture about how it was our responsibility to calibrate the speed controls on the projectors. This lady had a STOPWATCH and was furious because she found a projector that was changing .2 seconds late. (She is very lucky I did not further dent up a Technicolor can with her head.) I could go on and on. I have nothing nice to say about that company. They give on-screen advertising a bad name.
Jesse, it IS Val Morgan, isn't it?
Posted by Jerry Chase (Member # 660) on 07-20-2001, 03:58 PM:
"One lady actually said we needed to 'dim the movie projectors to match the brightness of their slide show'!"I wonder if John P. or someone from SMPTE would care to comment further...
Brad, just to reassure you, I feel confident that you didn't sugar coat your remarks. 
Posted by Christopher Duvall (Member # 284) on 07-20-2001, 04:19 PM:
Jesse is using Cinema Screen Media. I know this for a fact... 
Jesse, don't you have Simplex's there?
------------------
Chris Duvall
General Manager
Regal Cinemas Colonnade14
Las Vegas, NV
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-20-2001, 04:30 PM:
Hmmmmm, well I've never heard of Cinema Screen Media, but Val Morgan is still a horrible company.Personally, I think that moving the masking to flat on common width screens is a HORRIBLE idea. Besides the extra wear and tear on the masking motors (and turrets if they are not disconnected), you've got an uneducated audience thinking that they are being cheated picture when the film starts. Not to mention the fact that those little slide projectors cannot properly illuminate a decent sized screen as it is. I would flat out refuse to do this (as I did with Val Morgan).
Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 07-20-2001, 04:35 PM:
All UK cinemas start their programmes in W/S (1:85.1) for the cinema ads and trialer's, so it is not uncommon over here, even screens without masking start the programme in W/S.When I was in the US several years ago I notice that cinemas do not do a format change on screenings, so lets assume that a film is in scope all trailers and supporting programme with that film will be shown in the scope ratio.
Is this still correct?
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-20-2001, 04:39 PM:
That is still correct. If a theater has common height masking, then I am all for a format change. Otherwise it is a no no in my book. The screen should never get "smaller" for the feature.
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 07-20-2001, 04:45 PM:
Yes to both questions. When I was first asked to do this I called CSM and asked if we were in fact required to raise the masking for their slides, and the person I asked didn't even understand what I was talking about! A manager says that it is in the advertisers' contract that this be done though, so I'm in no place to argue with it, though I will say I find it distasteful to have the masking change at any time the audience can see it, particularly if it's top/bottom masking. The masking in this theater is made of the same cloth as the rest of the auditoriums and blends in very well, so at first glance you can't even tell it's there. In many auditoriums the house lights drown out the slides too much; some actually are a lot more readable when centered on a screen masked for scope than they are when brought all the way out for flat because the lights shine in the corners.
I haven't been too impressed with this slide presentation though; there are a LOT of outdated slides, a few almost 2 years outdated (one advertises an offer that expired sometime in 1999), another advertises a "Winter Special" even though it's the middle of July, and there are some Christmas-themed slides still up promoting gift certificates. I've been told that we at the theater are not responsible for this however, people from CSM come in and change them though they never seem to do it when I'm there so I can ask if they know they have so many outdated slides. They are the only people who can bring us slide projector bulbs too, and they have been slow in that department- we once had five projectors out for a week because we had run out of bulbs, I called them and let them know, and they ended up sending the wrong size bulbs, so I had to call them back, and finally they brought enough to replace the ones that were out but not enough spares so now others are going out with nothing to replace them.
When I started working at this theater, most of the slides were unreadable in one corner because the reflector portion of the slide projector had a lot of dust built-up on it; I cleaned all of those and do so on a regular basis now.
As I said though, I'm not in a position to argue with how the slides are presented, my concern here is that having the lens and apertures move is going to compromise the film presentation- most of the lenses move 'in the ballpark' but as I said I will not settle for them not being PERFECTLY centered. When this theater opened they were running flat trailers on scope films and cuing the lenses to change, but they stopped because it didn't always work.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-20-2001, 04:55 PM:
Jesse, I see no reason why you cannot intercept the automation from changing the lens/aperture, but make sure you put some sort of switch so you CAN switch formats without physically forcing the lenses.By the way, you never said what kind of automation and projectors you are using.
On the house light issue, I pointed this out to the theater that was running the evil Val Morgan shows, but apparently this easy solution was too difficult to comprehend. As I found out, removing just ONE house light bulb was all it took to prevent the light from shining on the screen during the slides (washing them out). We're talking one bulb out of perhaps 30. This would have been the safer alternative for the patrons to keep from falling in those stadium auditoriums, but to hell with their safety, right? Right! 
Anyway, before you go dimming the lights during the slides you might want to take a look at which particular bulbs are shining onto the screen. You may be in that same situation and just perhaps, the corporate people may have a few more brain cells at your theater.
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 07-20-2001, 05:00 PM:
Automation is Strong CNA-100 with "Millenium" model Simplex projectors. As I said, when I came in during someone else's shift they had not moved the masking back into position. It worked on every show I started though; just had problems with the lenses going back so they were perfectly aligned with the screen.
Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 07-20-2001, 05:36 PM:
As far as slides:Being a 20 plex, and quite often running both flat and scope double/mixed features on one screen, we did the following. We just set the slide projectors on all screens with the masking in the scope format. It looked good and was well centered. Of course we had to change masking between shows--did we have complaints--none that I can remember. Just be sure that the formats and masking are in the correct formats, otherwise you will have complaints!
As far as turrets. Personally, I do not like them, but they are here. I remembered Projectionists who removed lenses at the end of the day and put them into cases with moisture absorbing packs. How many of you use lens caps? Automatic turrets and aperture changers are a lazy way out and are a bunch of 
!
And about the Christie manual turret and trap. Depending on your set-up, the turret may be too close to the port window to allow it to fully open. Some type of padding needs to be used to keep the turret from hitting and scratching the port window. And if you have a limited amount of turret space, be careful on how you open the trap, as it can hit the lens. There are also some adjustments on the Christie turret hinge and lock that need to be monitored. These parts can loosen up and cause the turret to shake during the show--makes for a nice steady picture!
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-20-2001, 05:49 PM:
Will, Christie has fixed that turret problem. I don't have the part number handy, but pictured below is a what I am speaking of. Change out that part and the problem is gone. 
Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 07-20-2001, 06:10 PM:
The screen should never get "smaller" for the feature.Sadly the local Multiplex Cinema where I am, built about 10 years ago had this problem and still lacks proper side masking only top!.
can't think anything worst than watching a movie in cinemascope with the main picture smaller than the ads & trailers, even the local Art House that I work for a while had top masking in the small screen, this was at a Theatre that claimed they were the best place to see a movie.
And they have no Tabs!
Posted by Christopher Duvall (Member # 284) on 07-20-2001, 06:20 PM:
Jesse,
You need to contact your DM ASAP about CSM having outdated slides. That is a very serious breech of contract and somebody's head will roll (not yours, of course) for not keeping up on that. You should have a CSM rep in there every other week or so checking on that.Good luck...
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Chris Duvall
General Manager
Regal Cinemas Colonnade14
Las Vegas, NV
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-20-2001, 07:19 PM:
OK, I think it's a bone head idea to do it but if you must...I am thinking, that if you have the C.E. FM-35 failsafe/cue detector, you are likely to have a bouple of unused cues hanging out on your system. That unit has 8 possible states:
0 - No cues. Normal running.
1 - Outboard cue only.
2 - Center cue only.
3 - Center and outboard cues.
4 - Inboard cue only.
5 - Inboard and outboard cues.
6 - Inboard and center cues.
7 - All three cues.
(I always think of them as if they were a 3-bit binary number.)
Usually, only three or four of them are being used and the others aren't even connected to anything. Assuming that your automation is 24v/low voltage, I'd think it'd be a simple matter to run wires from the cue detector out to the switches that manually control the masking. Just hook them in parallel. That way all you have to do is put cues on the film in the proper places.
Now for the strategy... 
Make sure you tell the bosses that you CAN do this and ask for their permission before you do. Total up the cost of the wiring and connectors that you might need. Add a few bucks for good measure. If they know they have to spend money to do this they are likely to decide against it.
Use lots of words like "MODIFY" and "REWIRE". For instance, say, "Oh yeah! I can modify the projectors! All I have to do is rewire a few things." Those words are scary to people who don't understand machines.
Once you get their attention give them the "knockout punch"... Say, "All I have to do is retrain all of the people who run the projectors how to do it..."
Make like you are really eager to do this thing and go into a lot of detail about how you are going to do it.
We all know how bosses are. After you give them this "treatment" I am willing to bet they'll change their minds.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-20-2001, 07:29 PM:
Will - Why would you remove the lenses at night? That seems like overkill; instead, I would favor fixing the "dust in the booth" problem. Of course the lenses need to be removed when doing a thorough cleaning every few weeks, but I wouldn't bother for day-to-day operation. Of course, lenses should be capped and stored in proper cabinets when not in use.
My personal feeling about turrets is that they're probably a good idea for the typical gigaplex that will never run anything in any format other than scope or flat/1.85 and that they would be a bad idea for screening rooms and other facilites that have four or more sets of lenses and regularly need to change formats.
Note that the only turret machines that I've worked with are Cinemeccanicas. I have not worked with the Simplex turret machines and I don't think I've ever even seen the Century turret conversion, so I can't say if they are any good.
Posted by Tom Ferreira (Member # 70) on 07-20-2001, 07:43 PM:
Must be a real slow day in the theaters-I just posted my comments on Val Morgan this afternoon, and we're already on the 2nd page! No business out there??
Seriously, I'll have to check my Val Morgan contract-I do not recall any of those stipulations that you mentioned, Brad. I can see where there would be a safety concern with the house light level.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-20-2001, 08:17 PM:
It wouldn't surprise me if Val Morgan makes different contracts for different theaters. The smarter theaters would force them to rewrite the contract to eliminate some of the crazy parts while the theaters desperate for cash would just sign on "as is" for the money.
Posted by Tom Kroening (Member # 201) on 07-21-2001, 03:29 AM:
When I worked for Regal in FL i believe we used cinema screen for our ads. I really didn't have any compaints with them. As far as I know we were not required to run a slide show in flat. Every Friday morning I would adjust the zoom on the top masking scope houses so it would run that way for the week. I agree that the screen should NEVER get smaller for the feature. When I trained at one of the other Regals down there im pretty sure they had the automation set to switch to flat at the end of the show, and back to the correct format at the start of the show. It's a great idea on side masking scope houses. It looks really nice having the screen open wide for the feature. It looks even better running flat trailors and having a format change before the feature. As far as this being an order from the advertisers, i highly doubt it. Most people don't even know there are many different aspect ratio's to film. You should probably still get your auto turots fixed despite this new policy.
Posted by Michael Cunningham (Member # 210) on 07-21-2001, 05:04 AM:
Actually, I too have Strong Simplexes with turrets and I know what Jesse means about the lenses not being centered. Those Strong turrets have about a half inch of free play in them. You can grab one of the lenses and rotate the turret that far before it hits it's stops. Also, if his theatre uses garage door openers to move masking, those things will only work from a cue about 75% of the time. When pushing the hard-wired button to activate them, you will often have to press it a few times to get the masking to move. This makes automated changeovers a very bad idea, at least in my opinion.-Mike
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-21-2001, 08:57 PM:
Brad said: "As I found out, removing just ONE house light bulb was all it took to prevent the light from shining on the screen during the slides (washing them out). We're talking one bulb out of perhaps 30."One way to identify the lights that are shining on the screen is to get close to the screen and cast a shadow with a pole. Eliminate or reposition the lights until there are no shadows on the dark screen.
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 09-23-2001, 09:31 PM:
Tom - which Regals did you work at?I've worked for Regal for three years. I opened a theatre last year, and the corporate trainer told us it is Regal policy (he never mentioned anything about CSM policy) to have the masking default back to flat after every show. I did not understand why, and he explained it is mainly for presentation reasons when the masking opens up when the show starts to make the screen wider. I defintely agree about not moving top masking, but I guess they just want to maintain a uniform polcy. (BTW, we had Strong CNA-150 automation, which was all digital and could be programmed to do just about everything except take a for you. It was just a matter of programming to keep the masking at scope or flat when it reads the show end cue.)
Some Regals have a slide manager from CSM come to the theatre every 2 weeks. At my current theatre, I am the slide manager, and I receive the slides by priority mail every 2 weeks. In either case, you should call them. They are very helpful. And I think you can order bulbs from them, too.
Posted by Freddie Dobbs (Member # 915) on 09-24-2001, 09:27 PM:
Jesse,If you have a CNA 100 you can use the AUX contacts hardwired to the masking control to do what you want, just program an AUX on at the end of the program and it will set the masking to where you want it without moving the turret. Just a siide note, the turret should be set and not moved, if you are having to adjust the lens to a "center" position there is a problem that needs corrected. Reading over your post it sounds like the pin is not seating properly on the turret or the aperture plate is not being held in place and moves up or down in it's travel. If you have the PR2000 the turret should "rock" into place.
Posted by Freddie Dobbs (Member # 915) on 09-24-2001, 09:39 PM:
Michael,What model machine do you have? If it is the older "before Millennium” It has a piece of spring steel that holds the lens holder against the shaft, it usually gets sprung from twisting the lens in holder against it, thus allowing the lens holder to flop...
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 09-28-2001, 04:36 AM:
Well, I tried talking some sense into these people, but they wouldn't listen. I finally found a new job in a different field and left this place; I guess they are going to have to find out the hard way what a ridiculous idea this is. One screen currently has the scope lens set way too far off to the left; it was perfect when I'd adjusted it a long time ago before they made us start doing this. It's depressing that I was the one who cared the most about this place and they were willing to have me leave over something like this (if I'd refused to do what they told me I would've been fired).
For the record, they STILL have a LOT of outdated slides onscreen too- I let the district manager know about this and someone from the slide company came and did some re-organizing, but several outdated slides remain. I especially love the ones for "AFI 100 Year, 100 Laughs: A CBS-TV Event This June" which should have been pulled after June of LAST YEAR!
Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 04-24-2002, 06:08 PM:
Must be a policy of Regal Cinemas. Let's hope that does not trickle down to UA and Edwards!When I go into an auditorium I always check the screen so I can tell if the feature is in flat or scope.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-24-2002, 07:51 PM:
Jesse, I am not sure what you are trying to say about the lense. Are you saying that at the end of a scope movie, they want the lense changed back to flat even though the next movie is scope? And, then change back to scope at the start of the next scope movie?I see no logic for having such a policy being implemented. All it will do is eventually knock something out of alignment, and create a "gotcha" situation where the wrong lense will be used at the start of the movie.
I wonder what spurred that idea in the first place.......
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-24-2002, 10:18 PM:
Paul's right--it just sounds like a dumb idea.It makes about as much sense as the damn AMC "cut the ratings bands off trailers" policy.
Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 04-25-2002, 01:59 AM:
Probably because if you have top masking, the slides can always be as big as possible.
Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 04-25-2002, 07:44 AM:
Top Masking *shudder*
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 04-25-2002, 12:35 PM:
I'm still not sure if this was policy for all Regal theaters, but I was basically told to either do this or be fired, so I immediately started looking for another job, which took me 2 months. During that time I just did everything the way they told me to, and I wrote a letter to the district manager explaining why this was such a bad idea but never received a response, so as soon as I was hired at my new (non-theater) job I put in my 2 weeks' notice, giving this as my reason for leaving. The general manager did not want me to leave, but had to uphold this policy so that was that. I don't know how this theater is doing now but if anyone has been there recently I would like to know. Believe it or not, I still care about this place- I can't drive by it without feeling sad, though I haven't been in there since my last day of work (September 24th.) My biggest grudge is that this theater had several sound-related problems when I started working there which were probably present for the year the place had already been open; ALL of which I fixed (partly with help from this site) but I received NO thanks whatsoever and was even scolded for asking about it on this forum instead of letting someone at the company know- my answer to that was that it had already been open a year and nobody there had noticed, so I didn't see much good in talking to them about it.
For what I know this was not a nationwide policy, but supposedly at least all the Regals in CA had to do this. I've seen other theaters with top masking have it always change to Flat for the slides, and it's just silly. The slides don't look any better for doing this and I've always believed that the masking should NEVER move when the customers are there to see it- only exception being a double feature when this is unavoidable.
I did enjoy working at this theater a great deal until this started; I'd gladly go back if they aren't doing this anymore.
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 04-25-2002, 12:40 PM:
Oh yeah- as for the lenses also changing along with the masking, the reasoning for that was that the large scope lenses would "bang" into the projector when the turret was opened for threading- this came from the same technician who apparently never noticed the sound problems (clicking in left surround in most auditoriums and one screen's amp set to play the front left and center channels mixed together!) I checked all 16 projectors to see if this really was a problem, and only on two of them did the lens come close enough where it might cause some damage, and that would have been better solved by installing foam padding on the projector. Having the turrets and aperture plates change constantly made it impossible to have the picture perfectly aligned onscreen.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-25-2002, 01:47 PM:
OK. Jesse, that makes sense.
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 04-25-2002, 04:47 PM:
Paul,Don't know if it's a strictly enforced policy, but at my last theater (I'm in such a habbit of saying that; technically it's now two theaters ago for me) which I helped open, we were told to program the automation (CNA 150) to go back to flat at the end of the show. I could see why (although not agree with it) for top masking, but why for side masking? Like I said, it wasn't strictly enforced. After we opened, I never heard another word about that policy, and I doubt anyone would have cared if I reprogrammed them to stay in scope if it's a scope feature. (Something I wish I had done.)
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This one time, at Projection Camp, I stuck a xenon bulb....
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 04-25-2002, 07:39 PM:
Ken, I was referring to the possible damage to the lense if it slams into the side of the machine. As far as the masking is conerned, it shouldn't be bothered too much by the change, unless the rigging is screwed up. But I can add that with movable top masking, that is one heck of a lot of weight. Eventually, if excercized excessively, it is going to break especially if there is no counterweight.
Sorry about the confusion.
Paul
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-25-2002, 07:53 PM:
I was servicing a automation the other day and its built in default always ends the show returning to flat
Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 07-01-2002, 05:55 PM:
Bumping this up for our newbies.I've come across this situation twice in the past 2 weeks:
(1) AMC Hamilton, 5 PM matinee, Bad Company, 6/23. Bad Company is in scope. Before the show the screen was set to flat while the slides played. As soon as the projectionist hit the start button the masking adjusted to scope -- just in time for the NCN snipe that starts the preshow.
(2) Edgewater Multiplex, 7:15 PM show, Ya-Ya Sisterhood, 6/30. This hall has a double-up of Insomnia (flat) and Ya-Ya Sisterhood (scope). The screen remained flat throughout the slides. When the projectionist hit the start button the masking adjusted for scope -- just in time for the Jimmy Fund promo. Also, the masking in this hall is top masking only 
and makes a scope image look smaller than a flat image. The masking returned to flat when the shutdown cue passed through.
Both of these halls are small-to-medium size seating about 125-150.
Brad, Christopher: Cinema Screen Media has been renamed Regal CineMedia AFAIK. It handles slides for UA/Regal/Edwards nationwide and Destinta in the Northeast, among other chains.
Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 07-01-2002, 10:06 PM:
When I worked with Century projectors, the flat lens would get banged up by the gate if it was opened too hard. But if the turret is opened you've got no problem, that is assuming the port hole isn't in closer proximity to the turret.As far was vertical vs. horizontal masking goes, vertical does have its advantages for the screens that force a scope image to the walls because of poor construction planning But people do like their movies bigger I guess...
Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 07-02-2002, 01:55 AM:
Charles, Insomnia and Ya Ya are both scope
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-03-2002, 08:49 AM:
I don`t understand how you can run the whole show in scope if the feature is in scope and in flat if the feature is flat. Don`t you show commercials? Or do you just have slides for ads and then start a trailer show and the feature? Over here, we always have about 20 minutes of flat commercials, then some trailers, a short break for ice cream sales, then the feature. So you can switch the format to scope during the break. Some theaters also play the trailers after the break, and since most of the trailers are flat, they "hotswitch" the format to scope after the trailers, but I abolished that in our new theater because I think after the break the show should start without any further nuisance from commercials or trailers. Personally, I hate trailers because they show you the whole movie. Nowadays slide shows are extremely rare in Germany, only some small theaters still have them for local ads.
Michael
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-03-2002, 08:57 AM:
In the US, trailers are available in both formats (flat and scope). Scope trailers of flat films either have black bars on the sides of the picture to mask it to 1.85 or use a sort of vertical pan-and-scan approach to the original film. Flat trailers of scope films are either "letterboxed" or panned-and-scanned from the source material.Many of the larger chains do show commercials; these are often shot on video and printed in 35mm. Again, they are available in both formats.
Slides are quite common in the US, at least among the major theatre chains. Often the slide ads and film ads are provided by the same company. For example, NCN provides slides, film ads, non-sync music ("Movie Tunes"), and lobby brochures to AMC. There are a couple of other major ad companies as well. Some smaller theatres make up their own slides.
As you can see, it is very rare in the US to have a lens/masking change between ads/trailers and the feature.
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-03-2002, 09:54 AM:
quote:
Cinema Screen Media has been renamed Regal CineMedia AFAIK.
So that's what that is! I've heard the name a few times and I've been wondering what the heck it is.
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-03-2002, 07:25 PM:
Thanks for the information.
I couldn`t understand the original post because it hadn`t occurred to me that you might have "ordinary" commercials in scope. It strikes me as a bit odd though to have the same commercials in two different formats. After all, the lens turrets are there to change formats qickly.
We change the format (by automation) to flat after every scope show so the masking is flat-ready at the beginning of the next show (which always starts in flat because that is the only format for comm. here). So the audience won`t see the masking move inwards when the show starts. Since more and more features are in the scope format, our turrets get a lot of exercise. That is also a bit problematic because here Kinoton projectors are very common and while they are generally good projectors, the turrets have been a weak spot on a number of different models. They would often get stuck while changing the format.
Doesn`t that mean that you have to have different commercial reels for the same screen if you play a flat movie in the afternooon and a scope one in the evening? Do you edit the reels yourselves or do you get them pre-edited every week? I also wonder why the commercial agencies take the trouble to keep dual inventories which can hardly be cost-effective.
Do you play the commercials in digital or analogue?
Michael
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 07-03-2002, 07:41 PM:
In the US most theaters that run ads have them on the platter at the beginning of the show. Where I worked each ad came on a separate piece of film (usually anywhere from 15 to 60 seconds long), and each ad was supposed to show a given number of weeks, starting on Friday and coming off after the last show Thursday. Most of them had Dolby Digital soundtracks, and they all came in both flat and scope formats, the scope versions were always matted on the sides (including one for Clairol that was 1.33 TV ratio!), which of course made it even sillier that they decided to have the top masking move up for the slides and move down when the first thing shown is matted on the sides!
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 07-04-2002, 02:21 AM:
Michael said:
quote:
After all, the lens turrets are there to change formats quickly. We change the format (by automation)...
Most of our theatres have had all the motors removed from their turrets on V5's so that someone doesn't accidentally rotate the turret with the gate door open and smash a lense into the door. Therefore automatically switching formats is not possible since the turret must be rotated by hand (but still locks into position like with a motor).
In Canada we also get many of our ads in scope format that aren't matted at all. Bell Mobility and Deptartment of National Defense are a few ads (of many) that aren't matted. Coke's ads are always matted though. Nearly all ads run in Dolby Digital.
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-04-2002, 03:53 PM:
I have hammered it into the heads of our projectionists never to rotate the turret if the gate is open - which can only be the case if the operator is in the booth and has just opened it himself. There are a few platinum rules like this one that I make them recite several times over during training, so it has never happened. Another one is "I shall remove the tape holding the end of the print immediately after I have put the print on the platter or I will burn in hell forever." Still, it seems like a good precaution to disable the turret but it would be incompatible with the projection practice over here.
By the way, we always play the whole commercial reel and the trailers in analogue at -6dB to keep the processor from switching between analogue and digital all the time. It`s also a good way to deal with annoying trailer loudness.
Michael
Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 07-21-2002, 12:20 PM:
It's happened again -- flat for the slides, scope for rolling stock/trailers/feature.Where? The AMC Hamilton, yesterday on the 2:30 PM matinee of Eight Legged Freaks. Same auditorium (#9) as when I saw Bad Company.
Posted by James R. Hammonds, Jr (Member # 673) on 07-21-2002, 01:06 PM:
If youre going to AMC, get used to it.
You should be by now.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-21-2002, 03:03 PM:
I fill in sometimes as an AMC projectionist (wow, does it hurt to say that!), and I've never heard of this practice. Is it new? Maybe they haven't issued the order to the former GCC houses, yet.
Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 07-21-2002, 03:09 PM:
This didn't happen at the AMC Hamilton when I saw In the Bedroom (aud. #21 on 1/5), Gosford Park (aud. #2 on 1/26) or All About the Benjamins (aud. #12 on 3/9).AFAIK this might be only in aud. #9 or -- as James speculates -- a new AMC policy.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-21-2002, 03:20 PM:
It is possible that the theatres with fix side masking need to raise the top masking to flat for the slide presentations
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 07-21-2002, 03:22 PM:
How nice to see this come back up exactly one year after this all went down, eventually causing me to get out of the theatre business for the first time in 10 years. I'm still at my new job and pretty happy, but miss the theatre business and will get back in as soon as the right thing comes along (a few months ago I got an offer to come back to my old theatre but they weren't able to give me health benefits so I had to turn them down.)
If anyone knows how this theatre is doing these days, please let me know, as I still care about the place believe it or not. I still think the practice of changing the masking for slides is just plain wrong, though.
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 07-21-2002, 07:00 PM:
At our chain, most of our projector automations change the lens turret to flat at the end of every show. It's done to make the slide projector ads look better. This would be tough to *not* do, since one "flat" relay has the contacts for both the turret and the masking.Some of our theaters use the CineQ automation. With these, the masking and the turret can be controlled separately. This automation has a microprocessor that executes script files. I'm currently re-writing the script files for several things, one of which is to return the masking to flat without rotating the turret.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-21-2002, 08:26 PM:
quote:
"I shall remove the tape holding the end of the print immediately after I have put the print on the platter or I will burn in hell forever."
And that's why I make it mandatory for a minimum of 20 feet of acetate tail leader on any plattered print. Even if they do forget and leave the tail taped, it won't knock rollers out of alignment and cause damage. Being acetate tail, it will just snap.
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 07-22-2002, 01:38 AM:
"It's done to make the slide projector ads look better."How does it make them look better?
Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 07-23-2002, 02:06 AM:
I don't think that slide ads can ever look better, just bigger (and darker and more out of focus if projected on an angle).
Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 07-23-2002, 06:19 AM:
Brad
So are you saying you would show your adverts and trailers in scope if the feature is scope, just so that your feature image isn't vertically smaller than the support?
So you are agreeing to stretch all the support, dont you think a flat trailer for a scope film (i.e leterboxed 1.85:1 image) would look mighty shitte!
I agree that it looks best if the feature, if in scope is a bigger picture than 1.85, but all stectching support just so you can have the same size picture would be just bad bad presentation i belive. Most late 80's early 90's mulitiplexes in the U.K use just a top mask in there smaller screens, hey it looks shitte but if you want good presentation you would be best to go to a modern mulitplex with larger screens, or search for the local quality independent cinema.As long as the feature is shown in the correct ratio and sound format, and in a perfect world all scope would be bigger than 1.33/1.66/1.85, but due to money being the final decider in mulitiplex design.
I often show 1.66 and 1.33 films and run 1.85 support before them. In one of my three screens 1.66 uses the biggest screen area, 1.85 and scope use about the same screen area, as I have top and side masking, so the shape changes but doesnt reduce the screen area.
In the other two screens with side masking only, 1.33 is obviously smaller than 1.85, but as it is still 4.5m high, its a big picture.
So I say if you want 'FILM DONE RIGHT', show the correct ratio's even for the adverts and trailers.
Darren )
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-23-2002, 08:45 PM:
Darren in North America almost all trailers and adverts are available in both flat and scope so the issue isn't show it in the wrong format just don't make the feature look small
Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 07-24-2002, 03:23 PM:
Cheers Gordon for the info, here in the U.K Scope trailers are rare and tend only to come on the heads of features. Otherwise its flat for us
A few are 1.66:1 as i show alot of arty films form europe.Cheers
Darren
Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 08-12-2002, 06:46 PM:
At least 1 UA is now changing to flat in between shows -- the UA Cortlandt Stadium in Westchester County NY. That's to accommodate the Regal Cinemedia package with video instead of slides between shows.From the way the Regal Cinemedia package is presented this might be Regal/UA/Edwards policy.
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 08-12-2002, 08:46 PM:
Jesse asked: "How does it make them [the slides] look better?"Simply that it closes the masking to frame the image better.
The problem though, is the turrets apparently take a beating. I wouldn't think changing the lens turret to flat in between every show to be that rough, but I guess it is because many of our turrets no longer "index" correctly. Of course, these are Ernamanns, which have about the worst turret "accuracy" I've ever seen.
Posted by Lewis Bohannon (Member # 1387) on 08-13-2002, 02:40 AM:
Here's my 2 cents worth...My theater is set up to return the masking, and the turret to flat after every show. One of the stipulations for having Val Morgan as our advertising company. This is how it has been since my theater opened in '97. We do not use timers, so at the start of each show, I have the oppertunity to tripple check the laceing of the projector, check the format, and when I'm happy with it I press start. Even though there is a que set to change evertyhing to scope, we do it "manually" by pressing the scope button that changes the turret and the masking. Doing this, I found I am GIVING my customers a wider screen, and if it's flat, there is no change, but I am not taking something away from them.
BUT, over the years, it has come to our tech's attention that the turrets are falling out of alignment too soon, and too frequently. Now the company wants to have us leave them in format, but that now the masking stays open. The solution is going to be to move the masking controlls to an unused button on the automation panel, while having the masking still close at the end-of-show ques. How it works out I'll have to wait and see.
Hmmm, I said 2 cents, and I gave 2 bucks.. Oh well
BTW, I run Erniman 15 projectors, and Maxi 12 pc automation if anyone's interested.
Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 10-14-2002, 09:31 AM:
More or less confirming that it's Regal/UA/Edwards policy: The Regal Warrington Crossing in Bucks County PA also resets the masking to flat between shows. This was true when I saw Igby Goes Down (a scope film) on Saturday past.
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 10-14-2002, 01:33 PM:
**sigh**
Wonder if the ads-on-video thing is going to affect this even more...
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 10-14-2002, 08:50 PM:
Regal hasn't started that nonsense here (yet). However, I've noticed that the slides are blown up a large as possible lately to fill the screen more. Which of course makes them that much more dim and unreadable.
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 04-16-2003, 05:54 PM:
Went to this theater last night for the first time after leaving over a year ago, for a free sneak preview- it was on one of the side-masking screens, but the movie was flat and they had the masking opened up to Scope through the whole show ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Checked out some of the neighboring screens and saw that they are still having the top-masking raised for the slides (they haven't gotten "The 2wenty" yet), but the lens turrets don't change anymore. I still find this distasteful and would not want to do this- the masking should not move when people are in the auditorium to see it, unless it's a double feature.
One screen was playing a scope movie with the masking on flat though (perhaps it wore out?) and the picture was also out of focus and wrapped-around on the bottom. Another was running white light on the screen, apparently it didn't stop after the previous show and nobody was upstairs to catch it ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
(someone should also have caught me theater-hopping too.) Nice to see they're getting along so well without me ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Sad thing is I still care about this place, obviously more than the people still working there.