Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Feedback on a restoration...

This is topic Feedback on a restoration... in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002498

Posted by Derek Maxwell (Member # 234) on 07-23-2001, 12:14 AM:

I am currently thinking about restoring an Intermission clock in 35mm that hasn't been for
sale since around 1960. I found an original complete 1955 print of it from a private
collector and this seems to be the only known complete print in existance but since it
hasn't been on the market for over 40 years, I was wondering if anybody would remember
it or if I would even be able to sell enough prints to even get my money out of restoring
it. I have it available on 16mm for a few years and it sells slowly but wondering if the
Drive-in community would buy it or not. What are your thoughts on it? It is called the
HUNGRY DWARF clock. I was told that the original company who made it doesn't even
have the negative for it.

------------------
http://www.drive-infilm.com

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-23-2001, 02:38 AM:

The original owner might not hold the negative for it, but he or she almost certainly does still hold the copyright (although I must admit that my knowledge of US copyright law is sketchy to say the least). Were you to attempt to commercially exploit this film (yes, even something as minor as an intermission clock) and he or she found out about it, you could be in trouble to say the least.

In this country although under the 1911 copyright act (the terms of which govern any film made before 1956, 'made' being defined as the date on which the negative was exposed), copyright lapses 50 years after the death of the author in the case of fiction, or 50 years from the date of production in the case of non-fiction.

However, if the 'author' is a company, copyright can be maintained in perpetuity, because a corporate 'author' is not deemed to have died if it is bought out, taken into receivership or a corporate asset (e.g. the rights to a film) is sold from one company to another. The reality is that pretty much everything is owned by someone. A graphic example of this is the fact that Georges Melies' widow was notorious for threatening legal action against various archives, organisations and individuals relating to the screening of his films - many of which were produced in the late nineteenth century! Another (less pleasant) one is that Leni Riefenstahl, now in her late 90s, still ferociously protects the rights to her Nazi-era productions, so much so that a conference on her planned by an English university some years back had to be abandoned because of legal threats.

Another hurdle is that the cost of restoration is not cheap, even if it's reasonably straigtforward. Recently we had deposited a locally produced sound newsreel showing celebrations for George VI's coronation in 1937 (OK, here come the comments about sad limeys...). The print runs 790 feet and consists of one 35mm b/w combined positive on Eastman type 1301 (nitrate release print) stock of 1937 manufacture. The cost of making preservation elements (a new polyester 35mm dupe neg, sound neg rerecorded from the unilateral VA original and combined viewing print) comes to £1,620 - that's well over £100 per minute of running time. If this film were in colour or a weird format then it could well have cost three times that. If this element were in less than perfect condition (e.g. scratched, shrunk, brittle or decomposed) there would have been extra costs involved in preparing it for printing, and/or printing it using specialist equipment such as an optical step printer.

For a really expensive, state of the art restoration of a major feature film, the costs are staggering. According to his commentary on the laserdisc, Robert Harris' 1998 restoration of 'Vertigo' (a VistaVision to 65mm transfer needing lots of colour fade correction) cost almost $2 million - more than many independent features cost to produce from nothing!

Posted by Derek Maxwell (Member # 234) on 07-23-2001, 05:16 PM:

We are talking PD stuff here. There is no copyright on this film and even if there originally was {which I doubt} it would have lapsed long ago. The copyright on these films from what I am told, is the same as the older movie trailers...before 1970 they are all now PD.

------------------
http://www.drive-infilm.com

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-23-2001, 10:42 PM:

Leo is correct --- "clearing" copyrights can be confusing. Even if a film is allegedly "public domain", the music used or the musical performances may still be covered under copyright. Another example may be someone used a character (cartoon or literary) copyrighted elsewhere. Probably best to consult an attorney experienced in this area.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

Posted by Tao Yue (Member # 836) on 07-24-2001, 07:31 AM:

Copyright law, once meant to grant certain rights to authors as an incentive to publish, has now become so extreme as to deprive consumers of their rights of fair use. The DMCA is an extreme example of how far we've gone in the wrong direction.

John Pytlak is absolutely right -- do NOT assume that the films are in the public domain, even if they seem otherwise to be. Films before 1970 are NOT necessarily in the public domain. That is a very common misconception. TV stations fell into that trap by showing It's a Wonderful Life. Now, it's recognized that the film (made in the 1940s, much earlier than the year of "freedom" Derek mentioned) is still copyrighted by virtue of the music used.

------------------
Tao Yue
MIT '04: Course VI-2, Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Projectionist, MIT Lecture Series Committee

Posted by Derek Maxwell (Member # 234) on 07-24-2001, 09:47 AM:

I have already looked into the copyrights of these films I restore and I know that they are PD for sure or I would never touch them at all and the labs wouldn't run them either. They are very much against running anything with a copyright. They won't touch Nitrate either. The music tracks are even generic PD music. Some of the music heard on one clock can also be heard on many other films including quite a few early MY THREE SONS episodes. So the copyright issue isn't a factor. Does anybody have any other opinions other than copyright laws?

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 07-24-2001, 11:35 AM:

The early music used on MY THREE SONS came from the collection of Capitol Records "Needle Drops." They are very-much copyrighted.

There is very little in the PD anymore. Big business has taken another chunk out of our freedoms.

Posted by Geoffrey Weiss (Member # 882) on 07-24-2001, 12:48 PM:

I'm currently working on preserving a sizeable collection of daters from made from about 1950-about 1978, and would love to see the intermission clock footage, but I doubt that there'd be a sizeable market for it.

Since Universities have all gone to video and, lately DVD, unused 16mm film sits deteriorating. People in several organizations of which I'm a member are leaning on their universities to preserve exactly the kind of film ephemera that your clock represents. By all means, restore it if you can and use it when you screen films. It's worth keeping things like this because of their historical importance. Enlist the help of film historians at the local university who may be able to assist you finding someone at least to preserve the print. But I doubt there'd be much of a market for it even if you transfered it to video and sold it as a curiosity. Now if you had "Let's all go to the lobby ..." and could clear copyright ...

Posted by Derek Maxwell (Member # 234) on 07-24-2001, 11:00 PM:

Let's all go to the Lobby is still for sale brand new from Filmack and is one of the few films like this that are still in the copyright. I have already had people check on this project years ago before I started doing it and know that most is PD.

------------------
http://www.drive-infilm.com

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-26-2001, 09:46 AM:

Links:
http://www.filmack.com/classic.html
http://www.filmack.com/index.html
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/amia-l/2000/08/msg00003.html
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/amia-l/2000/08/msg00007.html