What exactly is it that Twentieth Century Fox is afraid of with their tag? Lately every film that comes in has the audio recorded so soft that it's embarrassing, then on comes the feature and the level is where it should be.
I made up a program in the computer to get around it on Moulin Rouge because I love the film and the Fox tag needed some grunt which was (unfortunately) not provided...so when the opening began the volume went up to 8.6...then 44 seconds later (at the end of the tag) it dropped to 7.0.
I fixed it that time, but I am not going to do it for everything. Dr. Dolittle is the latest softy...you go from the dts tag or the SRD tag to the fox tag and you'd swear you had somehow reverted back to an old badly aligned CP50 the fox audio is so quiet. Then along comes the feature proper and voila!...it's all OK again.
WHY?
Are they embarrassed by the tag?
Do the people at Fox think that if they turn down the tag...the operator will turn it up and thus the feature will be louder? Who knows?
I do know this...I'm tired of it. Either someone at Fox realizes their error and rectifies the situation with their release print volumes or she's going to be left in the trunks with the leaders.
It's a fantastic fanfare...be proud of it and give it some grunt!
That is all.
Sexy Beast has the fanfare 1 second out of sync. If you're running Sexy Beast in SRD the fanfare starts before the first searchlight! I saw this movie on the Fourth of July (UA Union Square/NYC) and thought the film had been misthreaded. Luckily everything was in sync after the logo.
Agreed, The Fox fanfare is the best intro ever.
---------------------------------------
There are several nice graphical ones, but none has the
INTRODUCTION effect of the 20th Century Fox fanfare
However as we dicussed ages ago that Fox seems to modify
the how they use the tag. Eg Abyss, Aliens, Alien etc,
I understand that mainly applies to Jame's movies, but there
are times where there it is missing the first few drum rolls,
and other times were there is no sound at all.
Agreed also about the sound level of the tag lately.
I went out and listened, you right the tag is very low level
compared to the rest of the level in Dr.Dolittle 2.
That said, I simply love the FULL SCOPE FANFARE, LOUD !!!
BILL.
In fact...it's best sounding on those amps that go up to 'eleven'.
Universal knows how to pull out one of its old logos, like the plane flying around the globe.
And what's up with MGM? Why does their lion always look so grainy?
I suspect the original color negative of the current roaring lion was shot decades ago, when film stocks were much slower and grainier. It's also likely the MGM Lion is spliced in as a duplicate negative, since there is probably only one "take" of the original negative. The original B&W roaring "Leo the Lion" MGM trademark dates back to 1927.
Some links to lion stories:
http://www.animalfair.com/petpourri/archive_leolion.html
http://www.cinerhama.com/jewish/goldwyn.html
http://www.mgm.com/corporate/
http://www.seeing-stars.com/Studios/MGMplaza.shtml
http://www.seeing-stars.com/Studios/MGM.shtml
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
By the way, speaking of studio logos, my buddies and I always thought that Universal Stiudios' opening logo from circa 1995 was much better than the current one (I think it debuted with "The Lost World"). Anyone agree?
I also sort of like New Line's logo, especially for "quiet" movies (e.g. not action, thriller, etc.).
quote:
The original B&W roaring "Leo the Lion" MGM trademark dates back to 1927.
And that's just the version where you can *hear* him roaring.
There was an earlier, silent-era Leo, too.
There's a famous publicity shot of the MGM folks re-shooting the intro & recording sound for the talkies. The photo is staged, but it's still famous.
I think the publicity photo you are referring to is in one of the links that I listed:
http://www.animalfair.com/petpourri/archive_leolion.html
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
Before, Leo just flapped his jaws & didn't even get a subtitle
[roar]
Just so we've veered completely off-topic, that site is not
completely up-to-date on Leo's final dispostion:
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/pet/leo.html
At the AMC Hamilton yesterday Kissing Jessica Stein was in an 88-seat hall and sounded about 5-10 db lower than the entire preshow. Yes, even the various AMC snipes sounded louder than the feature.
For the 80th anaversary of the big boat going to the bottom.
On test runs the sound would drop out for a few minutes
just after the the ship hits the ice berg.
So we set up to have a DVD player and monitor running in in bio
in tandam with the movie so we could hit A/V (on the Panastereo thingo) in case the sound dropped out.
We ordered new disks (Internation 'Titanic') and they worked fine.
But kept the DVD for backup.
The thing that amazed me was how hard it was to keep the DVD in sync
with the film, we had to pause it all the time because it kept
getting well ahead of the movie on the screen.
Clearly in Film we run at 24 FPS, Video/DVD (pal) run at 25 FPS
(US 60Hz use some kind of frame skipping) so I know thats the problem
But how do you (they) state the running time of a movie.
I have not timed it but I'd say the the video/dvd would be an easy
20 minutes shorter than the film version.
Bill.
These days we dont get to run too many 70mm prints.
I've got to tell you it was tempting to steal the DTS
and 20th Fox off the 70mm Titanic, but we have respect for the print.
I never got out there to hear what the DTS and 20th Fox logo's
sounded like as the speedco platter needed me there to run back
to it, to get it up to speed (the payout) is heavy!
Bill
The Fox Searchlight feature "Sexy Beast" was mentioned earlier for having weak volume on the title (as well as being out of synch on the print). The DD 5.1 audio on the DVD is in proper synch. However, I made the mistake of turning up the volume a bit since the logo volume was low. Then the levels of the boulder rolling down the hill at the end of the opening title was just deafening! Whoa, I was jumping for the volume control on my receiver.
quote:Yes, PAL video versions of standard 24fps films are sped up by about 4% and shown at 25fps. NTSC versions use 3:2 pulldown and run at more or less accurate speed.
The thing that amazed me was how hard it was to keep the DVD in sync
with the film, we had to pause it all the time because it kept
getting well ahead of the movie on the screen.Clearly in Film we run at 24 FPS, Video/DVD (pal) run at 25 FPS
(US 60Hz use some kind of frame skipping) so I know thats the problem
Getting back on topic: I've noticed that a few times in the theatre and been puzzled by it. I'm disappointed that the sound doesn't have much "oomph" to it during the fanfare, thinking that it's too bad I've paid to watch a movie at sub-optimal volume, but then when the movie itself gets going, it sounds fine.
MGM was formed by a merger brokered by the producer Irving Thalberg in the autumn of 1924, so I guess the logo must date from then.
Many of you have indicated that you really like the current Fox logo (when it is appropriately loud and dynamic, of course), however, I'd like to mention that I actually have come to dislike the current fanfare logo. Why? Because the current version is timed so it can include both the studio fanfare AND the "CinemaScope Extension." Okay, so you're saying you really love that piece of music. I do too...but "flat" movies shouldn't include it! That piece of music was introduced to be included on Fox's CinemaScope movies in the '50s. I feel it was effectively "re-introduced" for "Star Wars."
In the '70s and '80s, many of the Fox movies used a silent logo. But with the exception of the "Star Wars" movies (which were scope, and used the '50s version for the first movie and a newer, original recording for the others that I don't think was ever used on any non-"Star Wars" Fox movies) and "The War Of The Roses" (which was 'flat," but used the full fanfare with extension in an interesting way), I cannot think of very many other Fox movies that used the full version until they switched to the current version (in 1994?).
I'll bet that people around 30-35 years old or younger think of the full Fox fanfare with CinemaScope extension as "belonging" to "Star Wars," whereas people in their 50s or older probably (correctly?) associate the music with the CinemScope films of the 1950s.
And as far as "Die Hard" having one of the more effective renditions of the fanfare, I certainly agree, but does anybody know what was up with the image for the Fox logo that was used??? It was stretched outward for those first two "Die Hard" movies. It's as if a "flat" version was incorporated into the "scope" negative. (Don't grab your DVD to see what I'm referring to as they've used a different version.)
And as many others have noted, I've wondered why the volume level of the fox fanfare is often so weak. It's a great piece of music, needs to be played loud and dynamic! Preferably with the C-Scope extension.
That's the nice thing about running change-over -- you're always there to do that kind of stuff.
Frank
PS -- I'll tell you a funny story about that volume control later....right now I've got to go prep a print of CHELSEA WALLS -- new Ethan Hawke film that we are previewing tonite (BEFORE it opens in Manhattan on the 19 -- GO BROOKLYN!) And if I've already posted it here, let me know. I can't remember if I did or not.
I guess I'll have to rig up something similar to John Wilson's solution in order to have that "grunt" every time. IMNSHO when an audience hears that logo they know they're about to see a movie! Yes I'm biased--my dad was a music editor at Fox from the early '50's through the early '70's, and my mom was a dancer in several Fox films during the '50's (they met on the set of The Egyptian). My folks used to joke that we should stand and salute whenever we kids heard that logo.
Paul
The Sound of Music opens without any Fox fanfare -- extended or otherwise. That's because Fox largely abandoned the fanfare by 1965 (cost-cutting?) and The Sound of Music was filmed in Panavision.
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
Empire and Jedi used a (then) new recording of the fanfare conducted by John Williams, a version which most folks acknowledge lacked oomph. It wasn't entirely clear from the articles I read whether it was retained in those two SE's or replaced by a more recent one.
As for Moulin Rouge, I'll have to listen again but I always liked the way the film opened.
When we first thought of getting a customized snipe of our logo, the question came up, what do we put on the soundtrack? Some stock Filmack soundtrack (nice as some of their stuff is)? No. We were a rep house and I wanted something that harks back to the era of the great classic films that we show. We hit on using all the studios themes and rotating them. Charles Gerhardt, who had been recording some teriffic CDs of classic movie scores, had released one that had all five studio themes on it. MGM (including the lion roar), Warner Brothers, Universal, Selznick (also Newman) and of course Fox. Our program notes always explained that we play these themes as the curtain opens, covering our Brooklyn Center Cinema logo snipe, only out of deference to the great cinema classics and because they capture a feeling of the Hollywood of old.
But I have to admit it: the thing is, I do rotate them, yes, but it's like this: Fox - Unviersal - Fox - MGM - Fox - Selznick - Fox - Warner - Fox....etc. You get the picture. The only time I don't cover our logo with it is if the picture is from Fox and they are playing the Fanfare, then the BCC snipe plays in silence. And naturally, I turn up the level for the Fox opening, And it STILL can give me goosebumps after all these years.
Oh, for the salivating copyright lawyers in the audience, we have ASCAP and BMI banket licenses which means we can legally play anything in the theatre as long as it is licensed by either licensing entity.
quote:
Michael C: All the Star Wars movies -- including the 1997 re-releases and Episode 1 -- have used the 1953 CinemaScope fanfare.
Not true, though I don't need to elaborate on why as Steve Kraus has already corrected you (thanks, Steve).
I will simply add that if you get an opportunity to watch the "Star Wars" movies again, pay attention to the Fox Fanfare and you will clearly note the Fanfare audio for "Star Wars" ("Episode IV") is different from the others.
The video versions (VHS, Beta, laserdisc, selectavision), however, of "Star Wars" released at various times between 1982 and 1984 did have a DIFFERENT fanfare (both picture and sound) from the original theatrical prints. It appears they used the (then) current version. Upon the first widescreen laserdisc re-issue (1989) the original picture and sound logo could be seen and heard again.
quote:
With today's theater sound systems that 1953 recording sounds cheesy.
True, but many of us remember and know the movie with that sound. To change the audio just because it might be outdated is to change the movie. (Let's not give Lucas any ideas...)
For those 1997 Special Editions, the original fanfare audio was retained for each film, though the picture portion of the Fox logo was changed to a modern version (albeit a stationary one to accommodate the transition to the Lucasfilm credit that has the "CinemaScope Extension"). Given the numerous content changes made to the movies, I'm kinda glad they kept the original fanfare audio (even if it is a somewhat "lo-fi" recording).
There was a four-disc CD soundtrack set issued in 1993 that used the wrong version of the fanfare on the "Episode IV" disc. Perhaps this influenced you in thinking that all of the movies in the series used the same fanfare.
quote:
The Sound of Music opens without any Fox fanfare -- extended or otherwise. That's because Fox largely abandoned the fanfare by 1965 (cost-cutting?) and The Sound of Music was filmed in Panavision.
First, John Pytlak has saved me from correcting you on the "Filmed in Panavision" slip-up. Second, please read my comment about there not being very many Fox films that used the fanfare with extension more carefully. I thought I had clearly referred to the '70s and '80s. I'm aware of the numerous Todd-AO, D-150, and Panavision films Fox made in the '60s that didn't use the fanfare ("The Sound Of Music" being among them, as you pointed out); my comment wasn't about those productions or that era. And the last official Fox CinemaScope release was in 1967, so there's a reason why the fanfare with extension was "abandoned" around that time. ("reintroduced" for "Star Wars" in 1977...though perhaps a film or two may have used it between '67 and '77).
Back to the varying audio quality of the contemporary Fox Fanfare: I received an early copy of Fox's "From Hell" DVD and will mention that the fanfare included seems to be one that has decent volume and includes the "oomph" many of you have pointed out is lacking from many of their movies.
The 70mm print of "Die Hard" had a horizontally stretched (and very very grainy) version of the Fox logo, even though the audio quality was excellent. I never saw the 35mm version, but I assume the same abberation was present on the standard Dolby Stereo release too.
When I saw "The Abyss" in 70mm at NYC's Ziegfeld, I noticed the Fox logo was very very cropped. If I remember right, the "20" in the logo was about the only thing visible. Much of the rest of the logo was cropped off the bottom and a little off the top.
I don't understand why the older Fox logo was so screwed up on those two particular 70mm prints. I had seen the same Fox logo on normal 35mm 'scope prints reproduced properly, with the only subjective problem being a lot of negative space off to the left and right of the logo.
quote:
The 70mm print of "Die Hard" had a horizontally stretched version of the Fox logo, even though the audio quality was excellent. I never saw the 35mm version, but I assume the same abberation was present on the standard Dolby Stereo release too.
Yes, the "stretched" logo was in both the 70mm and 35mm prints. (Saw the movie once in each format.) If I remember correctly, it was "corrected" for the VHS (pan-and-scan) release, but left "uncorrected" for the first laserdisc version. It was "corrected" (again) for the Dolby Digital remastered laserdisc and subsequent DVDs.
I originally thought it was just a simple lab error, but when the laserdisc used the stretched version and when the "Die Hard 2" prints had it too, I thought, well, maybe it was intentional, or at least thought the mistake was funny or acceptable so they kept using it.
Bradīs idea with the extension lead is the way to go. That whole rack is run off only one breaker from memory.
The sound of course on the dts and the fox tag would have sounded the same as it does on every other dts release though. According to Karen at dts, the file is the same for every film.
Of course, the fox tag does change, but give it some grunt anyway... 
Nice to see you back here, by the way.
Did they advertise that screening as the 80th anniversary? I was wondering why it was back out of the blue...how did it go by the way?
John.
--jhawk
quote:
I believe the first time I heard the extended Fox Scope logo was HOW TO MARRY A MILLIONAIRE.
Nope. "How To Marry A Millionaire" *does* have the fanfare but *not* the CinemaScope Extension.
>>Of course, the fox tag does change, but give it some grunt anyway...<<
Thanks, though...
------------------
"It's not the years honey, it's the mileage". - Indiana Jones.
But I was under the impression that Newman wrote the extension for THE ROBE (although it was not used)...that they commissioned him to write it when he was working on THE ROBE score.
So if they didn't use it on THE ROBE and they also didn't use it on HOW TO MARRY A MILLIONAIRE which was the first CinemaScope film, when WAS it first used? Where are the film historians out there?
And I am curious as to how they placed the CinemaScope frame after the Fox logo in MILLIONAIRE, yet had no extension music to cover it?
Frank
I see the light....and it's carbon arc.
quote:
So if they didn't use it on THE ROBE and they also didn't use it on HOW TO MARRY A MILLIONAIRE which was the first CinemaScope film, when WAS it first used? Where are the film historians out there?
I've checked the DVD versions of a few Fox CinemaScope titles from 1953 and '54 and, assuming the original logos are present on the DVDs, here's a brief rundown that may help determine which film was the first to utilize the full fanfare with extension. (I'm unsure of the order these were completed and released.)
"Beneath The 12-Mile Reef" - silent logo
"Carmen Jones" - no logo
"There's No Business Like Show Business" - fanfare with extension
"River Of No Return" - fanfare with extension
"Demetrius And The Gladiators" - I don't have access to a copy at the moment, so cannot check (anyone out there have the DVD?)
quote:
And I am curious as to how they placed the CinemaScope frame after the Fox logo in MILLIONAIRE, yet had no extension music to cover it?
The "Street Scene" music begins at the "CinemaScope" credit.
I don;t even trust what they say in video liner notes, unless they are written by someone older than a generation X-er.
You remember the saying....Never trust anyone under 30.
quote:
Yes, the "stretched" logo (for "Die Hard") was in both the 70mm and 35mm prints...I originally thought it was just a simple lab error, but when the laserdisc used the stretched version and when the "Die Hard 2" prints had it too, I thought, well, maybe it was intentional, or at least thought the mistake was funny or acceptable so they kept using it.
It looks dumb. It's as though someone in the editing room grabbed an old Academy logo and tacked it on by mistake. I'm sure "Die Hard" was previewed, so why it was kept for "I" (and then "II" 
)? This certainly lowered my expectations of Fox. "Movies done wrong!"
As for what Frank Angel said:
quote:
I am very dubious of relying on what they do with the video releases, be they VHS or DVD, as you can't ever be sure of their authenticity; seems the video "director" have no problem manipulating elements; they seem to have little concern for the original work.
This may be true nowadays with the proliferation of special editions and director's cuts. However, it's always more work to make a change than not to make a change, and someone who has little concern for the original work is probably unlikely to take the effort to make a change. Of course, there are always errors, sometimes very obvious, like the one line of dialog that's missing from some video releases of 2001: ASO.
So it's fine to take video releases with a grain of salt, especially for older films. However, don't discount their authenticity automatically. The vast majority are probably quite accurate if for no other reason than that inaction prevails over action.
Does anyone know when the first 20th Century Fox sound logo appeared? Somewhere on MiniDisc I have the 1940s mono version from The Grapes of Wrath, which sounds terrible. Perhaps in the pre-sound era the organist would thump out something to the effect that sounded like percussion.
However, I just ran MOULIN ROUGE and found that the recording of the Fox logo on this title was one of the best yet. Kick that sucker up 3 to 4 points and listen pin them to their seats. The fact that the little guy at the bottom of the screen is conducting it with just as much wild energy as I do in my living room enchances the effect even more. Goosebumps gallore!
And just an aside (I know we are off-topic), anyone notice that the color in MR was VERY saturated with brilliant highlights and deep deep shadows? It looked almost like a true IBTech print. Perhaps that fact that we were lucky enough to get an EK showprint may have had something to do with it, but still, if they can get this kind of clarity look from today's technology, then at least we know it CAN be done right is there is a willingness to do it. Was anyone less impressed with the look of this film?
Frank
I've seen the light.....and it's carbon arc.
I agree that "Film Done Right" starts with the cinematography and good lab work, and today's film stocks can produce amazing results.
------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
quote:
The Fox fanfare & extension on SWEP2:AOTC still sounds very "blah". No oomph in it at all.
To no surprise, it sounded to me like the same audio that has been used for episodes I, V, and VI. The audio, however, seemed to start a hair sooner than the others. At first I thought it was out-of-sync. But maybe they felt the others started too late. But then, maybe I was just so excited to be watching a new "Star Wars" movie that I imagined all of this. Oh, and speaking of formula openings, what did you think of the...[SPOILER ALERT]...tilt-up following the scroll rather than the customary tilt-down?
quote:
The audio, however, seemed to start a hair sooner than the others. At first I thought it was out-of-sync.
Same here. I was puzzled when the CinemaScope extension hit, and the Lucasfilm logo didn't even start to fade in until a good two or three seconds later.
Also, I think the first piece of the Theme is WAY too loud. You can actually hear the volume drop down about ten seconds after the theme starts.
quote:
the [Fox Fanfare] recording is obviously not the usual version they use as stated earlier in these posts.
I've seen the movie four times now (in four different theaters; twice in 35mm, twice in DLP) and it sure sounds like the same recording used in Episodes I, V, & VI to me.
[QUOTE]Also, I think the first piece of the Theme is WAY too loud. You can actually hear the volume drop down about ten seconds after the theme starts.[QUOTE]
I didn't hear any obvious volume adjustments, either...unless you're thinking of a transition in the music (such as the "lower" section that accompanies the middle paragraph of the scroll...but that section has always been lower in volume than the rest of the main theme).
Sorry Michael. I didn't make myself clear. I meant it's not the same as their fanfare used on run-of-the-mill releases.
>>I didn't hear any obvious volume adjustments, either...unless you're thinking of a transition in the music (such as the "lower" section that accompanies the middle paragraph of the scroll...but that section has always been lower in volume than the rest of the main theme).<<
It's there on mine. I'll take another look to see what's scrolling up from the bottom mask at the time it happens and post later.
I've got the Fox fanfare running through at 9.0 down to 7.0 for the theme's commencement. Even then, the fanfare is still a bit soft...
Why is that? Fox? Anyone? Bueller?
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"It's not the years honey, it's the mileage". - Indiana Jones.